Airplanes - Twin Engine Cessna - Maintenance / Hanger

shelby369

New member
Howdy boys.....

I was invited by 2 commercial pilots to the EAA show yesterday.... I know little about planes/flying, did I get me eyes opened yesterday...WOW, having a plane is flipping expensive. I thought snowmobiling/boating was an exercise in burning cash.... I love sledding, so I blow stupid amounts of cash doing..... you fly guys really have to love flying, your cash burn is way out there.
 

old abe

Well-known member
Yes as I have related to, flying/owning is at the upper end of expensive hobbies. You have to remain active with it so there is no lull on the expenses either.
 
T

Tracker

Guest
Howdy boys.....

I was invited by 2 commercial pilots to the EAA show yesterday.... I know little about planes/flying, did I get me eyes opened yesterday...WOW, having a plane is flipping expensive. I thought snowmobiling/boating was an exercise in burning cash.... I love sledding, so I blow stupid amounts of cash doing..... you fly guys really have to love flying, your cash burn is way out there.

I didn't get to make it as 2 tickets worth 3750.00 each to crosstown classic was offered to me....but they have arrived....I got a video of them landing with sounds and instructions from tower....check this out in meantime...THE LANCER....I did the safety release system for the nukes and payload...check out THE BLANKET at slow speed

 
T

Tracker

Guest
Jet flight is something that will NEVER happen for me. No interest - way too dangerous and expensive. That's the far end of the excitement spectrum.

triple X...no dig...but just from the sounds of this post...flyin aint for you....excitement spectrum? so do you FLOOR your sled on take offs? do you hill climb? do you go off trail? and do you run 100 occasionally on ya sled? all those are more dangerous than flying....so is driving yer car to da store....renting one? as you state....never gonna happen....might I suggest one of these instead...chris Anderson is THE MAN....I getting a VENTANA

 

ezra

Well-known member
Thanks Grub - that's actually a very practical idea.
The wife's first thought was just hire a charter whenever we want to travel, and that in fact might be cheaper if you're only traveling 3-4 times a year.

I have 2 friends with large stacks more than enough to buy new jets and have a full time crew . they own no planes they charter jets for every flight . unless flying is your passion really not even close to worth it.
I have 1 bud who has a large family business and they the business and family own a G2 and always some one using it. when no business trips or family using it is chartered out. I guess that covers crew cost almost
 
C

Cirrus_Driver

Guest
triple X...no dig...but just from the sounds of this post...flyin aint for you....excitement spectrum? so do you FLOOR your sled on take offs? do you hill climb? do you go off trail? and do you run 100 occasionally on ya sled? all those are more dangerous than flying....so is driving yer car to da store....renting one? as you state....never gonna happen....might I suggest one of these instead...chris Anderson is THE MAN....I getting a VENTANA


IMO there's a happy medium between a single engine prop plane and a military jet. It seems strange to me to say because you're intimidated by flying jets, that flying's not for you.
If a jet flames out, it drops like a stone. RV? Not in a million years - the ultimate in boring, pointless and hassle.
 
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Cirrus_Driver

Guest
I have 2 friends with large stacks more than enough to buy new jets and have a full time crew . they own no planes they charter jets for every flight . unless flying is your passion really not even close to worth it.
I have 1 bud who has a large family business and they the business and family own a G2 and always some one using it. when no business trips or family using it is chartered out. I guess that covers crew cost almost

Yeah I know the wife don't want me to buy a plane because she's encouraging me to buy new 'Vette right now, when she inherits a mint, restored Mustang convertible from her dad down the road.
 
T

Tracker

Guest
IMO there's a happy medium between a single engine prop plane and a military jet. It seems strange to me to say because you're intimidated by flying jets, that flying's not for you.
If a jet flames out, it drops like a stone. RV? Not in a million years - the ultimate in boring, pointless and hassle.

not true on the RV...mount comfort RV babay

 

frnash

Active member
Getting the thread back on track.

