Crooked DNR
- Thread starter red600ho
- Start date
anonomoose
New member
I hesitate to wade into this topic, but it seems that there are some basic questions left unanswered or asked here.
If this was truly public land, compared to private land, bait pile placement might be very hard to stick to any one individual who was not caught red handed with the bait...and even the fact that there was bait there...if it was visible, or not, or if still a "viable bait pile" by the time YOU hunted over it...or near it would be a tall order to prove.
If you gave up information and volunteered self incriminating statements, then you may well have provoked the agents to stick you with the violations.
Assuming you did NOT volunteer shooting over the bait, and assuming this was public land, where you might not control the use of the "stand" blind, or whatever it was that you were hunting from, this is going to be a tough one to prosecute. Even though the rules favor the "presumption" that you knew that there was bait there, in a court of law this is going to be hard to prove compared to hunting in a private blind or private property situation.
For a judge to find against you on this, he would have to be satisfied that YOU knew the food was there first....and he would have to be satisfied that you did hunt there knowing that someone...anyone ...put the food out there.
Even though there are rules against hunting over bait, these rules need to conform to established basic legal rights everyone has that assumes you are innocent until proved reasonably that you violated the rule and that the rule is NOT unreasonable.
However, in the real world, you might be innocent, but the preponderance of evidence is enough for any prudent judge to find you guilty of the infraction.
And even if you are innocent, by the time you spend the bucks on an attorney to prove your innocent, you will very likely spend more than had you paid the fine to begin with.
I can see this one getting plead out to a lesser charge with any "retroactive" charge from the previous season, being thrown out for lack of evidence.
Two points were brought out here that need adding to.
One is that you usually say too much which puts you into trouble. Be cooperative, but don't volunteer more information than that which you were asked to provide. Don't elaborate.
Secondly, NOBODY can sign away their legal rights...by signing any license, or contract or any other document that removes your basic legal rights. That act itself is against the law and it is very unlikely a judge wouldn't agree with this.
If you get a fair judge who doesn't just rubber stamp what the officers submit (which is always a possibility), you stand a good chance of getting this one reduced to something far less damaging if not tossed completely.
If this was truly public land, compared to private land, bait pile placement might be very hard to stick to any one individual who was not caught red handed with the bait...and even the fact that there was bait there...if it was visible, or not, or if still a "viable bait pile" by the time YOU hunted over it...or near it would be a tall order to prove.
If you gave up information and volunteered self incriminating statements, then you may well have provoked the agents to stick you with the violations.
Assuming you did NOT volunteer shooting over the bait, and assuming this was public land, where you might not control the use of the "stand" blind, or whatever it was that you were hunting from, this is going to be a tough one to prosecute. Even though the rules favor the "presumption" that you knew that there was bait there, in a court of law this is going to be hard to prove compared to hunting in a private blind or private property situation.
For a judge to find against you on this, he would have to be satisfied that YOU knew the food was there first....and he would have to be satisfied that you did hunt there knowing that someone...anyone ...put the food out there.
Even though there are rules against hunting over bait, these rules need to conform to established basic legal rights everyone has that assumes you are innocent until proved reasonably that you violated the rule and that the rule is NOT unreasonable.
However, in the real world, you might be innocent, but the preponderance of evidence is enough for any prudent judge to find you guilty of the infraction.
And even if you are innocent, by the time you spend the bucks on an attorney to prove your innocent, you will very likely spend more than had you paid the fine to begin with.
I can see this one getting plead out to a lesser charge with any "retroactive" charge from the previous season, being thrown out for lack of evidence.
Two points were brought out here that need adding to.
One is that you usually say too much which puts you into trouble. Be cooperative, but don't volunteer more information than that which you were asked to provide. Don't elaborate.
Secondly, NOBODY can sign away their legal rights...by signing any license, or contract or any other document that removes your basic legal rights. That act itself is against the law and it is very unlikely a judge wouldn't agree with this.
If you get a fair judge who doesn't just rubber stamp what the officers submit (which is always a possibility), you stand a good chance of getting this one reduced to something far less damaging if not tossed completely.
I went to court the other day and pleaded not guilty. Then talked to DNR guy who was in court that day. And explaining to him what is going on. Explaining to him that Warden Sharbarth assumed I was baiting and issued me the citation. Then the he said well I don't have the authority to dimiss this or do a plea deal. So I am turning this over the DA's office and you can dicuss it with him. So basically the DNR is done with it and I should be able to get it dismissed now.
