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What you all think??
- Thread starter shelby369
- Start date
What dcsnomo states is true. Pick up an underperformer and grow it. Proven business plan. Is AC a suitable underperformer for HD? They are the second to last place sled manufacturer. They do not sell anywhere near the four wheelers and side by sides that POL does. One reason for this is because their four wheelers and side by sides suck. ( Read some customer reviews. ) However it is a tough market. HD has more resources than AC which is running on fumes. But they don't have the resources of Pol or Doo. They also do not have the market penetration of POL or Doo. It would take one heck of a product to unseat Pol in side by sides or Doo in sleds. And it would take years. The only reason I could imagine that HD might pump money into AC would be to try to steal some sled business back from Poo since Poo has stolen so much bike business from HD. But this would be a stupid spiteful act that. Big Corps don't do things like that. A couple of more low snow years and AC will fold by itself and maybe, just maybe somebody capable might pick it up off the bonepile for little or nothing and continue on. But I doubt it. Again, it is a tough market. Only the big boys with lots of resources will survive. POL and Doo within 5 years. That will be it. You heard it here first.
Many think the same as you that Yamaha is done with sleds & will just supply 4s engines to the sled OEMS. AC does not have much market share in any motor sports niche to buy as far as HD consideration. Yamaha 50th coming up this next model year & will be very telling productwise regarding their sled future. I highly doubt HD dealers want a sled or ATV floorplan to support they are happy with HOGs. IDK how AC future will play out but true they could end up on the bone pile within 5 years. More low snow winters in USA could stunt all OEM snowmobile sales which would be very tuff for Yamaha & AC to survive with their sleds. For me if Yamaha gets out of snowmobiles I would buy a 4s doo and hope for the best so AC would not get my biz by using Yamaha engines with a Yamaha exit. Very troubling to go down to just Poo and Doo for sleds but it is always all about profit in any biz.
A couple of you have commented on how HD dealers might feel about this. You might be right. I am not an HD dealer, consumer, nor do I know any dealers. But, you might also be wrong.
Allow me to explain:
Polaris, Yamaha, and BRP have a global view of the market. They market to a powersport consumer. They are interested in share of powersport, and satisfying consumer demands as they change and as the consumers age. With the exception of Polaris I can buy snowmobiles, ATVs, watercraft, and motorcycles from one brand, one dealer. Being a Polaris customer can mean multiple purchases of the brand throughout my life. It's cheaper to sell more stuff to your existing customer than to get a new one.
HD and its dealers sell not to powersports consumers, they sell to motorcyclists. Only motorcyclists. I am 63 years old and am a powersport consumer. I am not a motorcyclist. In my 63 years on the planet HD has never sold me anything, and never will. Its not that I don't like HD, it's a great product. But I'm not a biker.
I used to sell market research, and I'm gonna guess that this increasing popularity of ATVs and ORVs is starting to cut into motorcycle sales. At the very least, that guy with the Harley might've bought one, and he didn't buy it from a Harley dealer. Or maybe that Harley is sitting in the garage a bit more now as he takes the ATV out with the family, or as he gets older, thus lengthening the purchase cycle on a new Harley.
If I'm an HD dealer I can see this as people pull into that Polaris dealer across the highway and leave with all these new toys. And I can sell them nothing. My building, my inventory, my employees, and this person didn't even consider me as a purchase point for power sports because I DON'T HAVE ANY!!
As a dealer, I want those people to shop at my HD store. But yet, we know that an HD brand ATV, snowmobile, or watercraft will fail, because HD only stands for motorcycles. When Pepsi wanted to branch out into a different part of the consumers' day they didn't roll out a Pepsi orange juice, they bought Tropicana. Then they bought Quaker. Now you can have Pepsi products all day long.
If an HD dealer wants to grow he has to compete with these powersports superstores, and he can't, because he only sells motorcycles, which is just one of the 4 powersports segments.
Is AC a good idea? ****, I don't know, but if I'm a dealer I can see my customers going across the street to buy powersports that I can't sell. It's called share of powersport dollar.
Or not, like I said, you might be right!
Allow me to explain:
Polaris, Yamaha, and BRP have a global view of the market. They market to a powersport consumer. They are interested in share of powersport, and satisfying consumer demands as they change and as the consumers age. With the exception of Polaris I can buy snowmobiles, ATVs, watercraft, and motorcycles from one brand, one dealer. Being a Polaris customer can mean multiple purchases of the brand throughout my life. It's cheaper to sell more stuff to your existing customer than to get a new one.
