Concrete questions for the expertz

hotwire

Member
I'm getting ready to pour a slab of concrete for a addition on my shop. I asked a friend about putting plastic down before the pour and he said don't need it. If I recall I think I have heard the plastic helps keep the moisture from comimng thru the concrete after it is cured. Also heard it helps with prevent condensation accumulating on the surface in the spring.
Any advice would be helpful.

Thanks Hotwire
 

booondocker

New member
Right you are! Vapor barrier once completed, but more importantly it prevents the moisture drawing out of the fresh concrete and you will get a stronger material if that matters. If the shop is where it can absorb the cold then EZ's idea is a good one too...to prevent cold from transferring from the ground up.
 

eao

Active member
Concrete guys don't like to use plastic. It makes their work harder as it takes longer for the concrete to set up before they can finish it, so I was told. Probably charge more labor if you want it.
 
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polarisrider1

New member
Put the plastic down. You asked and you received. Ezra has good info in this dept. A vapor barrier is critical for storage. Moisture is not good for stored stuff. Don't go cheap, bring in plenty of sand and compact it before plastic and concrete.
 

hotwire

Member
I have 24 inches of sand which has been in place for 1 year now. Just getting it at grade level and putting in my conduits for my automatic genset which will be next to the addittion.
My plan is for wire mesh in the entire area, with rebar on the outer edges and where the overhead door will go.
I hope I can pour the slab within the next couple of weeks before it gets tooo cold. Located in southwest Michigan. I've had to much work and can't find the time to finish the prep work for the pour.
 

xxxfire6

New member
What the concrete company needs to do is add DELVO to your concrete load which is a water reducer so you can pour on plastic and not have the water bleed from your concrete thus finishing will be the same as pouring on plain sand. Anymore questions just ask!
 

doospunk

Active member
Is this a common (or standard) thing to consider for any concrete slab in the upper midwest? Would the same hold true for an exposed patio slab? Just curious.
 

scott_b

Member
Doo
I think the vapor barrier is really only for slabs that are enclosed. Concrete breathes fairly easily and if you don't have a barrier you may have a very damp space. Outdoors you don't have the same concerns.
 

asmski

New member
Longer it takes for concrete to cure, the stronger it is. Stongest concrete is found in dams, takes years for it to cure. I spec plastic or insulation on everything we build (heated or not). Plastic is cheaper, insulation is more effective.
 

jerkbait_1075

New member
All modern day ready mix concrete companies, at least any that a reputable all use various water reducing admixs in their mix designs. This is the only way to maintain a proper Cement to water rate ratios. You must understand that to properly maintain these ratio's to get the proper yield on PSI at 7, 14, and 28 days a variety of factors come into play. Moisture contents of the aggregates are a highly variable factor from day to day and can have major impacts on the cement to water ratio which will greatly affect the ultimate achieved PSI.. We run moisture test daily in our labs. If it is going to be COLD storage you must also ensure the proper air entrainment in the mix. Air entraining agents should be added to any outside mix design. Make sure you are ordering a 3500 mininum to 4000 pound mix with full air. Ask that they run a Air test on your load and produce those results to you. Your desired air content should be around 5-7%. Air entrainment too is a variable that will change daily with things like moisture contents, Cementatious materials, Fly ash or Slag being part of the mix, ect. We run air test daily on all different mixes thru out the day. If you are truly wanting to get the most from the ready mix product (not cement, cement is a component of ready mix) aske for a 4000 lb mix, with full air. It is ok to use a mix with ash or slag but if the ready mix company does ask for a copy of the batch weights so you have them should you have isssues latter you could have an engineer inspect the mix design. As far as water use a good water reducer at the time of the batch. Try to keep your Slup, (wetness of the load) around a 3 to 4 inch slump. If your contractor doesnt want to do it right and wants to work with a "looser" product you can spend the extra money and ask that they use a Super Plastizer material in place of water. Super works by being added at the sight and will give you a big increase in your slump for a short period of time without throwing of the water ratio.

As far a plastic. It wil only work as long as it remains totaly in tack. To many times contractor put plastic down and it gets punctured, tore, ect. Once there is a break in the membrane the slap will eventually wick moisture back to a normal moisture content
 

