Airplanes - Twin Engine Cessna - Maintenance / Hanger

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Cirrus_Driver

Guest
I know there are some pilots out here. I need some information about twin props vs. single props; Cessna vs. Piper.
Performance of twin engine vs single, including fuel consumption.
Are single engine planes reliable to the point you don't have to worry about having a twin engine plane just for the "insurance"/ safety factor alone?
What I particularly want to know is, what are typical annual maintenance costs, and hanger storage fees?
I met with my investment banker twice over the last month and bottom line is, snowmobiles won't spend my money fast enough, so I'm thinking of getting a plane.
Details please, including where to start to look for a good deal on a plane.
 

mezz

Well-known member
Hopefully our favorite spell check, thesaurus guru Mr. Nash can chime in on this for you, he has experience in this arena. What say you frnash? I'm sure you can help him out.:encouragement:-Mezz
 
C

Cirrus_Driver

Guest
Thanks for the bump - I started researching over the weekend and I'm totally overwhelmed.
I have no idea about instrumentation features to look for, or even what price to pay, or years to look for or avoid.
 
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G

Guest
Perhaps you could join a club. Typically there would be somebody in such a club that would be certified instructer. After you got your license you would either pay a rental fee or some kind of a monthly payment to use the club's plane(s). That is how it works at our local club. Then you don't have to buy a plane right away and you can split up all the many costs of ownership. If you really do have too much money I could offer you a much better opportunity to invest than a plane. We need some townhouses here. Planes are bottomless pits of expense and never ending maintenence. The best plane of all is somebody else's plane.
 
C

Cirrus_Driver

Guest
Thanks Grub - that's actually a very practical idea.
The wife's first thought was just hire a charter whenever we want to travel, and that in fact might be cheaper if you're only traveling 3-4 times a year.
 

Admin

Administrator
Staff member
Did I happen to mention that I am very well trained and experienced at disposing of any extra money?

But seriously, airplanes are a whole 'nother story when it comes to operation. You are going to spend some money and a lot of time just getting to the point where you can fly your own butt around. Then spend even more time getting licensed to be able to fly others. Then there will be more time spent getting your instrument rating so that you can fly when the weather is not so good. Then another rating if you want to fly a multi-engine aircraft vs. a single prop.

It's been a long time since I was involved with private aircraft (my dad owned a plane and my older brother is a commercial pilot and I took lessons to the point where I could fly by myself), so I have no idea on the prices of owning and storage these days. They do not need to be kept in a hanger, many are kept in spots outdoors at airports.

Maintenance costs are not as bad as one would think until the engine needs a major overhaul. If you are serious about buying, you will need to become well versed in SMOH = Since Major OverHaul. Each aircraft/engine has their own period where they need a complete going over/replacement. The closer you get to the time where a major overhaul is needed, the cheaper the price of the aircraft becomes.

So I would say that unless you are REALLY interested in becoming a pilot yourself, including the hours and hours of instruction needed to get to the point where you can fly others around in weather that is not picture perfect, then I would go with the charter idea. Especially if you only plan to fly 3-4 times a year.

-John
 
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Cirrus_Driver

Guest
Thanks JD - good information. That's what I need, people with actual experience.
I saw plenty of the SMOH designation over the weekend and knew what it meant, just saw no reference to cost.
I didn't know you could do the club thing, like a timeshare with a plane. So far that sounds like the best option for my level of use.
 
G

G

Guest
Your wife is right on this one. 3 or 4 times a year is not enough justify plane ownership. The age old adage that comes to mind here :::: If it Flies, F###s or Floats it is usually cheaper to rent.
 

Admin

Administrator
Staff member
If memory serves me correct, the price of a major overhaul can cost 30-50% of the value of the aircraft. So it is big bucks.
 
C

Cirrus_Driver

Guest
Your wife is right on this one. 3 or 4 times a year is not enough justify plane ownership. The age old adage that comes to mind here :::: If it Flies, F###s or Floats it is usually cheaper to rent.

Well the wild card is...I'd travel more if I did have a plane, not including pleasure cruises. So it wouldn't be just 3-4 times a year usage.
I'm talking 3-4 times a year between Northern WI and FL, AL, TX, SC or points west.
I may settle for a new Corvette or NSX and a Sidewinder and call it a day. (kidding on the Sidewinder, but you get the point)
 

old abe

Well-known member
Grub hit the nail on the head. If you are serious you need to learn as much as you can about flying and plane ownership. A flying club will provide this. It's like a itch that won't go away! I went thru this same thing 40 years prior, and found out how costly owning can be. Maintenance, avionics, engine overhaul is huge, and so on. There is nothing cheap in flying. It is as costs go boating, car collecting, snowmobiling, and camping. However, it is the very high end of the cost scale due to issues such as regulations and safety factors involved. Good luck to you, take your time, and understand your likes of flying. There is a lot to learn.
 
T

Tracker

Guest
I have rented this...renting is cheap..farthest was to key west for 7 days



C-172-N: $115/hr


*Aircraft rental requires valid Pilot’s License, Medical, Renter’s Insurance, and a checkout with a Company Pilot. Usually this will take about an hour.*

https://www.regionflyers.com/aircraft-rental/
 
C

Cirrus_Driver

Guest
Tracker - when you rented by the hour to fly to Key West, do they go by the time on the aircraft (seems obvious), and how long did it take you to fly to KW?
And how many stops along the way, and what types of airports and where did you stop on the way?
What kind of speeds do you fly at in that thing?
 
