Open Up Oil Reserves!

indy_500

indy_500

Well-known member
polarisrider1 said:
That is like stating the cost of diapers is a tax on a couple with young children. You have options with gas. Take the bus, move close to work and walk, ride a bike. That is what they do in Europe.
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Not really

My parents workplaces are 2 different directions and each are 15 miles away from home

If gas becomes a burden on you, you just find other things to cut back on. Not everybody can afford a brand new car that gets 30+ mpg. Gas is a necessity, and its hurting the whole country imho.
 
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xcr440

Well-known member
indy_500 said:
Not everybody can afford a brand new car that gets 30+ mpg. Gas is a necessity, and its hurting the whole country imho.
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There are a lot of used cars that get 30+ mpg's, you just have to search them out. They are out there, and Indy, they are NOT very difficult to work on!
 
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frnash

Active member
A consumption tax?

samc said:
2 words - Flat Tax. Tax'd on what you use. Diapers, sled parts, gas, computer, etc.....
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That sounds like you're advocating a consumption tax. Not a tax on your income, but on what you spend. Correct?

Wouldn't that constitute a major disincentive for consumer spending, and thus on the "consumer driven" (i.e. the largest) sector of the economy?
 
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Skylar

Super Moderator
Staff member
indy_500 said:
Not really

My parents workplaces are 2 different directions and each are 15 miles away from home

If gas becomes a burden on you, you just find other things to cut back on. Not everybody can afford a brand new car that gets 30+ mpg. Gas is a necessity, and its hurting the whole country imho.
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Bingo, well said young man.
 
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Skylar

Super Moderator
Staff member
LOL.

Oil rose in New York, extending the biggest gain in six weeks, amid concern OPEC may reduce output in response to the International Energy Agency’s move to release oil stockpiles.

Futures advanced as much as 1.5 percent after rallying 2.5 percent yesterday. The IEA’s plan to release strategic reserves sparked speculation that the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries may limit output. A U.S. report today may show crude stockpiles fell more than forecast last week, and Greece’s parliament will vote on a plan to cut spending and sell assets.

“If IEA countries are releasing stockpiles Saudi Arabia won’t increase production as much as expected,” said Hannes Loacker, an analyst at Raiffeisen Zentralbank Oesterreich in Vienna. “Markets are looking at a positive outcome in Greece.”

Crude for August delivery rose as much as $1.41 to $94.30 a barrel in electronic trading on the New York Mercantile Exchange and was at $93.82 at 12:58 p.m. London time. Yesterday, the contract climbed 2.5 percent to $92.89, the biggest one-day gain since May 18. Prices are up 2.7 percent so far this year.

Brent oil for August settlement on the London-based ICE Futures Europe exchange was at $109.88 a barrel, up 1.1 percent. The European benchmark contract was at a premium of $16.06 to U.S. futures.

Quarterly Decline
Oil is headed for the first quarterly decline in a year after Europe’s debt crisis bolstered speculation fuel demand will be reduced. New York futures are down 12 percent from the end of March, the worst second quarter since 1990. Brent has lost 6.3 percent.

U.S. crude inventories were forecast to have dropped 1.5 million barrels in the week ended June 24 from 363.8 million, according to the median estimate of 12 analysts surveyed by Bloomberg News. Refiners probably maintained operating rates at a 10-month high of 89.2 percent of capacity as they boosted gasoline production before the Fourth of July holiday.

The Energy Department will release its Weekly Petroleum Status Report at 10:30 a.m. in Washington. Yesterday, the industry-funded American Petroleum Institute said in a separate report that crude stockpiles slipped 2.7 million barrels to 360.3 million, the lowest in 10 weeks.

“There are concerns Saudi Arabia will cut production” in response to the IEA move, said Roland Stenzel, an oil trader at E&T Energie Handelsgesellschaft mbH, said from Vienna.

The London-based al-Hayat newspaper reported on June 10, two days after OPEC’s last meeting, that Saudi Arabia would increase output to 10 million barrels a day. It produced 8.9 million barrels in May, according to Bloomberg estimates
 
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Hoosier

Well-known member
frnash said:
That sounds like you're advocating a consumption tax. Not a tax on your income, but on what you spend. Correct?

Wouldn't that constitute a major disincentive for consumer spending, and thus on the "consumer driven" (i.e. the largest) sector of the economy?
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YES! Increasing the savings rate would be a GOOD thing. People would have more reserves for hard times, and, more importantly, more capital would be available for investment, which results in innovation and productivity gains, which is how wealth is created.

Wealth isn't created by incentivizing people to spend every last penny they can beg, borrow or steal.
 
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Hoosier

Well-known member
dcsnomo said:
We have been practicing supply side economics for 30 years.

WHERE ARE THE JOBS?