Update
My pre-trial hearing with the DA was monday the 21st. Seeing we just had a good winter storm the night before. I thought I better call ahead and see if there is going to be anybody in the office. And sure enough there was and she said the DA handling my case couldn't make it in so we are going to reschedule. I asked if I could take to another DA and she said NO. I was willing to drive to Stevens Point from Oshkosh. No stay home because the roads are really bad. So I have to wait another month. Talk about dragging there heals.
My pre-trial hearing with the DA was monday the 21st. Seeing we just had a good winter storm the night before. I thought I better call ahead and see if there is going to be anybody in the office. And sure enough there was and she said the DA handling my case couldn't make it in so we are going to reschedule. I asked if I could take to another DA and she said NO. I was willing to drive to Stevens Point from Oshkosh. No stay home because the roads are really bad. So I have to wait another month. Talk about dragging there heals.
Update
I finally had my meeting with the DA. When I meet with her as soon as I sat down she says all I can offer is a reduction of the fine and forfeiture of the deer. And you can have the stand back. The fine was reduced from $387.50 to $212.25 and forfeiture. And I said nope not going to work.
Then I asked for proof it was me putting the bait in the woods. And the DA said we don't need proof it is circumstantial. You were caught in the woods and admitted shooting a deer. And I did remind her it was public woods so anybody could put it out there. She didn’t have any comment to that. Just tell it to the judge and he will give you a guilty or not guilty verdict.
So I’m going to trial June 30 at 9:30. Bring it.
I finally had my meeting with the DA. When I meet with her as soon as I sat down she says all I can offer is a reduction of the fine and forfeiture of the deer. And you can have the stand back. The fine was reduced from $387.50 to $212.25 and forfeiture. And I said nope not going to work.
Then I asked for proof it was me putting the bait in the woods. And the DA said we don't need proof it is circumstantial. You were caught in the woods and admitted shooting a deer. And I did remind her it was public woods so anybody could put it out there. She didn’t have any comment to that. Just tell it to the judge and he will give you a guilty or not guilty verdict.
So I’m going to trial June 30 at 9:30. Bring it.
good luck
anonomoose
New member
No loss of licensing for set period of time?
Expect another offer at the steps in June.
Also, you need to get an attorney...this shows that you are serious, further showing a strength in position.
Don't try and do this on your own....as once pointed out, a person who represents himself in court has a fool for a client. Judge definitely looks upon this the same way.
Expect another offer at the steps in June.
Also, you need to get an attorney...this shows that you are serious, further showing a strength in position.
Don't try and do this on your own....as once pointed out, a person who represents himself in court has a fool for a client. Judge definitely looks upon this the same way.
windingtrailgal
Active member
red600 - good luck. Glad you've kept us posted on this fight you've got on your hands.
And I do agree with moose - it's atty time. Start asking around....ya never know? May find an avid hunter willing to do some pro bono work or possibly a nice reduced rate since it's not going to cost him too many hours of his time.
wtg
And I do agree with moose - it's atty time. Start asking around....ya never know? May find an avid hunter willing to do some pro bono work or possibly a nice reduced rate since it's not going to cost him too many hours of his time.
wtg
Good good luck to you red600, I respect your courage, I myself was charged w/ a felony by the DNR in order to pressure me into accepting a 400.00 misdemeanor fine. The threat of a felony is often used to scare individuals into accepting a lessor charge. Your lawyer, should you have one, or you yourself if you're going pro se might consider filing a motion to dismiss based on that motive. (the Criminal Law Manual has a pre made form for that motion to dismiss based on leverage of a felony to coerce into accepting a lesser fine). I am not a lawyer. I have a family and a reputation to protect for job hunting purposes, even so I was adamant about not paying a single cent for something I didn't do. However, in the end, it got too much for me, I imagined a jury who might not understand "innocent until proven guilty" and a judge who might have a bad sentencing day and consequently potential 6 years in jail. I tried to keep the whole affair from my daughter but she found out and began to worry about life without her dad, she insisted to her mother that she would come to stay with me in jail rather than live w/ relatives.
I accepted a plea, paid a fine, and had the felony dropped. I pleaded no contest to the misdemeanor so am open to a civil suit which I intend to pursue for illegal search and seizure. If you plan on filing a civil suit you must state so within 120 in a letter to the Dept of Justice.
What happened was that I had gone up to my remote property for a few days to do some work on it; as it is vacant property, I slept in my van, the DNR woke me up late at night by going through my possessions, I thought they were thieves, without probable cause they began to search my vehicle, when I left the vehicle they chased me, struck me violently on the head and accused me of battery to cover up their excessive force.