HD and its dealers sell not to powersports consumers, they sell to motorcyclists. Only motorcyclists. I am 63 years old and am a powersport consumer. I am not a motorcyclist. In my 63 years on the planet HD has never sold me anything, and never will. Its not that I don't like HD, it's a great product. But I'm not a biker.
I used to sell market research, and I'm gonna guess that this increasing popularity of ATVs and ORVs is starting to cut into motorcycle sales. At the very least, that guy with the Harley might've bought one, and he didn't buy it from a Harley dealer. Or maybe that Harley is sitting in the garage a bit more now as he takes the ATV out with the family, or as he gets older, thus lengthening the purchase cycle on a new Harley.
If I'm an HD dealer I can see this as people pull into that Polaris dealer across the highway and leave with all these new toys. And I can sell them nothing. My building, my inventory, my employees, and this person didn't even consider me as a purchase point for power sports because I DON'T HAVE ANY!!
As a dealer, I want those people to shop at my HD store. But yet, we know that an HD brand ATV, snowmobile, or watercraft will fail, because HD only stands for motorcycles. When Pepsi wanted to branch out into a different part of the consumers' day they didn't roll out a Pepsi orange juice, they bought Tropicana. Then they bought Quaker. Now you can have Pepsi products all day long.
If an HD dealer wants to grow he has to compete with these powersports superstores, and he can't, because he only sells motorcycles, which is just one of the 4 powersports segments.
Is AC a good idea? ****, I don't know, but if I'm a dealer I can see my customers going across the street to buy powersports that I can't sell. It's called share of powersport dollar.
Or not, like I said, you might be right!
like I said the dealer was a dealer I went to often back in the day who attempted to become a all in power sports / HD dealer and 1 I drove past from time to time . the 1 eventually branched in to 2 completely diff buildings in the same parking lot 2 totally diff atmospheres totally diff service centers . the other kept together less than 3 yrs and closed the power sports end completely. just not the same consumer at all . how many sons of arthritis really want to get off there lazy boy on wheels and head out on to a dirty bumpy trail when they can be rolling down a paved interstate on there 25k bike. the Yamaha and zuk dealers are totally diff consumer than HD. **** I know Polaris dealers that don't even have street bikes . and Indian dealers who have no sleds or atv.
poo is making way more on bikes than sleds. if HD wanted to sell a SXS they could very EZ contract it out with cat or poo or BRP or kymco and slap some underpowered loud v twin in it for way way way less money and risk than buying the company . kind of like Yamaha and cat or Ex Mark and cat the list goes on
poo is making way more on bikes than sleds. if HD wanted to sell a SXS they could very EZ contract it out with cat or poo or BRP or kymco and slap some underpowered loud v twin in it for way way way less money and risk than buying the company . kind of like Yamaha and cat or Ex Mark and cat the list goes on
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Cirrus_Driver
Guest
Once again, I agree with Ez....Harley has a niche market in motorcycles that is in my view, totally independant of all the other "crotch rocket" sellers. It's a totally different consumer that won't consider the other, and visa/versa. HD used to sell their own sleds, and they've been existing for 41 years without snowmobiles, since discontinuing their line in 1975. It wouldn't make logical marketing sense for that to change now.
HOGs don't fight dealer for every penny but snowmobilers do. HD dealer would not know how to sell to sledheads or work on tight product margins. If you talk to dealers about taking on Yamaha they choke on the floor plan to represent. HD dealers would experience a lot of pain taking on AC productline just not the same customer that buys bikes. Very true AC would bring a new customer base to HD dealers with a different productline than just bikes but if you don't know how to to sell to the ATV and Sled community there would be a lot of infrastructure fustration lost revenue and many holdover non currents. Really not a good match for HD dealers.
I believe this could happen. The buying of a company that has established clients and room to grow is appealing to any big company that has money to spend. Cat is vulnerable right now and they are on the market. They have more than one company interested and it's only a matter of time. I've talked to a couple of my friends who are Harley Dealers and even Harley is struggling to sell new product. Used bikes are hot but new are not and they haven't been for some time now. I'm not saying this will happen with HD but I would not be one bit surprised if it does happen. Even though sleds are a tough racket, sledders are passionate just like a Harley buyer and I think it's a good fit. The big 4 sell sleds to dealers in big bunches and they are typically presold unlike other products the big four offer. The dealers usually have it much tougher than the big 4 when it comes to sleds. We're sitting on the stuff unpaid, they usually are not!!!!
