Why do we need snowmobile clubs???
- Thread starter MOTOSKI
- Start date
I guess since you are asking this question you have no idea what kind of work goes in to putting in the trails such as signing, brushing, and landowner relations. It's a lot more than just grooming. If that were the case the DNR would have to dish out more cash that would include the manpower and the actual work. Hence that would be more money coming out of the taxpayers pocket. It would be way more than it is already. Volunteers are cheap and dedicated but hard to come by. Join a club and find out what it takes.
Sometimes we all have to ask WHY at least 5xs to get to the answers to our questions.
But it is a good question.
Car tabs and gas tax goes to the building, maintaining of roads and bridges.
So where do the sled tabs actually go to?
Does the DNR just regulate safety and speeds on the trail?
But it is a good question.
Car tabs and gas tax goes to the building, maintaining of roads and bridges.
So where do the sled tabs actually go to?
Does the DNR just regulate safety and speeds on the trail?
I think it is a tougher question to answer than meets the eye.
The state gets registration money, so they know who owns what, in the case of an accident or such.
Part of that money (And I have no idea how much, I'm just assuming here) goes towards the clubs and associations for grooming and signing funds.
I also believe the money that comes from registrations and trail stickers and such are put into a pool, that are used for fund matching. Where does that fund matching come from? The time that the clubs and their volunteers put in to clear the trails, and put up the signs, and the time the drivers of the groomers are actually on the trail.
I know when I worked trails in past years, the "sponsoring" entity, a club, or a bar, would log your time, including all equiment used in this trail maintenance time, to submit to the state. I believe this is used to calculate how much "fund matching" the state kicks back, and helps determine what next years "fund matching" should be.
Now, I'm just guestimating this, based on what I have experience from working with clubs, and bar owners, before the season, during the season, and after the snow season.
I'm sure there is a lot more to it, that complicates it to the point of us questioning this every year.
Someone chime in here that actually sees the money coming and going......
The state gets registration money, so they know who owns what, in the case of an accident or such.
Part of that money (And I have no idea how much, I'm just assuming here) goes towards the clubs and associations for grooming and signing funds.
I also believe the money that comes from registrations and trail stickers and such are put into a pool, that are used for fund matching. Where does that fund matching come from? The time that the clubs and their volunteers put in to clear the trails, and put up the signs, and the time the drivers of the groomers are actually on the trail.
I know when I worked trails in past years, the "sponsoring" entity, a club, or a bar, would log your time, including all equiment used in this trail maintenance time, to submit to the state. I believe this is used to calculate how much "fund matching" the state kicks back, and helps determine what next years "fund matching" should be.
Now, I'm just guestimating this, based on what I have experience from working with clubs, and bar owners, before the season, during the season, and after the snow season.
I'm sure there is a lot more to it, that complicates it to the point of us questioning this every year.
Someone chime in here that actually sees the money coming and going......
xsledder
Active member
As the Secretary for a club, there's more to them than just trails. It is also a social group whereby people who share a love for a sport can interact with each other. They can go on trips as a group and have someone to ride with. They can have gatherings during the off season and talk about old trips or plan new trips. They donate to charitable organizations. They help each other out selling sleds or trailers or buying selds or trailers. They talk to each other about good riding locations and bad riding locations. Those are some reasons for a club. You get the most out of a club by getting involved and not just joining.
luvthetrails
New member
Another question? Isn't Wisconsin grooming funded pretty much by clubs and they are given a certain amount of dollars from the state depending on how many miles they groom? Groomer drivers are all volunteer. And I know if you register your sled in Wis they get more money from that then if you buy a trail sticker.
Now in Michigan. The trails are funded by the state? And groomer drivers are paid. I just dont remember seeing alot of signs that these trails are maintained by a certain club like you do in Wisconsin.
Am I on the right track? How does MI work?
Now in Michigan. The trails are funded by the state? And groomer drivers are paid. I just dont remember seeing alot of signs that these trails are maintained by a certain club like you do in Wisconsin.
Am I on the right track? How does MI work?
Snowmobile clubs
good questions-good answers. It can be pretty complex. The trail system is developed and maintained through the efforts of the snowmobile clubs. I also ride an ATV and much of my summer riding is done on trail systems developed by the snowmobile clubs. The bottom line is that without the snowmobile clubs these trails used by so many people would likely not exist in the first place. Without the continuous maintanence that club members provide, the trails would in many areas become overgrown and impassible within several years. Join a club- the work is fun.
