What Do You Like About Your 4s Sled?

[indybru]

I'm addressing this from both my wife's and my persective. We recently bought a noncurrent 2012 MXZ 600 Ace TNT from Tmberline Sports mid feb. What I like is my wife loves this sled so much she will snowmobile much longer in terms of time on the trails and mutiple days without any complaints. Enough said for me, excellent purchase.

My wife, loves the ease of steering (better for her than my 2010 Renegade 600 Etec) and her old 04 Ski Doo GSX. Also she loves the ride and the easy throttle (we had that feature way back when with Polaris). She likes that it's quick, but quiet, we did a saddlebag trip and it was nice not to deal with oil and the smell of oil on the clothes. I think we checked and got 27 MPG so it's a lower octane than my etec plus you have a long range between gas which is nice in the spring when you deal with bare roads to get gas.

This snowmobile is so nice I can't say enough about it. We did have the oil changed about 1050 miles. If you saw two big smiles riding the western UP, Keweenaw march 1st to the 7th it was us.

 

[groomerdriver]

Quiet, no smell on the riding gear, zero maintenance except for oil & filter change once a year, engine braking in the corners, and regular octane gas with good mileage.

pretty much X2 and I'll throw in engine longevity. Over 13,000 miles on my Vector and still running strong!

 

[groomerdriver]

Not to start a brand bashing contest as i am not a Yamaha fan, but two weeks ago, I followed a blue Yamaha, either an RX-1 or Apex (two pipes out the back of the seat) on the trail for about 10-miles. He had Amsoil stickers all over it, so i assume that is what he was runninging in it. This sled smelled so bad my eyes were watering from the fumes and it left a very bad taste in my mouth. For you guys talking about not smelling like two-stroke, was there something wrong with this guys sled, or what? The sled looked nice and well taken care of, but damn did it smell vile.

Some early RX-1's (maybe only the first year?) had ring issues and will use a lot of oil.

 

[Hoosier]

Havent seen any posts about the poo fst...do those hold up? Just curious cause i like the ride of the iq chassis.

 

[Deleted member 10829]

Hoosier,

I had a 2006 FST Classic and put 12,000 miles on it before I sold it and it was still going strong. I think they hold up pretty well.

 

[anonomoose]

yeahhh right keep telling your self that when riding down the trail .
the only place a 4s wins in the mountains is on hero snow when all you are doing is blasting shoots.
I am the first to admit I am not the best rider out in the woods but I can hold my own and I have ridden a few submarines in the back woods and never have I said oh this is great I love it every time I let off how it dives that's great.
I know guys who build custom 4s ultra light high power yammis for a living and yes they ride them but 3x the mi on 2s in the hills. all the skill in the world will never overcome a extra 175 over the ski's

You were pitchin a good argument til you blabbed that last one out. Fact is they are NOT that much heavier not even half that much heavier...and my point is that once you "gear up" with all your "stuff" and jump on the sled, they just aren't that much heavier, and as I posted before a good skilled rider used to the sled can "do it" just fine.

If we are talking endless powder now...they don't make a sled light enough to handle that without plowing, diving and getting buried.

Combine the fact that we just don't get enough powder dump in the midwest to cause turtling, and once you put some serious skis on the sled to keep it up on top, and the gas mileage and the longevity of the 4 stroke..no smokers...there is no point in buying a 2 stroke anymore. Course there are guys who fought Efi, electric start, and reverse too...but they all come around eventually...even a bone head sees daylight once in awhile...but then the snowmo makers thank you for tradin in ever couple years chasing that tired 2 stroke, hoping to stay ahead of the "oh-no" burn down curve.

On the positive side, 2 stroke smokers have definitely "filtered up" and thinned down the amount of smoke they blow, but doing so has just trimmed the life of the engine as well....so instead of getting more life from the motor, you get even less...so what's the point?

Strong engine design across the 4 stroke inventory means you can do your thing with something that will give you respect and keep you sledding instead of waiting for parts. At least the older sleds LASTED longer before blowing apart....but then they were far cheaper than the bread you have to use to buy one today. Graphics and suspension improvements aside...they really haven't changed much except to try and lean them down enough to get past the Government inspections.