I believe this could happen. The buying of a company that has established clients and room to grow is appealing to any big company that has money to spend. Cat is vulnerable right now and they are on the market. They have more than one company interested and it's only a matter of time. I've talked to a couple of my friends who are Harley Dealers and even Harley is struggling to sell new product. Used bikes are hot but new are not and they haven't been for some time now. I'm not saying this will happen with HD but I would not be one bit surprised if it does happen. Even though sleds are a tough racket, sledders are passionate just like a Harley buyer and I think it's a good fit. The big 4 sell sleds to dealers in big bunches and they are typically presold unlike other products the big four offer. The dealers usually have it much tougher than the big 4 when it comes to sleds. We're sitting on the stuff unpaid, they usually are not!!!!
Hey Kip can you say why you think AC is vulnerable to be bought? Lots of rumors that this and that larger company is interested in buying AC then nothing happens. I can't see Yamaha signing another sled building agreement if AC is owned by another company.... Engines yes but not building Yamaha sleds. Can you shed light on this?
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Guest
ACAT stock today $17.68. A year ago it was just about $36.00. Ripe to get bought out or ripe to go to 0? They forced out a whole bunch of smaller dealers last year. One thing that gets talked about a lot on this site is the value of a good dealer and how far a person has to drive for service. Less dealers especially in snow belt areas is a bad thing. For example in NW Wisc there are darn few AC dealers. Even Where I live I have to rive 70 miles to a dealer. This is just stupid. They have a revolving door for CEO's. They surely appear to be in some dire straits. The new T-CAT / Sidewinder has a very tight niche market. The decision to put valuable development dollars into such a small market is stupid. Especially when you are sucking air as bad as they are. They are screwed from top to bottom.
I honestly can't shed much light, and no I don't see Yamaha as a player, but I personally know of two players for sure and yes it's for sale. I guess time will tell if a deal is struck or not. I think it would be great for Cat customers if they were bought out. Sometimes a company gets stuck in a rut and need change and fresh thinking. We all know Yamaha has been there and in a lot of minds they still are. Cat is there now and has been. They have not had healthy dealers in a long time and they cater to many dealers who sell but not the good ones who care more about service and the customer.
I honestly can't shed much light, and no I don't see Yamaha as a player, but I personally know of two players for sure and yes it's for sale. I guess time will tell if a deal is struck or not. I think it would be great for Cat customers if they were bought out. Sometimes a company gets stuck in a rut and need change and fresh thinking. We all know Yamaha has been there and in a lot of minds they still are. Cat is there now and has been. They have not had healthy dealers in a long time and they cater to many dealers who sell but not the good ones who care more about service and the customer.
Yeah I don't see anything worth purchasing for Yamaha either. True lots of product for HD they don't have but how bad does HD want to play in the ATV and Snomo markets? An AC sale is sure to change the OEM relationship with Yamaha but that is how these things go with change of ownership. Yamaha always said 5 years & done with AC but no one belived it.
snobuilder
Well-known member
This pool of expendable income that goes to purchase rec vehicles will continue to shrink into the future. The baby boomers is the last gen with SS and pensions. Union jobs that provided a decent pay package/pensions are turned into a hated group and losing ground.... only thing that will fix this is a return to decent wages as compared to the top tier corp execs. Corps are effing themselves thru blind greed at the top.
The new pass time in general for the millennials and beyond is TV, drink, drugs and soc. media. Like many have said on here this sport of snowmobiling as well as most other rec vehicles isn't for the poor and struggling.
The new pass time in general for the millennials and beyond is TV, drink, drugs and soc. media. Like many have said on here this sport of snowmobiling as well as most other rec vehicles isn't for the poor and struggling.
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Guest
This pool of expendable income that goes to purchase rec vehicles will continue to shrink into the future. The baby boomers is the last gen with SS and pensions. Union jobs that provided a decent pay package/pensions are turned into a hated group and losing ground.... only thing that will fix this is a return to decent wages as compared to the top tier corp execs. Corps are effing themselves thru blind greed at the top.
The new pass time in general for the millennials and beyond is TV, drink, drugs and soc. media. Like many have said on here this sport of snowmobiling as well as most other rec vehicles isn't for the poor and struggling.
