Airplanes - Twin Engine Cessna - Maintenance / Hanger

frnash

Active member
Flight training - by immersion!

Obtaining a Private Pilot Certificate today is estimated by AOPA as requiring 4 months and ≈$7,000.
(Flying 2-3 times a week; less frequently = more time, more $$.)

I was working on my private pilot certificate while I was at Fifth US Army Data Processing Service Center, Presidio of San Francisco, CA, (circa 1966+).

At first I joined the (click →) Hamilton AFB Flying Club.

Although it certainly was interesting doing basic flight training on an active Air Force Base and sharing the single 8000' Rwy 12/30 with the Air Defense Command's 78th Fighter Wing and their McDonnell F-101A Voodoos and Convair F-106A Delta Darts(!), coordinating my duty schedule, an aircraft (C-150) and a flight instructor turned out to be a frustrating exercise.

In frustration, I finally moved my flight training a bit further north to Petaluma Sky Ranch Airport, with a single paved 2,200' runway Rwy 11/29 now (click →) Petaluma Municipal Airport (O69) (the runway has since grown to 3602'), and I switched from those silly Cessna "box kites" (sorry, they always felt like that to me) to a "real aircraft", any of several Piper Cherokee 180s. Doing one's basic flight training at such a smaller venue rather than at a major hub can yield a definite savings, with less expensive time spent on other distractions and overhead.

I undertook a fairly intensive flight training plan, scheduling a 1-hour session (aircraft & flight instructor) each Saturday and Sunday morning and afternoon. I lived on that airport on weekends! It would have been even more effective if I could have scheduled more frequent mid-week sessions as well, but that didn't fit my duty schedule.

I spent the down time on those days reviewing the previous hour of flight instruction and studying the related "ground school materials" in order to get the most benefit out of each following session. Ditto before each Saturday morning session. That and soaking up the airport/aviation environment and "lingo".

Note, this is not trivial.

Had I scheduled less frequent flight training sessions (say once a month) I would have had to spend far too much of each session reviewing the previous hour's instruction, which could have easily doubled the number of hours of flight instruction, and doubled the cost, as was happening at HAFB.

I no longer have the numbers handy, but I'd guess it cost something short of $4000 to get that Private Pilot License the way I did it. Figuring for inflation over 50 years, that would be $22,000 - $28,000 in 2017 dollars by various estimates. (That seems more realistic to me than AOPA's $7,000.00 estimate.) "Your mileage may vary."

Another "full immersion flight training plan" might be through enrollment in the likes of Embry–Riddle Aeronautical University (ERAU). (Prescott, AZ!, Daytona Beach, FL!) Very thorough, immersive, but mucho mo' 'spensive.

The lesson: Don't play at your flight instruction, get intensive, do it like you mean it, or it'll eat your wallet alive.

Fortunately my flight instructor also gave considerable emphasis to instruction in Instrument (IFR) flight. I spent a generous amount of time "under the hood" flying solely by reference to the instruments, while he would attempt several disorientation tactics. Although I never went on to obtain an IFR rating, I learned enough to ensure that I could operate in IFR conditions in an emergency, should I unexpectedly find myself therein.

That must have worked. On my cross-country flights, after getting my Private Pilot Certificate, I made it a practice to always ask ATC for a handoff to FAA'S VFR Flight Following Service, then stay with them for the duration of my flight. My primary reason, beyond the other benefits of that service was to keep me on my game. If I knew my flight was painting a clearly identifiable track on ATC's radar, while I was in radio contact with the controller, it was a bit more motivation to "keep it on rails" in the center of the airway and not wander about.

Incidentally, while at Michigan Tech (ca. 1958-1964), one of my roommates was the president of the Michigan Tech Flying Club, and he often was willing to accommodate a volunteer passenger on local flights around da UP. (Thanks, Howard!)

I also spent exceeding many long hours at nights studying like a good college student. … Studying? Hah! No — hanging around at the FAA Flight Service Station then located at the Houghton County Airport (CMX), hanging out with the on duty Flight Service Specialist, and learning any and everything I could about Aviation Weather, Air Traffic Communications phraseology, and anything else I could.

On one of several occasions I joined a white haired grandmotherly GS9 civilian employee at the Fifth US Army Data Processing Service Center on a flight in her V-tailed Bonanza(!) from Oakland International (OAK) to Rogue Valley International - Medford Airport, OR (MFR) for no better reason than that it was a nice day to go flying. But that trip (at a cruise altitude of 14,000' or higher) passing Mount Shasta (14,179 ft.) presented an opportunity to personally learn what signs/symptoms of hypoxia that I might experience, by deliberately removing my oxygen mask and continuing my "cockpit duties", estimating checkpoints for the remainder of the trip. My first symptom was the utter mental confusion and puzzlement experienced while simply trying to read/interpret the outside air temperature gauge! And later observing the slight blue tinge at the fingernails. Okay, experiment over, back on the oxy!

I also had an opportunity to experience a Bárány chair at Luke AFB in Phoenix, which is used to demonstrate spatial disorientation effects, proving that the vestibular system is not to be trusted in flight. That pretty firmly reinforces the fact that pilots should instead rely on their flight instruments!