Well, this thread certainly has wandered off track(-er? :ambivalence:) from the OP's original question (as usual)!

Just in case the OP or anyone else here is still contemplating flight training or buying/leasing/renting general aviation aircraft, I just found this educational item today:
(click →) "Cherokee: The Low Wing Wonder", (YouTube video, 11 min + 59 sec.) It always was, it still is!

This video, with aeronautical engineering facts, quite precisely verifies my own personal sentiment and experiences with Cessna vs. Piper aircraft, summarized here (proving that it wasn't just my imagination!):
  1. Flying Cessnas (C-172/C-182), with their high wing, always felt to me like I was dangling beneath a box kite, which sometimes even induced a slight twinge of acrophobia. Sitting "on the wing" in a Piper felt more like a "real aircraft", never a box kite, and with my butt planted on that "broad plank", there was never the slightest twinge of acrophobia.
  2. Although the "visibility" (mostly from a tourist/passenger's perspective) afforded a clear ground view, and better opportunities for aerial photography, I never appreciated the high wing dipping down to block the pilot's view into a turn (you quickly learn to clear the turn before you go there — but of course you should do that anyway). The Piper wing conveniently moves out of the way in a turn, yielding a better view into and through the turn.
  3. The Piper aircraft always felt far more stable in flight, and were quite stall/spin resistant. You had to seriously work at inducing a stall/spin event in "unusual attitude" training. Even then, the Piper's "stall" was pretty underwhelming; it would mostly just continue to mush along, nose high, slowly losing altitude, with the horizon no longer in view (that in itself should be a clue, eh?), with little tendency to fall away in a "real" stall. 'Twas nothing at all like the experience in an aerobatic aircraft (e.g. Citabria), where you'd get a clear, crisp nose down "break".
    Ditto for Piper's spin resistance; a spin — if with plenty of determination, you could actually get one started, the Piper's spin was pretty anemic, easily recoverable and nothing remotely "aerobatic".

  4. Yes, I also found the noise level in the Piper aircraft to be lower than in the Cessnas, and at a lower (audio) frequency as well.

Incidentally, stalls & spins are virtually never encountered in the real world, except for:

  1. Inadvertently entering into instrument flight (IFR) conditions at any time, through inattention, and failure to follow your instruments.
  2. On short final approach (the nastiest, with insufficient altitude for recovery):
    • If somewhat high, you may try to pull your nose up to slow the aircraft and lose altitude, (nose too high, airspeed too low = low level stall).

    A better plan: Bank to one side (preferably left for best visibility) with the wheel (ailerons) while counteracting the turning tendency with opposite (right) rudder, yielding a "forward slip", and decreasing your altitude by providing plenty of drag, effectively flying somewhat "left-broadside-forward", meanwhile keeping your airspeed up with power. (Sensibly, a most improbable, uncomfortable flight attitude.)

    Or if "low and slow", with a crosswind pushing your aircraft off the runway centerline alignment, where you may try to turn back toward the centerline, steepening your turn as you continue to drift off centerline, inviting a low level spin, potentially at risk of turning your propeller into a "post-hole auger"!

    Don't do that!
    Face it, what you have here is a "missed approach". Add power, regain control of the aircraft and go around for another try.
 
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Cirrus_Driver

Guest

The Cirrus SR-22 is pretty impressive. I've been watching videos of approach and landing at EAA from a couple weeks back with this plane.
Beautiful instrumentation, voice altitude ground proximity warning - very quiet ride.
How does a guy go about looking for something like this on the used market? 4-5 years old, let someone else take the depreciation hit?
Like to get this below 500 G sticker price on the new one here.
I'm meeting with the investment banker on Saturday, and so far I haven't been able to break the "models".
Even living high and large on Whitedust's lake - no impact.
Plane - lake home....plane - lake home? Hmmmm.
Unfortunately the wife gets a vote.
 
