Reviews of renegade backcountry from the artic north

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Hoosier

Well-known member
momoney2123 said:
To me 2s sleds not in the cards for Yamaha & will address all market segments with 4s just as they have done with the Viper. Who knows what next generation platform will weigh?.... Yamaha has heard the weight issue....LOL.... Could be new engines as well that could weigh less and Yamaha has methods to reduce engine braking. I'm sure they are prepared to offer an exciting new 4s platform to what the market wants...if not why do it?.... they are in biz to succeed & make money.
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There is a lot of weight to be cut on 4 strokes. Carbon fiber..small displacement 4 strokes with turbos. But these things also cost a lot of money. The offtrail market is the fastest growing. Only way in my opinion to be cost competetive is with a 2 stroke. Otherwise they will just be too heavy to truly compete.

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I would also thing Yamaha would update their 4 strokes into being competitive with the ACE models for efficiency. For the people who want good gas mileage, the yamahas just arent as efficient. Those engines are pretty old technology. I would assume something is in the works.[/QUOTE]

Regarding competing with the ACE models - I think everyone agrees the Phazer needs to be updated. They do though cost quite a bit less than the ACE, so they're not really in the same market. I do think Yamaha is missing an opportunity in the ACE-class - 60 or 90 hp, high efficient trail riding.
 
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whitedust

Well-known member
momoney2123 said:
To me 2s sleds not in the cards for Yamaha & will address all market segments with 4s just as they have done with the Viper. Who knows what next generation platform will weigh?.... Yamaha has heard the weight issue....LOL.... Could be new engines as well that could weigh less and Yamaha has methods to reduce engine braking. I'm sure they are prepared to offer an exciting new 4s platform to what the market wants...if not why do it?.... they are in biz to succeed & make money.
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There is a lot of weight to be cut on 4 strokes. Carbon fiber..small displacement 4 strokes with turbos. But these things also cost a lot of money. The offtrail market is the fastest growing. Only way in my opinion to be cost competetive is with a 2 stroke. Otherwise they will just be too heavy to truly compete.

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I would also thing Yamaha would update their 4 strokes into being competitive with the ACE models for efficiency. For the people who want good gas mileage, the yamahas just arent as efficient. Those engines are pretty old technology. I would assume something is in the works.[/QUOTE]

Probably have an Ace market segment sled too makes sense but I would think their money maker would 1st be a new Apex & Vector to meet pent up demand & give the core what they want...easy money & pickings for Yamaha.....low hanging fruit. lol Then replace the Viper & have something like the Ace too.
 
L

lenny

Guest
momoney2123 said:
Seems all the 4 strokes run well and are reliable on boost. There are a ton of 1200 doos out there as well. Stage 1 220hp+ on pump gas. Buddy has a stage 2 he trail rides 350hp



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I hope they do, that makes sense. Now if they came back with a direct injected 2 stroke they would really make some noise.
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Yamaha's are higher compression so cannot handle the same boost as Cat without engine mods. Apex runs stock 40 HP more than AC so right out of the box the Apex has plenty of power. You gotta pay for HP and with Yamaha Ezra is right you do pay more but 210 hp is a lot for the trails. get a turbo stock AC and you get 177 hp which is impressive. I've ridden one and it goes,,,just depends on how much boost you want and most are fine with the AC turbo or the Yammi push turbo.
 
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ezra

Well-known member
lenny said:
bogus! Yamaha Push turbo 210 hp 7 lb on 92 octane, very reliable. AC runs 177 hp,,,,no brainer. Sorta faster than AC is what you meant,,, right?
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300hp with a stage 3 tune and head bolts for under 500 bucks drop the cost of a push kit on the zuk well past 400hp for a day at the track. u get any place close to 250 on that yamaha u will blow the case sooner than latter
.
 
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snobuilder

Well-known member
Polaris must have found a loophole in the EPA mandates...lets all go back to the stoneage of short lived 2 smokers....LOL
 
srt20

srt20

Active member
ezra said:
300hp with a stage 3 tune and head bolts for under 500 bucks drop the cost of a push kit on the zuk well past 400hp for a day at the track. u get any place close to 250 on that yamaha u will blow the case sooner than latter
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I'm not a yamaha guy, but c'mon man. You know that's not true bout the yamaha.

So AC guys making over 400 with the stock turbo? What size turbo is that?? How much boost??
 
L

lenny

Guest
ezra said:
300hp with a stage 3 tune and head bolts for under 500 bucks drop the cost of a push kit on the zuk well past 400hp for a day at the track. u get any place close to 250 on that yamaha u will blow the case sooner than latter
.
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maybe $500 for a DIY and your correct Yamaha doesnt handle high boost well in stock but you do see big numbers from Yamaha motors.

So .05% of people build those sleds in that application. Lets talk stock naturally aspirated 4s, like you said Yam makes good power for the masses. Typical turbo for Cat and Yam, the stuff we see on the trails Yam at 210with push, Cat at 177 with 110 factory turbo.
 
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momoney2123

New member
lenny said:
maybe $500 for a DIY and your correct Yamaha doesnt handle high boost well in stock but you do see big numbers from Yamaha motors.