Most who are objective about this....and truly compare....make the move...and that's why big guns like skiddoodle...jumped on the wagon and continue to expand the line ups in 4 stroke technology. NOBODY was more committed to 2 stroke than Doodle....but they could see where this was all headed and quietly changed focus.

But be my guest...fight like a dog, and be the last man standing in stinky snowmobile clothing...just makes life more interesting UNLESS you are they guy standing NEXT to you after a good smoking!

 

[anonomoose]

Like everybody else that has riden a while, 2 stroke machines were the only way to go until the epa crunch. I was lucky to get many years of service from 2-strokes without a meltdown as I would flip them every 3-5 years until I got bit in 2006 and had a catastrophic failure on one. I jumped on to a 2007 Apex GT and just loved that thing.

The good: It was a well made dependable machine that handled nice once set up to my liking. Good on gas (87 octane) and did not have to worry about adding oil. It had arm stretching torque and sounded throaty and bad***. 3 years and 6000 miles later I had performed nothing but routine maintainence for the most part and sold it with confidence that the new owner was getting a good machine with alot of life still left in it.
The bad: The machine had what I considered excessive back shifting/engine braking to the point where you almost never used the brakes. It went through 2 sets of exhaust donuts in 6000 miles that were a pita to change. Oil changes were a pita. The machine was too heavy up front and with all the weight on the skis it would just spin the track out of the whole with all that torque (even with 192 pics). The machine was heavy for the type of riding I do which is alot of ditchbanging. I know thay are all heavy when stuck but shave a 100+ pounds off a sled and I would rather dig that one out all day long!

It seems Yamaha has addressed many of the issues with that particular sled but I think that weight has not. I am getting close to thinking about a new sled as my 2010 600 etec is closing in on its warranty. I am leaning back towards a 4 stroke but am still on the fence. I like the 900 Ace in the XS chassis as the weight is kept down somewhat on that sled but I would need to ride one first and let it age/mature a bit as well. Curious as to weight on the Viper as well. Time and scavenging through the forums till a test ride will tell!

Unc...the makers all feel that anyone who wants a 4 stroke won't be taking them off trail much. So they keep the tracks shorter, the skis standard additions, and the lugs short too.

You want a powder 4 stroke....there isn't many to be had!

On the other hand, put some seriously wide powder skis on that machine, lengthen the track, uncouple that suspension (if you can find one) and put 2 inch lugs on that beast and it will down right surprise you. I can gas the my machine and keep the skis completely clear of the snow...so tell me how weight plays a part in that?

Yeah, try and put one in the fluff out of the box...and they will probably turn you off...but rather than spending 10k each year on a new "try" at what the makers offer you can save some coin by doing the above and having something that will take you for a REAL ride. I preface the above with the need to have spent many hours off trail and learning how to get the most out of the machine. While I hated the suspension of the RX-1 Mountain, the sled was still lots of fun in the deep and you could grab hair raising power if you got it on another snowmobile track...never mind a trail. Heavy is not always a bad thing if you know how to use the weight to your advantage. Engine braking bad...not really if you don't do the old lady drive of hand off the throttle..who says you take it off unless you want to stop and then you don't even need a grabber brake...cause they slow you down just fine. Keep the nose up shorten the straps up, take the stabilizer off, and go LONG on that track in both length and lug...and the beast comes alive.

I have jumped around and played with this for several years now and I have got a decent setup going in a swithcback turbo with long lugs and super wide skis.

The closest thing to out of the box was the nice turbo cat EXT...and I should have kept that beast despite it's crazy horse power and lengthened it even more....right from the factory. That monster was awesome as long as you kept it going....but then every sled works better moving. Once stopped...grab the shovelsl!

If I have one gripe about these things and that is that the reverse takes some real skill to get to work right, and is THE hardest thing to teach a novice. But once you learn a trick or two even that is something that can be over-come!

Yeah, I know light is a good thing but seriously....once you're stuck...as in not moving, even 250 pounds is TOO heavy. And we aren't there with a 2's yet either.