You have the order wrong. First is social media. Second is an alternate form of social media. Third is drugs. Then TV. Then some more social media. Alcohol for a little change but there are too many new drugs to explore. A lot of millennials don't even have cars let alone mechanical toys. Things have changed. When I was in my 20's I had a car and a pickup and a couple of snowmobiles and a dirt bike and a jet boat. Most of it was even paid for. Usually at least half of my stuff was broken so I learned all kinds of talents fixing things. It is not like that anymore.
How come the OME's cant just stick a carb motor in a simple chassis without all the fluff and puff and have a price point for a reliable fun affordable sled??
Not sure any OEM will stay positive if sleds keep pushing past $10K, $15K and up...... for 90days of fun..... My kids have all sledded from 2 yrs old and up...now college educated with good jobs, sleds are low on the priority list because so expensive......beware all 4.......
Not sure any OEM will stay positive if sleds keep pushing past $10K, $15K and up...... for 90days of fun..... My kids have all sledded from 2 yrs old and up...now college educated with good jobs, sleds are low on the priority list because so expensive......beware all 4.......
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Cirrus_Driver
Guest
I find this thread interesting...as for millenials, I have a 19 yo that's in the process of F'ing up a pd for college education and only cares about his Acura RSX - lowered, gold/chrome rims, endless mods, and social media..don't give 2 sheets about TV, unless it's the Packers. Likes snowmobiling, but of course I have to pay for it. No concept of "trying hard" at anything, or really hard work. Super weird generation, with limited ability to pay for these toys. Times R changing. Banks...please sell me that ACE900/w Cudney. LOL
You have the order wrong. First is social media. Second is an alternate form of social media. Third is drugs. Then TV. Then some more social media. Alcohol for a little change but there are too many new drugs to explore. A lot of millennials don't even have cars let alone mechanical toys. Things have changed. When I was in my 20's I had a car and a pickup and a couple of snowmobiles and a dirt bike and a jet boat. Most of it was even paid for. Usually at least half of my stuff was broken so I learned all kinds of talents fixing things. It is not like that anymore.
Can't do much with injected 4s & 2s same with cars. Indy does what he can seems pretty good with a wrench been into sleddin since he was a youngster. I'm not sure there are many millennials that want to own sleds I know my kids are not considering anything but boats & batting 500 for boats so far. Idk for sure for everyone but my kids head south in winter sleds not in budget consideration neither are ATVs. Boomers were into all powersports & drew their buddies in...still do....I'm not sure what changed?
How come the OME's cant just stick a carb motor in a simple chassis without all the fluff and puff and have a price point for a reliable fun affordable sled??
Not sure any OEM will stay positive if sleds keep pushing past $10K, $15K and up...... for 90days of fun..... My kids have all sledded from 2 yrs old and up...now college educated with good jobs, sleds are low on the priority list because so expensive......beware all 4.......
Doo has one. The Polaris Indy 600 isn't carbed but not a bad price point either.
Back to the Cat discussion - it seems they have solid 600's and 800's and good 4 strokes also. I'd like to see them or Yamaha put out something to compete with Doo's 900.
How come the OME's cant just stick a carb motor in a simple chassis without all the fluff and puff and have a price point for a reliable fun affordable sled??
Not sure any OEM will stay positive if sleds keep pushing past $10K, $15K and up...... for 90days of fun..... My kids have all sledded from 2 yrs old and up...now college educated with good jobs, sleds are low on the priority list because so expensive......beware all 4.......
You know why.....can't do many carbs on 2s due to EPA requirements. Carbs on 4s no one wants them Yamaha showed that with Vector always had to be cleaned pita compared to injection.
Doo has one. The Polaris Indy 600 isn't carbed but not a bad price point either.
Back to the Cat discussion - it seems they have solid 600's and 800's and good 4 strokes also. I'd like to see them or Yamaha put out something to compete with Doo's 900.
You do know nothing cheap about doo 900 but offers good gas mpg & low power with drive by wire which Yamaha did with new Vectors too. Low profit for OEMs with no frill sleds. Poo has done the best with that with the cookie cutter Indys. I don't think Yamaha is interested in cheapo sled even Phaser was pricey. More of the same from Yamaha with sidewinder & maybe an update for Vector & Apex that is the core Yamaha user and where the money resides.