So .05% of people build those sleds in that application. Lets talk stock naturally aspirated 4s, like you said Yam makes good power for the masses. Typical turbo for Cat and Yam, the stuff we see on the trails Yam at 210with push, Cat at 177 with 110 factory turbo.
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Most guys i know get the cats to 230-240hp with very minimal mods.

But i guess they would void their warranty technically. unless they have a good dealer.

Is the yamaha with a push still warrantied?

If yamaha wants to drop a bombshell on the sledding market, they will have spent the last 10 years of mundaneness perfecting a 2 stroke turbo :cool:. maybe they have a huge trick up their sleeve :confused:
 
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snobuilder

Well-known member
I like the fact that Yamaha has kept things simple. Turbos add a lot of heat under the tight confines of a snowmobile hood which then leads to other problems.
I have seen how everything is crammed under the hood with the oil tank and oil lines mm away from the exhaust with lines getting worn thru and causing fires.

K.I.S.S.
 
M

momoney2123

New member
snobuilder said:
I like the fact that Yamaha has kept things simple. Turbos add a lot of heat under the tight confines of a snowmobile hood which then leads to other problems.
I have seen how everything is crammed under the hood with the oil tank and oil lines mm away from the exhaust with lines getting worn thru and causing fires.

K.I.S.S.
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Werent you the one saying doo is boring, yet you like simple? those 2 go hand in hand, in my opinion.

In The snowmobile world simple doesnt sell. Bold new ideas and concepts Sell. the first turbo 2 stroke would sell, especially if it worked well.
Like it or not the yamaha's are losing market share with their apex and vector line. In my mind it means one of 2 things. They are either getting out, or re-loading and coming with something unique. I think a new yamaha 2 stroke would get peoples attention. if they want the #1 spot, they need a 2s and 4s line. You cant do it with just one or the other.
 
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ezra

Well-known member
srt20 said:
I'm not a yamaha guy, but c'mon man. You know that's not true bout the yamaha.

So AC guys making over 400 with the stock turbo? What size turbo is that?? How much boost??
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I said toss the same money as u put in to a push turbo for a yamaha and u will be well past 400hp . no stock turbo will not get u 400 but a D&D turbo mod with new fuel pump and injectors will get u real close if not to 400 with stock inter cooler and charge tubes . that can be done for well under 2g. u toss a bigger turbo and connecting rods to the mix u can be running with Glenn and Kelly for world records . no lenny 500 for about any guy who can plug in a box and do some clutching can run a ez 220 hp running on questionable fuel with option of 280 or 300 tune when u know u have good gas.
I still dont want or need one have good friends with them so I can get my fix of 1000ft fun over 400hp a few times a yr . all I am saying is the yamah is a fine motor but if u want to make real power the zuk is a better motor all around . in stock non turbo forum yes the yamaha is a better motor. the cat with no mods is 177 hp but who buys a cat turbo to keep it stock? especially with so much cheep reliable HP left on the table. u cant pipe a 2st for 500 bucks then see reliable 50 to 80hp who can leave that on the table
 
D

Deleted member 10829

Guest
I agree on the 2 stroke for Yamaha. Whitedust continually claims how Poo is missing the market by not offering a 4 stroke, and I agree by the way, but Yamaha not offering a 2 stroke is many times worse as the 2 stroke market is so much larger. Not to mention offering a modern chassis of their own.
 
M

momoney2123

New member
I just read an article that tucker Hibbert is racing a 4 stroke for next season!!! Wow. He dominated the whole year. This should atleast give the other guys a chance!
 
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snobuilder

Well-known member
Good to see you were taking notes, MOMO....LOL....My Yamaha Apex is anything but boring. 2 strokes are lighter and my Poo is a different type of "non-boring"...pretty simple really....BTW, what new innovation has Ski-Doo sled division pioneered lately?

Yamahas pioneering the High-Perf. 4 stroke market also was responsible for placement and cc ratings that govern the race classes.
Too bad Cat, Doo and or Poo couldn't come up with a 1050cc nat. asp. catagory 4stroke to compete with the Yamaha hi-perf. engines.
They had plenty of time to catch up. I believe we'd be seeing an exclusive 4 stroke 1050cc race class in place if they didn't chicken out.
 
W

whitedust

Well-known member
mspease said:
I agree on the 2 stroke for Yamaha. Whitedust continually claims how Poo is missing the market by not offering a 4 stroke, and I agree by the way, but Yamaha not offering a 2 stroke is many times worse as the 2 stroke market is so much larger. Not to mention offering a modern chassis of their own.
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I don't think either Poo or Yam are right or wrong with 2s only or 4s only product lines. Yes both are limiting their market share but must have their reasons at the very top of management. I would think it is the cost of engine tooling & I'm not at all sure 4s of any kind would fit in Axys?...Yamaha would need a new platform which is coming but probably no 2s engines as ROI would have to be huge to tool up for new 2s engine tech. The question in my mind is the 4s market expanding to a higher share or stuck at 25 to 30%? Seems to be a lot more interest in 4s from doo Ace to Yamaha Apex with many offerings in between.
 
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