(I have included much of the above to emphasize the benefits of learning by "full immersion in aviation", FWIW.)
 
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frnash

Active member
I have rented this...renting is cheap..farthest was to key west for 7 days
C-172-N: $115/h
*Aircraft rental requires valid Pilot’s License, Medical, Renter’s Insurance, and a checkout with a Company Pilot. Usually this will take about an hour.*

https://www.regionflyers.com/aircraft-rental/
FYI: Tracker's link to Region Flyers' web site looks like a very good preliminary idea of flight training & aircraft rental pricing.
Of course the usual caveat applies: "Your mileage may vary".
 

Wyelde

New member
My partner is a pilot and owns a twin engine airplane. To fly something like that goes way beyond obtaining your basic pilots license, first, you need to do the additional coursework for your IFR (instrument rating) and you have to do additional certifications on the particular plane. Then you have to build hours. He has to get re-certified annually, (but that may be because he occasionally does medical delivery flights) and he has to get specialized annual physicals. To take this beyond a hobby takes a lot of time, money, and dedication.

I like your corvette idea though!
 
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Tracker

Guest
Tracker - when you rented by the hour to fly to Key West, do they go by the time on the aircraft (seems obvious), and how long did it take you to fly to KW?
And how many stops along the way, and what types of airports and where did you stop on the way?
What kind of speeds do you fly at in that thing?

so can you fly outta lansing airport and this plane? you don't say where your from in web info. if you can I know the guys and can give you some leadway on cost if you tie it up at an airport. plus we made a trip out of it once we rented it...4 of us...no problems....wasn't as bad as an elan...maybe yami 340ish or Jdeere 440ish....we passed cars ever so slowly so theres that but we went as the crow flies so time wise it was quick...and there was excitement....you can roll down windows and open doors in flight for airconditioning and fighting to push your buddy out...so theres that...and we went to Indiana beach first and fueled there and played around....might I suggest machine gun game with red star to shoot out...then to tenessee to see cousins...then to Virginia beach for more thongs....and then on down...we took our sweet as time to enjoy and smell the roses....if your really serious I will get you prices and particulars and how much it was and how long it took for us...we had luggage too and it got off the ground swimmingly. no TSA and no waiting...so theres that....stop in Nashville for some BBQ ribs
 
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Cirrus_Driver

Guest
Years ago a couple of buddies of mine rented a Cessna 150 and flew out to Wisc for a funeral. On the way back they encountered a strong headwind. The cars on the interstate were passing them. They had to land to refuel to make it home.

That's actually funny, and the reason why if I do it, I'm not going for some low-end single prop plane.
 
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Cirrus_Driver

Guest
Thanks Mr. frnash - that was ALL very useful information. I read it carefully and attentively, as you write very well.
Now to find 2-4 people that want to enter into a venture of this nature. This could be an extreme challenge, as 2 of my 3 brothers are not as well off as I.
Bro in NJ (PHD in Quantum Physics working for major defense contractor) could be a candidate, but his liberal philosophy may challenge the limits of my collaborative abilities.

- - - Updated - - -

so can you fly outta lansing airport and this plane? you don't say where your from in web info. if you can I know the guys and can give you some leadway on cost if you tie it up at an airport. plus we made a trip out of it once we rented it...4 of us...no problems....wasn't as bad as an elan...maybe yami 340ish or Jdeere 440ish....we passed cars ever so slowly so theres that but we went as the crow flies so time wise it was quick...and there was excitement....you can roll down windows and open doors in flight for airconditioning and fighting to push your buddy out...so theres that...and we went to Indiana beach first and fueled there and played around....might I suggest machine gun game with red star to shoot out...then to tenessee to see cousins...then to Virginia beach for more thongs....and then on down...we took our sweet as time to enjoy and smell the roses....if your really serious I will get you prices and particulars and how much it was and how long it took for us...we had luggage too and it got off the ground swimmingly. no TSA and no waiting...so theres that....stop in Nashville for some BBQ ribs

LMAO as usual! You one funny azz dude. We GOTTA ride.
As I stated in an earlier post, theoretically I'd be flying out of an airport somewhere in northern WI. Whatever's most economical and within reasonable distance of central Vilas Cty.
 
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Cirrus_Driver

Guest
https://cirrusaircraft.com/aircraft/sr22/
http://cirrusaircraft.com/innovation/airframe-parachute/

Now that is one sweet aircraft, and the type of insurance that would make me sleep better the night before a flight. (I'm the type the suffers from a degree of anxiety in certain situations)

@frnash - in your experience, have you ever needed to test your ability to land a single engine aircraft without power?
How common of an occurrence do you realistically think this would be, given all the required maintenance you have on these engines?
 
