I hired a tile layer to work at my house and he is using this weird underlayment I believe it is made by kurdi it looks like orange waffles. Anyways i am curious about whether or not this stuff works good compared to the regular Hardy Board. What are your thoughts I just want to make sure this guy isn't a hack job operation
Tile Underlayment
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polarisrider1
New member
Actually the product you are referriing to is by Schluter and it is called "Ditra". Kerdi is a water proofing membrane. I suspect you have top notch installers since they are also giving you a five year warranty. And are willing to BS with you while they drink your beer!
so poo1 do you guys use Kerdi or some of the others in showers? any whoops showers with this system? I still kick it old school no not led .never a bad shower in 25yrs but the Kerdi systems look so fast and ez. I just get nervous with any joint in a shower I can still picture every glue joint in a shower I have done in my life.
any tips if I do move in to this century
I guess the part that makes me hold back on using is the joints from what I understand you make corners with a strip layed in morter then lay the floor to the corner with morter as the sealent in the corner? then the walls .guess I just dont get when morter became watter proof.
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polarisrider1
New member
I actually was a very hard sell to change over. I have completed the two day training course twice that Schuter offers since after my first year of using the system I had tons of questions. Best to sign up for the course and decide after that. I like that the water hits the drain quickly, without saturating the pan. Weep holes plug, pan slopes are consistant without shrinkage, Kerdi is a waterporrf membrane were Durock, denshield or Hardi will let vapor pass into the wall cavity. Kerdi does not wick water either. The seams are 2" overlap and after a two year flood test water only penetrated a quarter inch at max. Under the seams. Nobody plugs their shower drain for 2 yearshrs with standing water. Training is the key. There are some specifics that have to be followed. I also like having the control of installing the drain. I get the call for plumber failures way to much. Www.schlutersystems.com
I think it is the way to go with the trend of european style no curb no wall showers around hear any way have done 4 in the last 1.5 yrs.and with the aging boomers think will be getting alot more. it is a bitch mud setting a whole bath thought I was done with the mesh and mud set floors 20yrs ago.
at least then you could just rod it out now it is way to much free hand
at least then you could just rod it out now it is way to much free hand
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lenny
Guest
that's all you see Mike Holmes using and we all know he's the best, because he says so.
Polarisrider1, when doing a kitchen floor, what advantages is there with schluter orange stuff compared to the traditional underlayment plywood, durock, dense shield stuff. More flexibility? Home much flex do you need and why?I would think that flex would be the enemy. Also, on a kitchen floor water in a not an issue. I worked for a general contractor in Illinois and we did lots of tile and hardwood on homes build in the late 70's early 80's. Had some real funky foyer tile along with kitchen and bath tile. These people changed it out for current styles because what they had was outdated. 90% of the jobs we did tear out was on a plywood tile backer underlayment and there was never a bonding issue in fact the condition was as good as it was when it was laid. Grout joints all intact, they just wanted a style change. From what I experienced in foyer and kitchens, is there really a reason to come into the 90's when I cannot just walk into the local UP lumber yard and get the schluter. I have a kitchen job to do coming up and tile backer ply or durock is easily available, school me bro!
Polarisrider1, when doing a kitchen floor, what advantages is there with schluter orange stuff compared to the traditional underlayment plywood, durock, dense shield stuff. More flexibility? Home much flex do you need and why?I would think that flex would be the enemy. Also, on a kitchen floor water in a not an issue. I worked for a general contractor in Illinois and we did lots of tile and hardwood on homes build in the late 70's early 80's. Had some real funky foyer tile along with kitchen and bath tile. These people changed it out for current styles because what they had was outdated. 90% of the jobs we did tear out was on a plywood tile backer underlayment and there was never a bonding issue in fact the condition was as good as it was when it was laid. Grout joints all intact, they just wanted a style change. From what I experienced in foyer and kitchens, is there really a reason to come into the 90's when I cannot just walk into the local UP lumber yard and get the schluter. I have a kitchen job to do coming up and tile backer ply or durock is easily available, school me bro!