polarisrider1

New member
All modern day ready mix concrete companies, at least any that a reputable all use various water reducing admixs in their mix designs. This is the only way to maintain a proper Cement to water rate ratios. You must understand that to properly maintain these ratio's to get the proper yield on PSI at 7, 14, and 28 days a variety of factors come into play. Moisture contents of the aggregates are a highly variable factor from day to day and can have major impacts on the cement to water ratio which will greatly affect the ultimate achieved PSI.. We run moisture test daily in our labs. If it is going to be COLD storage you must also ensure the proper air entrainment in the mix. Air entraining agents should be added to any outside mix design. Make sure you are ordering a 3500 mininum to 4000 pound mix with full air. Ask that they run a Air test on your load and produce those results to you. Your desired air content should be around 5-7%. Air entrainment too is a variable that will change daily with things like moisture contents, Cementatious materials, Fly ash or Slag being part of the mix, ect. We run air test daily on all different mixes thru out the day. If you are truly wanting to get the most from the ready mix product (not cement, cement is a component of ready mix) aske for a 4000 lb mix, with full air. It is ok to use a mix with ash or slag but if the ready mix company does ask for a copy of the batch weights so you have them should you have isssues latter you could have an engineer inspect the mix design. As far as water use a good water reducer at the time of the batch. Try to keep your Slup, (wetness of the load) around a 3 to 4 inch slump. If your contractor doesnt want to do it right and wants to work with a "looser" product you can spend the extra money and ask that they use a Super Plastizer material in place of water. Super works by being added at the sight and will give you a big increase in your slump for a short period of time without throwing of the water ratio.

As far a plastic. It wil only work as long as it remains totaly in tack. To many times contractor put plastic down and it gets punctured, tore, ect. Once there is a break in the membrane the slap will eventually wick moisture back to a normal moisture content
Yup! I always install a vapor barrier over concrete, either with a roll on membrane or with an anti coupling system such as Ditra Schluter. Hydrostatic pressure will blow Porcelain tiles (are vitreous) off the floor. To test if a slab has a vapor barrier you simply put a rubber floor mat on the floor and check under it in a day or so to see if it is wet under the mat. if so, you have no vapor barrier. If you store cardboard boxes, etc. directly on this you will get molding in the box.
 
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booondocker

New member
All modern day ready mix concrete companies, at least any that a reputable all use various water reducing admixs in their mix designs. This is the only way to maintain a proper Cement to water rate ratios. You must understand that to properly maintain these ratio's to get the proper yield on PSI at 7, 14, and 28 days a variety of factors come into play. Moisture contents of the aggregates are a highly variable factor from day to day and can have major impacts on the cement to water ratio which will greatly affect the ultimate achieved PSI.. We run moisture test daily in our labs. If it is going to be COLD storage you must also ensure the proper air entrainment in the mix. Air entraining agents should be added to any outside mix design. Make sure you are ordering a 3500 mininum to 4000 pound mix with full air. Ask that they run a Air test on your load and produce those results to you. Your desired air content should be around 5-7%. Air entrainment too is a variable that will change daily with things like moisture contents, Cementatious materials, Fly ash or Slag being part of the mix, ect. We run air test daily on all different mixes thru out the day. If you are truly wanting to get the most from the ready mix product (not cement, cement is a component of ready mix) aske for a 4000 lb mix, with full air. It is ok to use a mix with ash or slag but if the ready mix company does ask for a copy of the batch weights so you have them should you have isssues latter you could have an engineer inspect the mix design. As far as water use a good water reducer at the time of the batch. Try to keep your Slup, (wetness of the load) around a 3 to 4 inch slump. If your contractor doesnt want to do it right and wants to work with a "looser" product you can spend the extra money and ask that they use a Super Plastizer material in place of water. Super works by being added at the sight and will give you a big increase in your slump for a short period of time without throwing of the water ratio.

As far a plastic. It wil only work as long as it remains totaly in tack. To many times contractor put plastic down and it gets punctured, tore, ect. Once there is a break in the membrane the slap will eventually wick moisture back to a normal moisture content

Wow...great explanation jerkbait....bunch of stuff for a novice to learn here...might be worth printing out for anyone about to do some concrete work.
 

jerkbait_1075

New member
part time welder / fabricator for a medium sized ready mix producer and quarries. I guess in my 23 years I have learned a thing or two from the guys i work with. good thing the office help, batchmen, dispatchers, ect like to come out into the shop to each lunch with us.......
 

jomama45

New member
Absolutely place a vapor barrier before your re-inforcement. 6 mil poly is the minimum typically, and cost between $.04-.05 per square foot, cheap insurance against floor sweating in humid weather.

No need for vapor barriers under exterior work (they actually tend to create more frost on the surface).

X2 on making sure you pour a mix with 5-7% air entrainment.
 

hotwire

Member
WOW, alot of info jerkbait, Thanks. For a minute I thought you were a rocket/concrete scientist.
Gee, I better get smart on this. I was just calling the local concrete supplier for pricing and told them how many yards I would need, that guy must have hung up the phone and told his co-workers, "yup another shade tree concrete guy".
Well as it is, I do have a builder/carpenter/buddy who has done a lot of concrete who will be helping, but he says "don't use plastic unless you want to be here all day waiting for it to set up to trowel"
I don't like to cut corners, I like to go above the normal and have a great job done well.
thanks for all the great info everyone.
 

jomama45

New member
You're going to have to put something into the mix for an accelerator anyways at this time of year, and the plastic would have very minimal effect on the amount. I'd use the plastic and pour early enough in the morning so you have plenty of daylight. Waiting on concrete to set always yields a superior finished product as opposed to trying to play "catch-up", especially when you don't do it for a living............
 
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