10-13 MI Snowmobile Fatalities report

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jlrotax583

New member
russholio said:
I can't speak for others, but I have stated several times that the doom and gloom I thought would happen did not happen. Or at least, appears not to have happened. Without having more specifics than what the fatality summary gives, I don't think we have any real way of knowing whether a blown turn was because of a lack of signage. It could be...but there are also several other things it could be caused by. The accident investigators may have a better idea, but all of the details are not provided in the summary. I think Ibendwire's assessment is spot-on.

Also....I hear time and again that this change is supposed to make our trails safer, yet all I hear anybody talking about is fatalities. Okay, so maybe fatalities went down, or stayed the same.....that's certainly good.....but what about those incidents I spoke of in my earlier post that result in minor injuries, or no injuries, that go unreported? Do we not include those when we talk about safety? And again, most, if not all of those incidents go unreported so there is NO way to know how many of those happen. Of course, this was true before the signage change, too -- so we don't know if they've gone up, or if they've gone down. The point I'm trying to make is, it will be difficult at best to measure the full effectiveness of this change.
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THIS IS 100% ON POINT. Until you have all the DATA with ALL THE RECORDABLE INJURIES you are just speculating. We don't have enough data PERIOD!
And using only parts of the data (fatalities) can actually be more detrimental to the cause. Until then your pushing a rope.

I have noticed the lack of signage and don't have enough seat time yet to determine if I feel comfortable with the new signage yet.
I do know that it is not good policy to let all the individual clubs arbitrarily determining (based on DNR guidelines) if corners require signage 90deg vs 89deg or a 75deg decreasing radius corner.
I have a hard time believing the DNR checked every mile of trail for compliance but I will admit I don't think the gov's do anything well.
Maybe it will be a long learning curve with no sign required? Hopefully not.

Ride safe.
Jon
 
U

united

Active member
The International Association of Snowmobile Administrators (IASA) is a self-organized, nonprofit organization comprised of snowmobile program administrators representing 27 US states, 10 Canadian Provinces, 3 Canadian Territories, and 1 European Country, Sweden. http://www.snowiasa.org/

Here are their sign guidelines from 2000. Might be nice to have everyone be consistent (one way or the other) in the distant future. http://www.snowiasa.org/guidelines-resources/sign-guidelines.pdf
 
R

russholio

Well-known member
lenny said:
what exactly are you seeing and how many areas are you referring to?
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I'm referring to the 10 or 11 different systems I've ridden this year throughout the Eastern UP and Northern LP. I have still seen chevrons, 90* turn signs, 90* turns that should be marked but aren't (in my opinion; which is part of the subjectivity problem I described earlier), a few that are marked and really don't need to be (again, in my opinion) and a few case of no indication of which way a trail goes at a stop sign (to the left, to the right, across the road to the left or to the right). In some open areas there could be a more liberal use of confidence markers, but I know that wasn't part of the signage change (or at least, wasn't supposed to be -- or maybe my memory is failing me because I could have sworn there were more in previous trips).

I remember in my early days of sledding thinking "wow, this system is signed really well" or "wow, this system's signing leaves something to be desired" but over the years they seemed to come closer together. My experience this year, and opinion, is that they've moved a bit apart again. Not necessarily to the level of the early years, but there's work to be done. And I understand there's a learning curve. As I said, Rome wasn't built in a day so I'm not complaining and I'm willing to be patient while the wrinkles are worked out. I'm just stating my opinion and observations from this year.
 
V

vx700xtc

Member
I rode 3000 miles this winter between Copper, Big Bay, Marquette, Crystal Falls, Saxon Wi, and all in between. The only issue I saw was 3 near 90 degree turns between L'Anse and Yellow Dog Plaines that were not marked at all. The rest was just fine, and I really like the curve signs that show the trail turns but that a road goes straight, those are the corners that sneek up on me.
 