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frnash

Active member
The Cirrus SR-22 is pretty impressive. … Beautiful instrumentation, voice altitude ground proximity warning - very quiet ride. …
That' they are; luv that "glass cockpit"!
How does a guy go about looking for something like this on the used market? 4-5 years old, let someone else take the depreciation hit? …
The short answer, check out:

  1. (click →) Trade-A-Plane.
  2. (click →) Controller.
(There are others as well, but start there, I'm sure Google will suggest other sites.)

If you're buying used, don't fall for any sucker bait.
Do your "dude diligence", check the aircraft and engine logs, know what Airworthiness Directives (both one-time and recurring) are applicable and verify their compliance.
Better yet, work with a reliable A&E mechanic (preferably one with Inspection Authorization) on these items; maybe even have your A&E personally inspect the aircraft as well.

P.S.: Deprecation?
Well yes, that certainly is a factor if buying new, but it can be quite another story in the used market. It's all about supply vs. demand.
My partners and I bought our PA28-180C in 1970(?) used (manufactured in 1966), for $7200.00.

About two years into it we did a major engine (Lycoming O-360-A3A) overhaul by a local, reputable "shade tree" A&E mechanic (for ≈ $2,200(!) then, probably ≈ $15-20,000.00+ today) re-did the interior with new upholstery, and repainted it. Nothing else other than Annual Inspections, with oil analysis(!), minor incidental maintenance items, the occasional Airworthiness Directive, etc.

Then we sold it in 1991(?) for somewhere ≈ $20-22,000.
I like that for twenty years' "depreciation"!
 
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frnash

Active member
Just one more thing …

(click →) "Just one more thing.":
Now that you've developed a love for the Cirrus SR-22, be warned, don't look here!:

  1. (click →) Cirrus SR22T. See also (click →) Wikipedia: "Cirrus SR22 Turbocharged models".
  2. (click →) Cirrus Vision SF50. See also (click →) Wikipedia: "Cirrus Vision SF50".
They'll give you tears in yer eyes, and they'll "Warm the cockles of your heart.",
or as one of my GE/Honeywell colleagues yoosta say, they'll "Warm the hardles of your <bleep>˂bleep˃." :devilish:</bleep>

On the used market too of course. (This is whatcha call "upselling"! — Who, me? :angel:)
 
C

Cirrus_Driver

Guest
>>>Accidents and incidents[edit]
Between 2001 and May 2014, 147 US-registered Cirrus SR22 aircraft crashed, resulting in 122 fatalities.[58]

In 2011, the accident record of the SR20/SR22 was examined by Aviation Consumer magazine. It found that the series' overall accident record is better than average for light aircraft, exceeded only by the Diamond DA40 and DA42. However its fatal accident rate is worse, at 1.6 per 100,000 flight hours—which places it higher than the United States general aviation rate of 1.2, and higher than the Diamond DA40 (0.35), Cessna 172 (0.45), Diamond DA42 (0.54), Cessna 182 (0.69), and the Cessna 400 (1.0), despite the SR22's full aircraft parachute system.[59]

By the end of 2013, the accident rate had been reduced to a fatality rate of 1.01 per 100,000 flight hours. This was attributed to better training, particularly in use of the ballistic parachute system.[60]

The accident rate continued to decrease in 2014, with a fatal rate of .42 per 100,000 flight hours, one of the industry's lowest. This marked the fewest fatalities in a single year for Cirrus since 2001, and the first year where the number of CAPS deployments (12) exceeded the number of fatal accidents (3).[61][62][5]<<<<


Just one more thing......we are dating ourselves. I'll be sure not to let the wife read this.
Perspective would be fatalities per hour spent in an automobile. I'll have to look that up.
Looks like I need to find something 2014 or newer, with the significant improvement in accident statistics.
I'd be interested in your perception (FrNash) of the reason for the drop in this statistic, whether it would be related to pilots becoming familiar with the aircraft, or...
improvements in the quality, performance and reliability of the the plane?
It seems odd they would attribute this drop in fatality rate to training in use of the ballistic parachute system.
A person's going to spend 1/2 a million on a plane and not be fully trained and aware of the technical capabilities of the aircraft?
Sounds rather foolish to me, but then again I'm continuously amazed by the stupidity routinely displayed by the general public.
 