 

[uncle_ed]

I hear what your saying Moose. Shoot, sometimes half the fun is tweaking it the way you want so the sled performs to your liking!
I think the oem`s are doing more to making them handle better out of the box these days with longer tracks and deeper lugs on the 4`s to better balance out the sled. I am leaning toward a 137 for my next set up in hopes of gaining traction and better flotation. I am not brand loyal and still on the fence as far as a power plant though and like the choices I am seeing out there. I want 600 2 stroke class power as that's all I need whether it be in a 4`s set up or another 2 stroke. I guess the next few seasons of test rides will tell.

Until then ......I hear you calling ma......but Im having too much fun to come in just right now...........

 

[longtrack]

I paid 8400 for a 09 gsx Skidoo and I was offered 5500 with 5100 miles on it by a Doo Dealer. These 4 strokes are holding their value. If you search Craigs List or look in the JD Classifieds, good luck finding a 1200 Doo and if you do they want more than its worth or its already been sold. I did have problems with this 09 this year. The Stator went out and I should have sold it because the 09 was the first year 1200 and they had some problems. My other 2 have been Gas and go.

We have 3 1200s and they are more trouble free than my kids Yamaha, but the push Turbo on the Yamaha is tearing the rest of the Sled up. The 1200 Doo 4 stroke is as fast as a 2 stroke Doo 800. The Yamaha with the Turbo is so far ahead of my 1200 Doo its a joke.

 

[journeyman]

If the new Viper holds together (chassis wise) I think it will be a favorite for the trails and even some off trail. I have ridden them and believe me they feel so much lighter and steer really easy. One of the units I rode was very strong performance wise so I am hoping this is how they come out of the crate. No one knows the true weight but grab the front end on a new Viper. Myself I could pick it up by the front bumper to my chest. Can't do that with a Nytro.

 

[uncle_ed]

If the new Viper holds together (chassis wise) I think it will be a favorite for the trails and even some off trail. I have ridden them and believe me they feel so much lighter and steer really easy. One of the units I rode was very strong performance wise so I am hoping this is how they come out of the crate. No one knows the true weight but grab the front end on a new Viper. Myself I could pick it up by the front bumper to my chest. Can't do that with a Nytro.

I believe that sled is going to be a homerun for Yamaha!

 

[anonomoose]

I don't know about that moose....Shame the yamaha's??? A little biased?? The FST would be my last choice of 4 strokes...they are even heavier than my attack, and you had to turbo those things, to get them to move.
If you haven't ridden a 2011 or newer yamaha...then your view will be tainted...they have improved their suspension calibration alot, and the power steering really works well.
Big difference between my 07 and a 2011 yami 4 stroke.

Two of my good friends rode FST's the last 4 seasons...BOTH traded them in for rush's...both said they were just too heavy, and wore them out on long rides.

I am in the same boat...as much as I like my attak...it's a heavy pig...lots of pluses to the four strokes....BUT....I am leaning towards a lighter two stroke for my next sled...I really don't care that much about fuel economy, or fit and finish...I care more about having fun....and right now on tight wooded trails, the attack wears me out...it's too damn heavy.
Plus...how many of you keep a sled more than 5 years??? I know I don't....every two to three years I am trading for a different sled...so am I really saving money on a 4 stroke???
Cleaning power valves is no big deal...takes less than an hour...ever try to change the oil on a yamaha 4 stroke??
Everybody justify's their sled purchase for their own reasons...for me running an average of 1,200 miles per season and trading every three years...there is no real cost savings running a 4 stroke....unless my two stroke blows up...and yes...I have blown up a few of those in my time (all but one was yellow).

If somebody comes out with a 130 HP Four Stroke, that weighs 460lbs dry...Im on it.
Until then...Im going back to two strokes (don't know which brand yet)...To each their own guys...ride what you like, and have fun.

We agree on one thing...the attack is heavy...too heavy? No doubt it is close to if not stock and there is the first problem. Power, long life, lousy skis, and mediocre suspension...about sums it up. Lighten the sled, put better skis on it, put a better suspension in it...and you have the making of a sled you can keep riding for a decade or more. This could be a sled you never sell!