Ted
good questions-good answers. It can be pretty complex. The trail system is developed and maintained through the efforts of the snowmobile clubs. I also ride an ATV and much of my summer riding is done on trail systems developed by the snowmobile clubs. The bottom line is that without the snowmobile clubs these trails used by so many people would likely not exist in the first place. Without the continuous maintanence that club members provide, the trails would in many areas become overgrown and impassible within several years. Join a club- the work is fun.
Ted
In MN the DNR only grooms about 5% of all the trails in the entire state. The rest is done by snowmobile CLUBS. But the grooming does not start until the CLUBS get permission to cross all the private property. The CLUBS then go in and actually make the trail, remove trees, install culverts, flatten out the land, install bridges. The CLUBS then put signs on the trails and after mother nature does her part the CLUBS can start grooming. But before that they have to purchase a groomer, teach people how to operate the groomer, teach people how to maintain the groomer.
CLUBS teach youth safety classes
CLUBS have fund raisers to purchase groomers, trails signs, fuel (the money from the DNR/state does not cover all the cost).
CLUBS start life long friend ships between members
like others have said stop by your local CLUB for a meeting just to say hi and you will be amazed what is talked about each night.
OK off my soap box.
crispyknite
New member
The 5% are state corridor trails like the taconite and the north shore trail that
the DNR get paid to groom.
the DNR get paid to groom.
Some other reasons for snowmobile clubs
Put on the snowmobile safety classes for the kids. I taught one this year for my club. Had 15 kids ages 12-14 and 3 adults participate. The kids did better on the test than the adults! Go figure.
Clubs also create the awesome maps you buy at gas stations that show you everything you need to know. Have you ever seen the DNR map on the mi.gov site? No detail whatsoever.
We work with landowners often to obtain right of ways for new (and better trails). We also try to address issues when problems arise and work to resolve access issues.
We grapple with the DNR and the state over issues that affect our local area (thank God for MSA here in MI when it comes to dealing with Lansing).
Snowmobiling would not be the sport it is without clubs......
Put on the snowmobile safety classes for the kids. I taught one this year for my club. Had 15 kids ages 12-14 and 3 adults participate. The kids did better on the test than the adults! Go figure.
Clubs also create the awesome maps you buy at gas stations that show you everything you need to know. Have you ever seen the DNR map on the mi.gov site? No detail whatsoever.
We work with landowners often to obtain right of ways for new (and better trails). We also try to address issues when problems arise and work to resolve access issues.
We grapple with the DNR and the state over issues that affect our local area (thank God for MSA here in MI when it comes to dealing with Lansing).
Snowmobiling would not be the sport it is without clubs......
I can't speak for other states, but here is how it works in MI.
The DNR works with what is called Grant Sponsors to handle the grooming, signing, brushing, establishing easments, getting landowners permission, insurance for land use, insurance for grooming equipment and insurance for any "employees" (persons operating the equipment. There are a multitude of other things to give you the trails you ride on, but that should give you an idea of some of the crucial things a grant sponsor (club) does.
The DNR pays for all the Grooming Equipment. This is something new, they used to pay for a percentage and the grant sponsor was responsible for the rest.
Grant sponsors are also reimbursed by the DNR for miles of trail groomed. That pretty much covers the cost of fuel and some minor repairs. Major repairs are picked up the grant sponsor and/or the DNR depending on some conditions.
Groomer drivers in MI are not paid, unless paid by the grant sponsor. The DNR does not reimburse for groomer operators.
The bottom line is the DNR controls very little. It is entirely up to the grant sponsor to maintain the trails and even determine where the trails will go. I do not have exact figures, but would estimate that 99% of the persons involved with the grant sponsors are all volunteers. I know a lot of folks appreciate all the hard work these volunteers do, but am just blown away by the amount of people that think the trail systems just magically appear every year and will continue to forever with no work involved at all. It is a TON of work, especially for a place like the Keweenaw that has 250 miles of trail, most of it on private land and sees an incredible amount of traffic, which requires grooming trails 2 and sometimes 3 times in a 24 hour period.
Bottom line is, join a club and you will see what they do and how important they are and will never take an inch of trail for granted again.