D

Dave_B

Active member
vx700xtc said:
I rode 3000 miles this winter between Copper, Big Bay, Marquette, Crystal Falls, Saxon Wi, and all in between. The only issue I saw was 3 near 90 degree turns between L'Anse and Yellow Dog Plaines that were not marked at all. The rest was just fine, and I really like the curve signs that show the trail turns but that a road goes straight, those are the corners that sneek up on me.
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That was my only issue. 90 degree (or whatever you guys want to call sharp curves that's coming up) really need to be marked. I could care less about the other signs for myself.

My concern is for the inexperienced riders who are riding the trails and, someday, will be taking our place on endless posts like this one.
 
L

lenny

Guest
odds are there will be mistake and the clubs need to know about it,,,call em up and I bet they'd be glad to have some input
 
R

russholio

Well-known member
Dave_B said:
My concern is for the inexperienced riders who are riding the trails and, someday, will be taking our place on endless posts like this one.
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Mine as well.

lenny said:
odds are there will be mistake and the clubs need to know about it,,,call em up and I bet they'd be glad to have some input
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Lenny -- I believe most clubs would be willing to listen if somebody had a complaint about the signage. I have heard you, and others say to contact the local club if you encounter something you believe should be corrected. But I ask you, and I'm not trying to be a smartazz or argumentative, how does one possibly describe a turn they believe should be marked, after they've gotten back from their ride? Or even during the ride, if you're lucky enough to have cell phone service and have the local club's number? It would do no good to call up and say "hey, Club X, you have some turns out there that need to be marked". Specifics are key, but how do you give them?
 
L

lenny

Guest
russholio said:
Mine as well.



Lenny -- I believe most clubs would be willing to listen if somebody had a complaint about the signage. I have heard you, and others say to contact the local club if you encounter something you believe should be corrected. But I ask you, and I'm not trying to be a smartazz or argumentative, how does one possibly describe a turn they believe should be marked, after they've gotten back from their ride? Or even during the ride, if you're lucky enough to have cell phone service and have the local club's number? It would do no good to call up and say "hey, Club X, you have some turns out there that need to be marked". Specifics are key, but how do you give them?
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for sure that would require to know where you were. You'd need to ask a local probably and I am sure the club would listen. It may not be something immediate but if it indeed needed to be marked, bringing it to the attention to the proper people is a start. I probably said it was like a done deal but just saying they need to know is the fisrt step
 
R

russholio

Well-known member
lenny said:
for sure that would require to know where you were. You'd need to ask a local probably and I am sure the club would listen. It may not be something immediate but if it indeed needed to be marked, bringing it to the attention to the proper people is a start. I probably said it was like a done deal but just saying they need to know is the fisrt step
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Ah, that dreaded "c" word my wife always talks about (communication). :) I suppose one could always snap a pic, and email it along with as good a description as they could muster. Chances are you groomer drivers would recognize it.
 
R

russholio

Well-known member
sixball said:
If you or someone had a GPS it could be reported with lat long ### This could be a good starting point.
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True dat.....I didn't think about that, but I could easily mark it with a waypoint. So I guess for me, it would be pretty easy, but a little more involved for somebody without a GPS.
 
L

lenny

Guest
russholio said:
Ah, that dreaded "c" word my wife always talks about (communication). :) I suppose one could always snap a pic, and email it along with as good a description as they could muster. Chances are you groomer drivers would recognize it.
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sixball said:
If you or someone had a GPS it could be reported with lat long ### This could be a good starting point.
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those are really good points, good thinking. When I stuck the groomer and spent a good 8 hrs with our club president and he mentioned that he added a sign where he thought was appropriate He also rides the trails, excellent club president.
 
L

lenny

Guest
this one in Wis where the superior signage takes place. Although not sure if it was on a trail or not
 
W

whitedust

Well-known member
W

whitedust

Well-known member
We know rider hit a tree not the sled not sure if on trail or not but will know soon. Only bars & windshield was damaged on sled from rider ejection it was a rental sled. Will know more soon very unfortunate accident to say the least!
 
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