Look...yamaha has had suspension design problems forever! Lettin cat build one for them, should tell the tale there!

No I haven't ridden a yamaha over the last two years and can't say that they have improved or not, but it doesn't surprise me that Cat is selling them a suspensions because they haven't built a good one for a long time.

No I have owned Yamaha and Cat and Polaris and Doo....and I give just rewards to those who have done the job on suspensions but yammy just hasn't gotten it yet..hence the buy into Cat stuff.

As my previous post says, out of the box I am not impressed with any of the makers for off trail. They seem to know that it is much easier to just build a 2's for that job and move on. But if you are willing to mod one out the 4's does a more than decent job and spend more time riding than digging them out.

Just because your friends traded their FST's in doesn't mean the sleds were bad...just means they didn't get the spindles the sled needed and skis to keep the sled up on top. Good luck with the rush...great sled....just no life to them...so keep trading and they will be fine.

Yeah, the Yamaha oil change or more precisely the filter replacement was a bit of a joke but overall the 4 stroke life is paying everyone who owns them long term dividends. If you just want to trade for fun...you can do it...but the 4 stroke engine is NOT the reason your doing it, unlike the life of a 2's.
If you don't want to trade every year and spend 10k on sleds, then get a 4 and mod it out and stay away from the yamaha suspension save for the new viper deal with Cat....this might be a great marriage for yamaha to get a first class suspension in their line up...finally!

 

[G]

Trying to cost-justify a four stroke over a two stroke or visa versa is a dead end. They all cost a lot of money. On the four strokes the rest of the sled needs maintenence equal to any two smoker. The Yamis eat exhaust donuts and you have to do something different to the front ends because the stock arrangement needs help. If you plan on keeping a sled for awhile you purchase the extended warranty. It is no longer wise to ride any color new sled without a warranty. On my travels this winter i saw a boatload of XC Pols. There are still a pile of these things out there running around as some folk's primary ride. And why not? They were a pretty good sled at the end. They are also very user friendly. Any useful idiot can keep one going for a long time. Not so the new stuff. The average backyard mechanic cannot fix a turbo on your FST or troubleshoot your E-Tec. AC and Yami are FI's or DI's and they either work or they don't. Some of the sleds we have are not as much fun to ride as the old XC's. A decent guy on an XC could hold off a great many of the new higher center of gravity pogo sticks we have now on a tight trail. In my opinion we have never needed all the high travel suspensions less than we do now. If the trails are rough our group goes to the firelanes. We simply do not ride rough trails so why do we need all that suspension? If I could buy a brand new 2002 ZR 800 I would in a jiffy. There, lets see if that gets anybody stirred up.

 

[anonomoose]

Okay, I'll bight!

I agree that buying to save gas or jumping because the sleds are that much better really doesn't make a bunch of sense, except that if you bail out of a 2 before it's timely death throws, you move to a 4 that won't have the issues of the 2 any time soon. It has already been stated that the 4's are holding well above average on resale...and you get I believe a better shot at reliability.

Nothing like burning down on a long weekend and looking for parts all over tar nation to take the edge off a great time.

I also won't disagree on warranty because the more complicated equipment can be expensive to replace IF you have to replace it.

No more issues with stators, and carb boots, power valves sticking, and we all know the issues with gasoline that isn't up to par. Who can't find the drain plug and change the oil...or suck it out of the reservoir? Plugs....when was the last time you changed them on your truck? It's all about riding...not wrenching!

Remember pulling the carbs every fall to get the machines going? Would you really go back to the sluggishness of one of those for the fairly reliability of EFI? There is no going back...it works way too well to do that.

Yeah the turbo could be a problem IF they go 30k miles....how long will that take you realistically?

As far as suspensions go...the height comes when you are off trail....my old Johnson and Evinrude with 25 inch wide track trucked like bull dozers until the frames began to drag then they didn't move at all. Long travel is a GOOD thing on your back and neck and legs otherwise you are bobbin up and down and wearing out your drinking arms.


If you keep a sled for say 8 years and 20k miles....the price difference...we are talking cost of ownership here, is significant.


Most guys who make the move won't go back...and that saz a bunch to me...weight be damz... BTW what's an exhaust donut? Do you eat them with beer chasers?