I have been using hardi backer for floors for yrs I install it with mortor or pl400 and the shoot it down with a 1.5 sheathing stapels.never had a issue.
last yr I had a hight issue with a solid plywood floor did not want to lay over plywood so I put down http://www.usg.com/durock-tile-membrane.html?intcmp=T9
durocks membrane more or less a 3 ft wide roll you put down with morter then use a mud knife to imbed membrane then tile over it as normal it kinda has a denshild concret coating on it and was less than 1/8 total.have been back no issues would use again if I had a hight issue. was not cheep but was fast so kinda a wash
last yr I had a hight issue with a solid plywood floor did not want to lay over plywood so I put down http://www.usg.com/durock-tile-membrane.html?intcmp=T9
durocks membrane more or less a 3 ft wide roll you put down with morter then use a mud knife to imbed membrane then tile over it as normal it kinda has a denshild concret coating on it and was less than 1/8 total.have been back no issues would use again if I had a hight issue. was not cheep but was fast so kinda a wash
polarisrider1
New member
This should help explain why, http://www.schluter.com/5372.aspx In the early 80's we used asbestos board, then went to plywood once asbestos health issues arose, then went to durock from around 90 to 2001 then to Hardi board then to schluter ditra. Just trying to find the best products for my customers. My call backs are for additional work and not for repairs. (enough stuff can go wrong on its own and I don't want to set myself up.) Remember this: People do not remember if you used a latex modified mortar or even the underlayment, but they do remember who installed it. I am fortunate enough that my customer base will spend the money for the "Good stuff". A lot of science has gone into tilework in the last 20 years. I stay up on the current trends and go to all the seminars on new products along with going to Coverings (our trade convention) to be Schooled on changes. Not everything works. Ditra came out about 15 years ago and I dabbled with it but kept Durock and Hardi board up until about 2 years ago. It is just a better engineered product for the task at hand. But requires some training and proper tools to install.
polarisrider1
New member
Lenny, If you have 1/4" Hardi avail. you will be fine with that. Just mortar it down and shoot 1 1/4" galvanized roofing nails into it. it has nail placement dimples to show where nails need to go. I use 1 1/4" nails when you install 1/4" hardi over 3/4" sub floor. You want nails to just penetrate the sub floor to prevent nail pops. It is best to have this cemical bond (mortar) and the mechanical bond (galv. nails) to have a secure underlayment. off set seams from sub floor min. 6" (more is better). Alkaline resistant tape the seams. You can do this as you set the tile to save time. Fiberglass Drywall tape is not recomended but better than nothing. A secret to sucess with Hardi is to wet sponge wipe down the board before installing tile, it removes dust to get a better bond and it slows down cure time and creates stronger bond strength. Same principle as if you was curing concrete.
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lenny
Guest
I would have to order the hardi and who knows when I would get it. Is there a problem, in your opinion, using wood underlayment or durock, that's all I have to choose from up here without ordering stuff. I always used galvanized screws on the wood or durock and shoot them every 5". I know it's slower but it seems to hold real well. How about full flex mortar or a latex additive. The tile was bought by homeowner at Lowes and he got full flexmortar and all supplies. Tile is glass
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I just bought 20 sheets of hardi today was going to do the 1/4 inch but it was only 9cents cheeper than 1/2.
the store I was at has 4x8 1/2 hardi so I just went with that alway kind of a bear to hall around and lay heavy 4x8 but I like em.
if doing a big floor with hardi I use a garden sprayer and wet the area I am going to morter prob a pain on a small floor but a big job works well.that hardi is worse than a sponge.
the store I was at has 4x8 1/2 hardi so I just went with that alway kind of a bear to hall around and lay heavy 4x8 but I like em.
if doing a big floor with hardi I use a garden sprayer and wet the area I am going to morter prob a pain on a small floor but a big job works well.that hardi is worse than a sponge.
polarisrider1
New member
Durock over wood any day of the week. Those expensive durock screws are a gimmick. do not use drywall screws since the lime in the mortar eats the heads off. Galv. roofing nails are aproved for durock and it speeds things up. Crank the air compressor up to 125 psi and fire away. Hitachi builds the best coil nailer for this. Durock is just messy to cut. scribbing it never makes the best of lines when snapping. I have a 4" mini type skill saw with a wet/dry blade to cut durock but needs to be done outside because of all the dust. For floors I use 1/2" durock or 1/4" Hardi or 1/8" ditra. see the pattern, thinner is what the builders want. best to not go over 12' span with 2"x10" 16 OC. TGI's best to check span with lumber yard specs to not exceed I over 360 (about a 1/4" deflection over 12 feet). I use Tec Full flex mortar. Latex is freeze dryed into it. just add water. Those days of adding an admix are long gone. You will not hurt anything by adding a latex admixture but it makes the mortar a real sticky pain to work with. Glass tile is another beast that requires another very high end mortar. Porcelines need a minimum of a latex full flex variety mortar since they are so impervious, that will give a chemical etch bond and a mechanical gripping bond to hold them down. Ceramic tiles can be set with just about anything. but please don't set with construction adhesive.
The key with all this is to stick a like product to a like product using a like product. wood is not a like product to tile, They both expand at much different rates.