As you can see, you are not alone. I propose that we get as many of us together as possible and file a class action suit of some sort based on DNR abuse. When the law treats law abiding citizens like criminals it is time we back Walker in his anti DNR stance.
I accepted a plea, paid a fine, and had the felony dropped. I pleaded no contest to the misdemeanor so am open to a civil suit which I intend to pursue for illegal search and seizure. If you plan on filing a civil suit you must state so within 120 in a letter to the Dept of Justice.
What happened was that I had gone up to my remote property for a few days to do some work on it; as it is vacant property, I slept in my van, the DNR woke me up late at night by going through my possessions, I thought they were thieves, without probable cause they began to search my vehicle, when I left the vehicle they chased me, struck me violently on the head and accused me of battery to cover up their excessive force.
As you can see, you are not alone. I propose that we get as many of us together as possible and file a class action suit of some sort based on DNR abuse. When the law treats law abiding citizens like criminals it is time we back Walker in his anti DNR stance.
Firecatguy
New member
wow
I deal with the DNR almost everyday as part of my job in the construction industry. I've been at this job for 8yrs and I have watched them get bolder with every passing year. It has been really interesting watching them this year. It is pretty funny actually; they appear to be rats who just got light shown on them. Half are scrambling for the door and the rest are just running scared. They are aware that their heavy handed actions have started to come to light, and a majority of the public feels that they are out of control. I feel that a lot of them are leaving to prevent having to answer for their actions under previous administrations. The silent majority needs to speak out, environmentalists know how to be loud and get their voices heard, everyone else needs to do more than just vote.
I just hope that laws get changed, because otherwise when Walker leaves they will be back to their same old tricks.
I just hope that laws get changed, because otherwise when Walker leaves they will be back to their same old tricks.
Red:
Although you never asked for any help I would like to make a small donation to help with your legal costs for this issue. I strongly believe a citizen standing up for their rights and not letting anyone use thier power to intimadate them.
I have sent a donation by PayPal to your e mail address listed on this site, please accept it without a strings attached.
GOOD LUCK WITH YOUR CASE
lofsfire
Active member
Ya, what he said!
The trial is in the morning. It was suppose to be June 30th, but the Court rescheduled it for July 15th at 11am.
On a side note if anyone reads the Wisconsin Outdoor News magazine. A couple of months ago there was a article in there about a deer farm with cwd in Almond, then bought by the DNR. I hunt right across the street from this place. And that is where the DNR walked up to me and this whole thing started.
On a side note if anyone reads the Wisconsin Outdoor News magazine. A couple of months ago there was a article in there about a deer farm with cwd in Almond, then bought by the DNR. I hunt right across the street from this place. And that is where the DNR walked up to me and this whole thing started.
Dismissed!
Had my day in court today and the judge dimissed the cititation. He said to the DNR that being that you could not prove I placed the bait in the woods and this is open to the public. Anybody could have put it there. I am goin gto have to dismiss this and return the property to me.
Judge said the DNR statements were creditable and when I answered his questions I was also creditable. But I was sweating pretty could while hearing the DNR officer answer the states attorney's questions and trying to discredit me as a hunter.
Then I got up on the stand and was questioned by the judge. And everytime I answered his question I spoke clearly and looked him directly in the eye and did not think long on my answers. And when he directly asked if I placed any bait prior to hunting I looked him in the face and said NO.
Glad this is all over and I can get my head finished and get it home so I can apperciate it more.
Thanks to everyone for the support through this and to the few who doubted me, Thanks to you too it helped me make sure I keep my facts straight. Now maybe I can sleep now at night.
Tim Klabunde
Oshkosh, WI
Had my day in court today and the judge dimissed the cititation. He said to the DNR that being that you could not prove I placed the bait in the woods and this is open to the public. Anybody could have put it there. I am goin gto have to dismiss this and return the property to me.
Judge said the DNR statements were creditable and when I answered his questions I was also creditable. But I was sweating pretty could while hearing the DNR officer answer the states attorney's questions and trying to discredit me as a hunter.
Then I got up on the stand and was questioned by the judge. And everytime I answered his question I spoke clearly and looked him directly in the eye and did not think long on my answers. And when he directly asked if I placed any bait prior to hunting I looked him in the face and said NO.
Glad this is all over and I can get my head finished and get it home so I can apperciate it more.
Thanks to everyone for the support through this and to the few who doubted me, Thanks to you too it helped me make sure I keep my facts straight. Now maybe I can sleep now at night.
Tim Klabunde
Oshkosh, WI