What is forgotten is that the economic situation in 2011 is vastly different from the Reagan years. Reagan inherited a stagnant economy with high inflation, record high interest rates, consumer spending accounted for 62% of the economy. Baby boomers, the largest segment of consumers, were in their early 30's, about to embark on the largest spending spree known to civilization. Credit cards were not maxed out, and we cared more about our new BMW than our retirement. He gave us tax cuts, and man, we spent it!

Things are different now. Economy is stagnant, little, if any core inflation. Interest rates are so low the Fed gives money away. Consumer spending now drives 70% of the economy, and boomers, still the largest segment of the economy, have had their home values wiped out, their 401ks decimated, and are facing the prospect of eating cat food at retirement. Their credit cards are maxed out, and in 6 years they will quit working.

The economic theories of the 80's do not apply to 2011. Cutting taxes is NOT driving economic growth, look it up. The tax cuts are driving an increased saving rate (from 2% to 5-6%), reduced credit card debt, and massive borrowing by the government.

Why? Because baby boomers (me) have shut their wallets, and they will stay closed. And the generations behind me are massively underemployed and their wallets are also closed. This consumer driven economy has come to the end of the track, because the vast numbers of consumers that drive it don't have the money.

If tax cuts drive jobs, WHERE ARE THE JOBS? Is it possible, just maybe, that in this economic scenario of 2011 that tax cuts drive debt?
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There were jobs until around 4 years ago. The 30 years prior to that, all in all, were very good for growth and for jobs.
 
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Hoosier

Well-known member
xcr440 said:
X2 - They control us like puppets. Reducing reserves will only increase our dependency on them.
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Until we start aggressively drilling for our own, oil and natural gas. Yes, it will still be a global market, but we will then have much more of an impact on it.

The other thing we need to do is begin to ensure that the markets we do business with are actually true free markets. There was an article in the WSJ earlier this week discussing how many markets are thought of as free markets, in that there is supposed to be free trade both ways, but in fact the other side imposes tariffs on incoming goods. I don't know why neither party seems to care at all about this issue...
 
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anonomoose

New member
indy_500 said:
Not really

My parents workplaces are 2 different directions and each are 15 miles away from home

If gas becomes a burden on you, you just find other things to cut back on. Not everybody can afford a brand new car that gets 30+ mpg. Gas is a necessity, and its hurting the whole country imho.
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While of course you are partly right, this cut back on other stuff is a short term measure to a longer term problem.

Eventually your mom and dad WILL stop driving gas guzzler equipment and purchase more efficient transportation.

In Europe, where there are no refineries and no sources of crude, and the price of fuels have been very high for very long periods, those people have already made the necessary adjustments.

They live closer to work, drive very fuel efficient transportation, and they don't venture very far except once in awhile. They use motorcycles and bicycles, and walk a bunch.

Your parents are used to cheap fuel....but eventually they will have to adjust just like in Europe. Just a matter of time.

Only a few years ago, I would head opposite the commuting traffic which was headed into the city while I headed out of it to go snowmobiling. The number of trucks and SUV's were way past 75%....now, you take the same route out of town at rush and it has quickly changed to small cars and a surprising number of motorcycles in that big long caravan to work. Very few trucks...probably less than 30%.....these are the folks doing that long commute of 50 miles one way each day.

Necessity forces change.

What rarely gets talked about are the very good paying jobs that have vanished over the last decade, and accelerating over the last 5 years.

Those small shop job workers aren't there....and those folks have to move over into jobs that don't pay half of what they were used to making. When that happens, gas prices do affect things, but even if the price of gas dropped to a dollar a gallon, it isn't going to put real money back in the pockets of those who were making really good money 7 years ago.

Dealing with THAT reality is at least part of the problems we are facing trying to get the "old economy" rolling again. I am not sure if it can ever be changed or get back to where it was. And that is a very sad admission. Couple that with the fact that our government is spending like a drunken sailor, and a work force that continues to shrink, and you have a recipe for some not so happy times. Struggling with this adjustment will be long and very hard for most people, but unfortunately not all.
 
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sixball

New member
I am not going to say much other then you just can not keep printing money and spending money you don't have.
If this does not change we will all pay and pay dearly.
 
indy_500

indy_500

Well-known member
anonomoose said:
but even if the price of gas dropped to a dollar a gallon, it isn't going to put real money back in the pockets of those who were making really good money 7 years ago
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That's over 5k in savings. I don't know about you, but 5k is a good chunk of change. Some may disagree, but I really don't think people are making a heck of a lot less than they did 7 years ago.

I still see the price of gas, and the prices of EVERYTHING being the root problem. A good baseball bat costs $400, a good pair of shoes cost $100, a new snowmobile cost $12,000, a brand new truck cost $50,000. The only reason the unemployment rate is so high, is because of the high cost of living. People know they need a good paying job in this economy, and it's not there. There's plenty of jobs out there where you can go make under $15 an hour, but $15 an hour isn't what it used to be.

Again, this is all coming from a 16 year old, but I don't think people making less per hour is the problem.
 
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