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T

Tracker

Guest
well the car thing....I know that on I-80/94 running along the bottom of Indiana and Chicago....that if your stalled and on that highway stretch on the side of the road...every 5 minutes is one lifetime....that means that every 5 minutes on the side you escape death one time....its so prevelant its not funny...between January 2005 and July 2007 study the Average daily traffic flow on Interstates 80 & 94 was approximately 160,000 vehicles daily, with a quarter being large trucks....now its upwards or 300,000...that's 12,500 per hour streaming by endlessly....it is a sight to behold at 2am to see truck convoys 3 lanes wide bumper to bumper for hours on end...its unbelievable until you actually witness it....so ya...forget that statistic dude...and if you want I can ask the guys and they will certainly know where a sweet SR-22 used is for sale...whats your budget? plus I can ask what they would recommend since they fly all manners of jets and planes and all around the world too....I will tell them your budget number....you ok with a repo? or do you want it certified and ready to take off....I think he prefers the KING AIR these days but that's out of your range...there is one for 795,000 used here

https://www.globalair.com/aircraft-for-sale/Twin-Engine-Turbine/Beechcraft

PS....at 2am I have seen a car break down in the middle lane...shut off lights and no flashers...and he walked away...tried to call police in time but I think someone slammed into in several minutes while I was trying to get them there...we were watching the truck convoys....it is truly a thing of wonder
 
C

Cirrus_Driver

Guest
Tracker - I've traveled that section MANY times at 2AM, +/- 1, 2 hours and it truly is total calamity.
I make sure I'm jacked up on 'Dew so I'm wired for sound, while the wife squirms in the seat next to me, and screams at unexpected, intermittent 10-15 minute intervals.
As I said, I'm talking to the investment banker on Saturday, so I'm going to use a $400,000 budget to see if I can "break the financial model", but hope to be less.
There's a beautiful SR20- G3 (200 HP vs. 310 SR22) - 2015, for $349,000 I have a hard-$! for at present, but I have to wonder why it's so inexpensive given it's completely overhauled with only 950 hours?
This is all preliminary/exploratory work, but I do appreciate your potential assistance. Will let you know when I get serious.
I have a bit of a sell with the wife yet, but she was pretty impressed when I showed her the initial pics of the SR22 a few weeks back.
 
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T

Tracker

Guest
ah so you DO KNOW the place....LMAO...screams every 15 minutes....I think your sugar coating that number my man.....ROTFLMAO....and the pilots probably know of THAT particular plane if you want me to find out about the WHY...there are certain states that they know the planes and their history....if its in minn they might know of it...you could PM link to plane your interested in and I will forward to them and ask them whats what with that one and find out the skinny on it if you so desireth.....and since you got money...lets talk those kids sleds...they are just sitting there....I put 1400 and new paint and all new OEM in yami 340....and 2500 and new 1.75 ripsaw on 1997 440 ZR....I will let yami go for....how aboot.....700 OBO?...and ZR....800 OBO?....is that low enough?...let me know....or 1200 package deal? I can deliver provided I can bring ATV and we run on trails for a day up by youse


oops after posting pics I see it was RP7X that was interested in them...not you...X thru me off...LOL...anywho pics


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Cirrus_Driver

Guest
From what I can tell after a couple hours of research, the reason it's cheaper is because it's the SR20, not SR22.
Quite a few SR20's out there for around that price, same year, similar or higher hours.
200 HP vs. 310 HP makes no big diff to me at this point, I'm more interested in the avionics, and the SR20 looks like it has enough.
 

frnash

Active member
… I'd be interested in your perception (FrNash) of the reason for the drop in this statistic, whether it would be related to pilots becoming familiar with the aircraft, or...
improvements in the quality, performance and reliability of the the plane? …
On that I haven't a clue!