 

[fusion]

I will say this, after this past weekend, and weekend prior, on great trails, those Yamaha's have really swayed me again. ( I go back and forth on what to buy)
They are excellent sleds for groomed trails and the engine performance is so consistent.
I look at a lot of Doo's sitting at bars, there's a ton of them out there. When you look at them side by side with a Yamaha there's no comparison in terms of the quality, and fit and finish.
As much as I'd like to have an E-Tek, they just look cheap to me and the more I look at them, the less I like. (Don't look like they could take a pounding)
If, and it's a big if at this point, I decide to roll with 2 sleds again next year (I'm leaning toward selling 1 and not replacing)....
It will probably be a 2013 Apex leftover. The motors on those things are just too much fun.
And I'm too nervous to look for the same performance in a 2-stroke 800, with all the horror stories I've heard.

 

[G]

As far as gas mileage if you ride like a pussy yes you will get wonderful gas mileage on your Apex or Vector. If you are playing with a 800 2 smoke Pol switch you will be within a gallon on a tank. Been there done that. The big four smokes are so heavy be it an Apex or a Vector or a 1200 Gade or a prehistoric FST they simply are not in the same league as a modern oil sipping 2 smoke. Lighter by at least 150 lbs the 2 smokers will destroy a comparable 4 pig in every catagory except for maybe resale. WHO CARES????? Do you ride for resale or do you ride for fun?

 

[whitedust]

As far as gas mileage if you ride like a pussy yes you will get wonderful gas mileage on your Apex or Vector. If you are playing with a 800 2 smoke Pol switch you will be within a gallon on a tank. Been there done that. The big four smokes are so heavy be it an Apex or a Vector or a 1200 Gade or a prehistoric FST they simply are not in the same league as a modern oil sipping 2 smoke. Lighter by at least 150 lbs the 2 smokers will destroy a comparable 4 pig in every catagory except for maybe resale. WHO CARES????? Do you ride for resale or do you ride for fun?

I ride for fun & much of the time alone so getting home under Yamaha power is high on my list. I rode 2s alone too but did a lot of walking so done with that forever. Nothing gets better mpg than an Ace & 4s are at the top of most organized mpg comparos. Doo DI 2s sip oil but is that a good thing for the engines? Yes a good thing for EPA but engines need lubrication. Maybe cats new DSI 600 is the way to go makes more sense to get oil to engine parts. I know you do a lot of ditch banging so road right there & help will come on a public road so no big deal if you have a 2s burndown. For me sometimes I can be 50 miles from any help no time for engine failures.

 

[bearrassler]

I don't ride a four stroke but what Grub said about mileage is right on the mark. Saturday two of us went for a ride, I have a 2012 SBA, the other guy has a 2006 Attack, we went 80 miles cross country in 12 plus inches of soft snow, I took 7.8 gallons, the Attack 8.3 gallons, next we went 85 miles on groomed trails with a few inches of snow on top, I took 6.3 gallons, the Attack 5.6 gallons, next we went about 100 miles on groomed trails with 3 to 6 inches of snow on top, we both took 8.2 gallons. so he took 2 tenths less than me. The Attack is a great trail sled but has many shortcomings off trail. Also I don't know Grub personally but do know his area. There are many ditch trails but also some of the most remote trails in the US, and if he rides in NW Ontario it is even more so. Also there is very little traffic and no cell service in most of the remote areas. If a sled broke down between Fourtown and Waskish or Baudette and Big Falls in NW MN you could be there a couple days before someone comes by. We do a few overnight trips and the only time someone had to come and pick up a sled it was the Yamaha Attack, so bad things can happen to any sled.

 

[craze1cars]

Lighter by at least 150 lbs the 2 smokers will destroy a comparable 4 pig in every catagory except for maybe resale.