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Tracker

Guest
https://cirrusaircraft.com/aircraft/sr22/
http://cirrusaircraft.com/innovation/airframe-parachute/

(I'm the type the suffers from a degree of anxiety in certain situations)

@frnash - in your experience, have you ever needed to test your ability to land a single engine aircraft without power?

one... I can cure anxiety...I tell everyone that goes with me on any adventure and it sure does make them feel better...I tell them this....

if its any consolation to you, I will MAKE SURE I die first...OK?

wings over body....possible glide....wings on body....the rock.....your thinking too much into it dude....its like this....have you ever had to stop your sled without brakes? same thing plane without power...yes it can be done....just make sure that isn't a thorn tree up ahead or there will be some residual
 
G

G

Guest
About ten years ago a crop duster friend of mine lost the engine while spraying. He had just started a field and was heavy with chemical. The engine locked up while he was pulling up after a pass. So he was only about 30 feet off the ground max. Very low airspeed. By sheer dumb luck there was a dirt field road just off to his left and he put it down hard. Because he was full the landing gear twisted up but it held long enough to get stopped. I think they ended up totalling the plane but he didn't get a scratch. He said everything was normal. Oil pressure good, water temp good and nothing sounded out of the ordinary. So things can and do happen even if all your maintenence gets done. Don't mean to scare you off XXX but it is not yet a foolproof or idiot proof past time.
 

frnash

Active member
… @frnash - in your experience, have you ever needed to test your ability to land a single engine aircraft without power?
How common of an occurrence do you realistically think this would be, given all the required maintenance you have on these engines?

Nope, not other than while working on my Commercial Pilot Certificate at Phoenix Deer Valley Airport (DVT) in the early 1970s, while in the local practice area when my flight instructor pulled the power and said: "Now what are you going to do, where are you going to put it down?".

I picked a field, headed for it, set up the landing approach, then when it was clear that we'd make it, he pushed the throttle, restoring the power, and said, "You made it, let's go back up."

… How common of an occurrence do you realistically think this would be, given all the required maintenance you have on these engines?
Pretty rare. Although I do have an interesting tale from my personal experience that I'll add here later after I take some time to assemble all the details.

[In doing some research I've stumbled onto some other useful information that I'll be adding in a further note first.]
 
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Tracker

Guest
triple X...theres a really good reason WHY they rent this type and this one dude.....so any yoke, doke and bloke can fly and land this thing with or without power....LOL...wings....top side for glide babay...and you can go out side on the wheels steps and be a flying wallenda over I-65...just saayin'

N737PW-500x350.jpg
 

frnash

Active member
Aircraft Maintenance, Engines, Airworthiness Directives …

Some wise advice:

1. From blogspot.com (click →) "The Real Cost of Aircraft Ownership - Engine Overhauls".

2. From AvWeb: (click →) "The Ten Biggest Lies About Piston Aircraft Engines".

(I about fell off my chair when I saw that — I haven't seen Mike Busch since visiting his home in Long Beach, CA, ca. 1970, when he was still flying his first C-182!)

3. Before buying an aircraft (particularly a used aircraft), learn about (click →) FAA Airworthiness Directives, and what they can mean to the cost of maintaining your aircraft — and possibly the depletion of your bank account.

(The aircraft, the engine and virtually each separate component may be the subject of an AD. Some of which are of an emergency nature requiring immediate compliance prior to further flight, others (most) require compliance within a specified period of time (calendar or flight/engine hours), and some require repair or recurring inspection of some component.)
 
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elf

Well-known member
dude...not sure if you looked or tried that open airplane link...in it I found 3 planes to rent out of BEMIJDI MN....for a whooping cost of 75 to 105 dollars an hour...wowsers cheap

https://www.openairplane.com/operators/bemidji-aviation/

When i was taking lessons the Cessna 172 rented for $70/hr. That was in Cloquet, MN.

The comment about no power reminds me of my lessons also. The instructor reached over and killed the power and asked what was i going to do now. My response was "ask you to restart the plane!" Of course he didn't and we glided in for one of my better landings. And that was only my third lesson so if I could do it, anybody can!
 
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Cirrus_Driver

Guest
dude...not sure if you looked or tried that open airplane link...in it I found 3 planes to rent out of BEMIJDI MN....for a whooping cost of 75 to 105 dollars an hour...wowsers cheap

https://www.openairplane.com/operators/bemidji-aviation/

I'm in the early stages of information gathering - particularly cost. Long ways away from renting, but those planes look boring to me, what do I know. Like driving a Ski-Doo Tundra ice fishing.
That Cirrus SR22 is $539K new, so forget that.
 
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goingnorth

New member
I'm in the early stages of information gathering - particularly cost. Long ways away from renting, but those planes look boring to me, what do I know. Like driving a Ski-Doo Tundra ice fishing.
That Cirrus SR22 is $539K new, so forget that.

Here's something a little more exciting for ya, they used to have the office next to me. A L-39 jet trainer could be had for has a little as $139,000 a couple of years ago. Aviation is all over the board, like snowmobliing a few get it and lots don't

http://www.gauntletaerospace.com/
 
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Cirrus_Driver

Guest
Here's something a little more exciting for ya, they used to have the office next to me. A L-39 jet trainer could be had for has a little as $139,000 a couple of years ago. Aviation is all over the board, like snowmobliing a few get it and lots don't

http://www.gauntletaerospace.com/

Jet flight is something that will NEVER happen for me. No interest - way too dangerous and expensive. That's the far end of the excitement spectrum.
 
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