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lenny
Guest
I know what you mean with the weight, I like the 3x5 durock. How much was the 4x8 hardi
polarisrider1
New member
I was told the 4x8 hardi is ment for exterior sheathing. The 1/4" hardi has a 1" gridding on the sheet. 1/2" Hardi is what I use on tub decks and shower walls if nothing is up already. when you order 10 skids at a time you get some fancy hardi elec. scissors to cut the board keeping dust down from your Hardi rep. I also sell such a tool for those who cannot buy 10 skids at a time.
I could see how the 4x8 sheets would work much better on 16" oc over the 3x5 sheets.
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lenny
Guest
Durock over wood any day of the week. Those expensive durock screws are a gimmick. do not use drywall screws since the lime in the mortar eats the heads off. Galv. roofing nails are aproved for durock and it speeds things up. Crank the air compressor up to 125 psi and fire away. Hitachi builds the best coil nailer for this. Durock is just messy to cut. scribbing it never makes the best of lines when snapping. I have a 4" mini type skill saw with a wet/dry blade to cut durock but needs to be done outside because of all the dust. For floors I use 1/2" durock or 1/4" Hardi or 1/8" ditra. see the pattern, thinner is what the builders want. best to not go over 12' span with 2"x10" 16 OC. TGI's best to check span with lumber yard specs to not exceed I over 360 (about a 1/4" deflection over 12 feet). I use Tec Full flex mortar. Latex is freeze dryed into it. just add water. Those days of adding an admix are long gone. You will not hurt anything by adding a latex admixture but it makes the mortar a real sticky pain to work with. Glass tile is another beast that requires another very high end mortar. Porcelines need a minimum of a latex full flex variety mortar since they are so impervious, that will give a chemical etch bond and a mechanical gripping bond to hold them down. Ceramic tiles can be set with just about anything. but please don't set with construction adhesive.
cool, I guess I have always called "Porcelain" glass. The job is Porcelain. Years ago an old tile guy told me that on residential work we would need a 1 1/4 thick floor under the tile so I have always used 1/2 durock on the 3/4 sub-floor. He talked about the deflection of the 3/4 sub-floor and the additional 1/2 cement board added rigidity to the entire floor system. Obviously we are assuming the floor joist are correct size for span. You do get visible deflection when watching people walk across bare 3/4 sub-floor. Seems like the height issue is always acceptable weather hardwood or carpet adjoining.
You think the galvanized screws are okay, probably overkill and time consuming? Being a professional sheet rock installer I am pretty fast with a screw gun, nothing like a nail gun but for the few tile jobs I do a year the system seems to work well. I get good piece of mind knowing the cement board is secure as tight as I can get it with the screws.
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polarisrider1
New member
Your "old tile guy" was correct up until hardi board came out. Durock was always 1/2" rule with 3/4" sub floor. 1/2' Durock has far less strength than 1/4" Hardi board. The TCA handbook changes yearly on such issues and this is one of them. The Tile Council had to rewrite the book when Schluter products first came out. TCA does the testing and rule making for the means and methods of proper tile installations. It is Our "Bible" for tile installations. Boca and ANSI regs. are written from this.
think they were 26 bucks.I dont like using Durock dont like to cut it I have never had luck using air tools to atach mess up the face and the party is over
I switched to hardi about 12 yrs ago I use a
http://www.senco.com/ToolDetails.aspx?k=3L0003N
with galvanised 1.5 to attach.
just hope you never have to pull up.I re did a bath I did about 9 yrs ago new home owner wanted a new style it was **** at least when doing demo on a old mud set floor you can get under and get some big chunks.did not work that way with glued and stapeld hardi ended up taking hardi up with sub floor was a faster way to go.word indestructable and regret stapels are so cheep and fast think a stapel every 6 in is overkill but I know it is stuck .and what are we talking 12cents a sheet or less
I switched to hardi about 12 yrs ago I use a
http://www.senco.com/ToolDetails.aspx?k=3L0003N
with galvanised 1.5 to attach.
just hope you never have to pull up.I re did a bath I did about 9 yrs ago new home owner wanted a new style it was **** at least when doing demo on a old mud set floor you can get under and get some big chunks.did not work that way with glued and stapeld hardi ended up taking hardi up with sub floor was a faster way to go.word indestructable and regret stapels are so cheep and fast think a stapel every 6 in is overkill but I know it is stuck .and what are we talking 12cents a sheet or less
polarisrider1
New member
This is the place to go if you guys have questions, http://www.tileusa.com/handbook_faq.htm
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lenny
Guest
I can understand not liking cutting durock but that's something I did on a daily or weekly when hanging rock in homes so it's just normal but hey,, I'm no idiot. If you guys are saying hardi all the way than I'm gonna have a talk with the yard and see if they can start to stock some. Thanks guys, I'm outta here!