I agree with you entirely on your fuel mileage comments. When sleds are beat on, the fuel mileage difference all but disappears. Heck, I ran 150 HARD miles with a buddy on a Phazer this past trip...both 4 strokes, but his 500 cc sled vs my 1200 cc sled. He used more gas than I did. Of course he was FORCED to cram it to the bars just about everywhere, while I could run the twisties as hard as I wanted to while rarely exceeding 1/2 throttle. And last year after an unfortunate "unexpected closed gas station" incident, my brother and I actually completely ran out of gas after about 140 miles of HARD riding together. Him on a 500SS 2 stroke Doo, me on a 1200 4 stroke ski-doo, both with identical tanks, same fill-up time, and ridden at the same blistering pace all day. I went about 4 miles farther than he did...which is meaningless. When pushed hard, fuel mileage between most sleds gets almost entirely erased. When put-putting and cruising, that's the only time some shine over the others. And that's how many ride, even if you and I don't, so it is a valid concern for many buyers and rightly so.

But I feel the need to quote myself from earlier regarding your grossly exaggerated and sweeping 150 lb comment, similar to what Ezra stated earlier:

"Directly from Doo specs:

1200 Gade: 532
900 Ace Gade: 503
ETEC 600 Gade: 481

The weight penalty of a 4 stroke can be as small as 24 lbs...or as much as 51 lbs...depending on your engine choice."

And I'll refer back to the same post, and the absolute fact, that I personally weighed my wet-ready-to-ride 2008 Switchback 700 against my wet-ready-to-ride 2010 Renegade 1200, and the 4 stroke was LIGHTER by just a few pounds. I assure you this shocked me more than anybody...and I was the one running the scales LOL...

Now...throw a Yamaha Apex into the mix and compare it to a brand new lightweight 2 stroke? Then I think your 150 lb difference may be getting closer to correct. Those are portly suckers. And I owned one, and like it....so this is not a bash.

My main point is that the weight difference varies WIDELY by which exact sleds and models you are comparing. It is FAR from an automatic 150 pound weight penalty. And depending on riding style, any weight penalty may mean absolutely nothing to some people...

But I don't give a flying crap what anyone chooses to ride. If you want a brand new ZR800 cuz you know that's what you like, just build one up and enjoy it! That would be cool!

Another senseless yet interesting comparo (and one heck of a coincidence) that made me laugh when I looked it up: Claimed dry weight of 2002 ZR800: 507 lbs. Claimed dry weight of 2013 MXZ 1200 TNT: 507 lbs.

Zero pounds difference is a long ways from 150 lbs LOL...

 

[journeyman]

Doo DI 2s sip oil but is that a good thing for the engines? Yes a good thing for EPA but engines need lubrication.

Let's look at the 800 Ski-Doo block. Talk to any Doo mechanic. It's not a matter IF it's going to fail, it's when. They have had a long run of crank bearing failures and reducing oil to them isn't helping. This is a fact!! I ride with several riders with the Apex model sleds and as far as running reliability and gas mileage they are on a different level than most sleds. Myself I still have a 10 yr. old 2 stroke (Yamaha) and it has been very reliable to this point (9000+ miles) but I just blew a reed a couple weeks ago. So it is starting to show some signs of doing some maintenance. Plus it never misses a gas station. Lately I am the type of person that keeps a sled for awhile (raising kids) so a 4s is a good fit for me. I have ridden my buddies Attak many times and spent a couple days on one last year in the UP. I can keep up with darn near anyone in the trails with it too. It rides and handles very good. Maybe a less than experienced rider has issues with them but I am almost 50 and have been riding since I was a young kid so I am no novice. If I was a ditch banger I would think twice but those days are gone for me.

As said, if the Viper holds up this may fill some voids for Yamaha. I thought it felt pretty light.

Another note. Don't get me wrong, I am not knocking the Ski-Doo. I'll give them credit for making big strides in gas mileage and epa for the 2 stroke motor and have kept it alive. The 800 has good power but IMHO, get the extended warranty and trade/sell when it's over. Personally I would rather have the 1200 motor which is a good one but I would rather have it in a HO version which they don't seem to want to build. I'll admit Doo has been setting the standard for ride and handling for several years. That's why you see so many of them. I have spent many miles on those too and the easy stand up style is what makes them seem like they ride better allowing your legs into the equation. All in all the 4 different brands have good and bad points. Just gotta pick what works for you.