-John
The DNR works with what is called Grant Sponsors to handle the grooming, signing, brushing, establishing easments, getting landowners permission, insurance for land use, insurance for grooming equipment and insurance for any "employees" (persons operating the equipment. There are a multitude of other things to give you the trails you ride on, but that should give you an idea of some of the crucial things a grant sponsor (club) does.
The DNR pays for all the Grooming Equipment. This is something new, they used to pay for a percentage and the grant sponsor was responsible for the rest.
Grant sponsors are also reimbursed by the DNR for miles of trail groomed. That pretty much covers the cost of fuel and some minor repairs. Major repairs are picked up the grant sponsor and/or the DNR depending on some conditions.
Groomer drivers in MI are not paid, unless paid by the grant sponsor. The DNR does not reimburse for groomer operators.
The bottom line is the DNR controls very little. It is entirely up to the grant sponsor to maintain the trails and even determine where the trails will go. I do not have exact figures, but would estimate that 99% of the persons involved with the grant sponsors are all volunteers. I know a lot of folks appreciate all the hard work these volunteers do, but am just blown away by the amount of people that think the trail systems just magically appear every year and will continue to forever with no work involved at all. It is a TON of work, especially for a place like the Keweenaw that has 250 miles of trail, most of it on private land and sees an incredible amount of traffic, which requires grooming trails 2 and sometimes 3 times in a 24 hour period.
Bottom line is, join a club and you will see what they do and how important they are and will never take an inch of trail for granted again.
-John
polarisrider1
New member
Lansing only understands numbers. Numbers mean votes. The question just blows me away. I can only assume you are new to this whole thing. Join the MSA at least. Those trails did not just show up one day. Heck, send the Michigan Snowmobile Association 1 check and be a Life member Like all 42 members of my family have done.
To see how the funds are generated and distributed, see MSA's website at
http://www.msasnow.org/Distribution of Funds.htm Very enlightening diagram.
http://www.msasnow.org/Distribution of Funds.htm Very enlightening diagram.
Motoski, good post, people need to understand and learn how things work. Good for you for having the balls to write this post. I'm pretty new and can find out more facts in the days to come, but what I know now about Wi. is------The state pays the clubs for the trails that they have (FUNDED) that's right funded. They pay them $250.00 a mile-a year. That is for going and asking the landowner every year for permission, giving the landowner a gift for crossing his land, (a gift around $20. to $30. a year). Marking the trails, brushing the trails, maintaing the trails--(grooming too), taking signs down at the end of the season in the mud, cleaning up the trails, and then starting all over 4 months later. If everyone knew how much work is involved , and how much time is donated, I would have to believe we would have a better trail system. Thank you MOTOSKI!
oldguy
Member
Why doesn't the DNR do it
Part of Motoskis question was why doesn’t the DNR do all of the work. It is a wonderful question. I volunteer well over 100 hours per year working on our trail system and I also wonder the same thing.
I would guess it is pure economics. Why hire people to do it, when you can utilize free help. I would imagine there would be significantly less trails if the DNR took them over. It probably would be more regulated, things like no big lug tracks to spin snow off the trails. Speed limit signs posted everywhere. Stop signs where they are not needed. There would probably be a grooming schedule based on times and not if the trail needed it. Trail destinations the DNR would deem important and not the local communities. Most likely our license fees would be increased dramatically to cover all of the administration it would take to do what we do for free.
The current system has it flaws, getting volunteers, consistent trail quality, poor trail marking, but every state that has a system like MI, WI or MN gets the most bang for the buck doing it the way it’s done.
Part of Motoskis question was why doesn’t the DNR do all of the work. It is a wonderful question. I volunteer well over 100 hours per year working on our trail system and I also wonder the same thing.
I would guess it is pure economics. Why hire people to do it, when you can utilize free help. I would imagine there would be significantly less trails if the DNR took them over. It probably would be more regulated, things like no big lug tracks to spin snow off the trails. Speed limit signs posted everywhere. Stop signs where they are not needed. There would probably be a grooming schedule based on times and not if the trail needed it. Trail destinations the DNR would deem important and not the local communities. Most likely our license fees would be increased dramatically to cover all of the administration it would take to do what we do for free.
The current system has it flaws, getting volunteers, consistent trail quality, poor trail marking, but every state that has a system like MI, WI or MN gets the most bang for the buck doing it the way it’s done.