A few semi-random thoughts:

1. It has often been said that "The drive to the airport is much more of a risk than the flight."

2. I was always heavy into IFR skills. Although I had absolutely no intention of getting an instrument rating, nor incurring the additional expenses of a fully IFR equipped aircraft, nor of ever deliberately venturing into IFR conditions, I certainly wanted to ensure that if that should inadvertently occur, I could handle it well enough to extricate myself from the situation, preferably with ATC assistance.

3. I spent quite a bit of time working on a commercial pilot rating on the G.I. Bill, with the hope of being able to write off some flight expenses as "business expenses" (visiting actual or potential real estate properties, etc. perhaps?), in spite of the fact that I couldn't have any confidence that my vision would consistently meet the associated second class medical certificate requirements. I finally abandoned that plan when my flight instructor left to become an Alaskan bush pilot, and the FBO I was working with clearly was more interested in milking that G.I. Bill than in my commercial rating — they never consistently assigned me another flight instructor.

4. I have never permitted myself to succumb to "I've-got-to-get-home-itis", or to "press on regardless" in the face of deteriorating weather.

In fact, on one trip from Phoenix Deer Valley Airport (DVT) to Houghton County Memorial Airport (CMX), I spent three days at the old Denver Stapleton Airport waiting for a break in the weather. Although for most of that time I could have flown around the traffic pattern at Stapleton with no problem, the airport was located in a "bowl", with a solid overcast above and weather reaching to at least the SW corner of Minnesota. With a break in the weather, I was finally able to depart to the northeast, shortly to "VFR on top" conditions above a solid cloud layer at 1-2000 ft AGL and as flat as a pancake, which terminated as forecast about 15 miles short of my planned fuel stop at Joe Foss Field, Sioux Falls, SD (FSD). All that IFR training was certainly helpful in that case. On an early evening arrival at CMX, the local weather had deteriorated a bit, with some lower level scattered to mostly broken clouds, necessitating something close to a "Special VFR" arrival — something I generally would not be wildly enthusiastic about without being intimately familiar with the area.

5. For many years it was frequently said that "physician pilots crash at a higher rate per flight hour than other pilots"[SUP]1[/SUP], for example (FWIW):
"… It is possible that physicians are more likely than other pilots to buy high-performance aircraft that require more time for mastery than their schedules may allow. In addition, physicians may take risks (e.g., fly when fatigued or in bad weather) in order to meet the demands of a busy medical practice. From 1986 through 2005, a total of 816 physician and dentist pilots were involved in general aviation crashes; of them, 270 (33%) were fatally injured. Physician and dentist pilots accounted for 1.6% of all general aviation crashes and 3.0% of pilot fatalities."

(Carol Floyd, BS, National Transportation Safety Board, written communication, February 2, 2007).

See the flip side also:
(click ) Air Facts - Technique/December 9, 2015, by G. Stuart Mendenhall: "Are doctors bad pilots?".

There are probably some valuable lessons in the above two items for all of us.

[[SUP]1[/SUP] Booze CF Jr. Epidemiologic investigation of occupation, age, and exposure in aviation accidents. Aviat Space Environ Med. 1977;48:1081-1091.]
 
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warner

Active member
on the topic of cost to obtain a private pilots license..in 2013 I earned my private pilots license with a tail wheel endorsement..believe that journey cost me 7000.00
learned to fly in a piper cherokee and a piper cub i loved that cub and the grass strips i learned on
renting was 115.00hr wet
 
C

Cirrus_Driver

Guest
on the topic of cost to obtain a private pilots license..in 2013 I earned my private pilots license with a tail wheel endorsement..believe that journey cost me 7000.00
learned to fly in a piper cherokee and a piper cub i loved that cub and the grass strips i learned on
renting was 115.00hr wet

Thanks for the comment. Was that cost instrument qualified, or just VFR?
 
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