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goingnorth

New member
This week only - You'll come home with a plane - not to miss if you are interested in aviation

https://www.eaa.org/en/airventure

Some other sites to have have fun with

controller.com

flightaware.com

Flying a Cessna 172 to Key West is like taking a Skidoo elan from Wisconsin to copper harbor - ouch
 

goingnorth

New member
also try this site for charters

chartehub.com

General rule of thumb add 2 to 3 times to the hourly rate (fuel surcharges, plane relocation, extended stays, one way and/or pilot charges for extended stays)
 
G

G

Guest
Years ago a couple of buddies of mine rented a Cessna 150 and flew out to Wisc for a funeral. On the way back they encountered a strong headwind. The cars on the interstate were passing them. They had to land to refuel to make it home.
 

mezz

Well-known member
Perhaps you could own the aircraft & when not in use for yourself, lease it out to a reputable commuter to off set the cost of hanger, maintainence & insurance costs. Yes, that avenue does bring in whole different aspect, but, perhaps a worth while idea to look into for the financial aspect. Just a thought.-Mezz
 

frnash

Active member
What, all of a sudden this moribund forum wakes up, after weeks of inactivity? And with an interesting subject, no less!
I have some suggestions, to offer, but rather than rattle on from memory, I'm going to rummage around to see if I can fine some of my earlier writings on the subject.
Years ago a couple of buddies of mine rented a Cessna 150 and flew out to Wisc for a funeral. …
On a good day a C-150 is a good short-haul two-place aircraft, for two "FAA Standard size (180lb.) folks" and virtually no luggage, that is; otherwise it's "serviceable" for a pilot and his/her "brainbag" in the right seat. A couple buddies of yours in a C-150? Oh I sorry for them -- if they were of any size at all.
On the way back they encountered a strong headwind. The cars on the interstate were passing them. …
Been there, done that, flying in a low-level jet stream, parallel to the western shore of Lake Michigan in an old Taylorcraft.
 

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frnash

Active member
Some quick semi-random thoughts for starts:

  1. Consider entering into a co-ownership with some trusted friends, a total of three or perhaps four folks in all, yourself included. More than four co-owners constitutes a Flying Club, by FAA and/or insurance company definition. You probably want to avoid that. Insurance rates are much higher for "flying clubs" as well.
    X
    (Some "Flying Clubs" are essentially just a collection of frequent renters at your neighborhood FBO, who get a favored rental rate. Typically many folks, few planes, and abundant scheduling headaches.)
    X
    Most of my aircraft-ownership years were as co-owner with one, two and at most three other folks.
    Believe me, that made scheduling far easier than with a "club".
    X
    We just arbitrarily assigned each calendar week to a particular member, rotating down the calendar in turn.
    When I wanted to use the aircraft, it was either "my week", or I only had to coordinate with whoever "owned" that week.
    X
    We assessed each other a fixed per-month fee to cover "fixed" expenses, such as hangar rent, annual inspections, insurance, and an hourly "dry" rate of $18.00/flying hour (engine hours, as measured by the Hobbs meter in the aircraft). Each pilot buys their own gas, topping off the tanks on the completion of each trip.
    X
    [We bought that PA28-180C in 1971(?) for $7,200, and sold it ≈ 20 years later for something well north of $20,000.00. (Try that with an automobile or snowmobile!) Incidentally, that aircraft is still flying today, the last I checked, now based at (click →) Flying Cloud Airport (FCM), Eden Prairie, MN.]
    X
  2. Renting aircraft from your neighborhood FBO usually involves an hourly dry rate as above, but with a mandatory minimum number of hours charged per calendar day, whether flown or not. This can add up for a holiday trip (Fly out, stay several days, fly back.) And of course you'll need to have an initial check ride with one of the FBO's flight instructors before they let you rent (Of course you pay for the aircraft and the flight instructor for that too!)
    X
  3. Check out (click →) Trade-A-Plane.

… Are single engine planes reliable to the point you don't have to worry about having a twin engine plane just for the "insurance"/ safety factor alone? …
It's a well known fact that most twin engine aircraft don't have two engines for redundancy, but because they need both engines! They really don't fly that well at all with one out of service, and of course with one engine out, there's also asymmetric thrust to deal with.

Also, your flight training will include plenty of work on emergency procedures — including how to find a suitable emergency landing field, and use it. Remember, you will have a glide ratio of roughly 12 to 1 or more, so for every mile you are above the ground you will have a safe glide distance of ≈ 12 miles (e.g. at ≈ 10,000 ft. AGL, find a suitable landing spot within a ≈ 24 mile radius).

You want "insurance"? Check out the (click →) Cirrus SR22,
… complete with a whole-aircraft (click →) Cirrus Airframe Parachute System® (CAPS®).
(Said Frank, wiping the drool off his chin. :eagerness: )

… The wife's first thought was just hire a charter whenever we want to travel, and that in fact might be cheaper if you're only traveling 3-4 times a year.
So I would say that unless you are REALLY interested in becoming a pilot yourself, including the hours and hours of instruction needed to get to the point where you can fly others around in weather that is not picture perfect, then I would go with the charter idea. Especially if you only plan to fly 3-4 times a year. …
Not to mention that you'll have to fly much more than that just to satisfy the FAA's Biennial Flight Review and Currency Requirements (for carrying passengers), see FAA's Advisory Circular 61-98C (PDF).

I have so much more I could add, on the cost of getting that private pilot certificate (or whichever newer variant), but enough for now.
 
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