gun violence

[mjkaliszak]

This is such a complex issue. I would tend to believe that our mental health facilities & programs is in a defuncto state... ( yes nash I made that word up ). I don't know how you stop a suicide bomber or a young buck deranged post teenager from doing this type of thing. Anyone that would kill their Mom ??? then go on a rampage targeting such young children whom can't even comprehend what is happening ??? Is beyond my understanding ! People kill people ! I believe that opening up the gun free zones is a good start. Just 1 CW could have possibly changed things.

I fail to understand how the mother ( RIP ) did not know her son had problems , and big ones ! Or his alleged brother .
I agree with durphee & others... it is a discussion about mental health.
Part of the problem is that parents stopped raising their kids, they seem to not want to be a family unit. They buy them stuff to pacify them. Let alone the video games.... jeepers peepers ! AND the desensitizing of the society by the media...
This is a very complex issue, but this is where we are at as a civilization.

 

[snocrazy]

People kill people.

Seems the weapon of choice in China is a knife when going after kids.....
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1988758,00.html

"But lack of access to mental health care is a larger underlying factor that likely contributed to the recent violence, says Ding. A study of four Chinese provinces published in medical journal the Lancet last June found that among individuals with a diagnosable mental illness, just 5% had seen a mental health professional."

We need these kinds of people identified and watched if allowed to be part of society. I know I can usually tell when some one is "not right in the head". I would think it would be much easier for a professional doctor type.

 

[bobt]

I don't really want to get into this here to any great extent, but just a brief note:

I noted that one of the participants on one of the Sunday morning talking heads shows today (Was it Sen. Schemer, er … Schumer of New York?) asked something about what possible need there was for anyone to have any kind of firearm in a school situation.

Well gee, in my high school days, I was in the Junior ROTC program, and was also on the rifle team. We had a rifle range in the high school basement. Yes, I brought my target rifle (.22 cal) to school fired it on the basement rifle range, and participated in every possible rifle match. But, strangely, I never once wandered the halls shooting up classmates, teachers, or anything of the like. Can you imagine?

Moving on to college, of course I was involved in the Senior ROTC program, and of course the Michigan Tech Army ROTC Rifle Team and the Michigan Tech Pistol Club as well, bringing my target rifle and two pistols with me. The rifle/pistol range was in the basement of the library annex, behind the library (now the Academic Office Building). Still, I never once wandered the campus buildings shooting up classmates, teachers, or anything of the like. Mind boggling, eh?

So what has changed in the fifty or so years since?

Our schools have become virtual prisons, with fences, gates, metal detectors — all but razor wire, and with the "inmates" locked in for the entire school day. What a wonderful learning environment! Heck, our ol' high school ROTC "gang" used to routinely duck off campus for lunch at a local deli about a block away.

As a life member of the NRA since high school, I have seen the battle with the "gun grabbers" then and since. Funny how they are almost uniformly the same ones that freed the psych cases from the mental institutions to wander the streets, and the same ones "molly-coddling" felons. Can you see anything wrong with this picture?

As the saying goes: "Guns don't kill people, people kill people!"
Focus people, deal with the nut cases, not the guns!

Note also how the present day school shootings and the like have been committed by whack jobs who typically off themselves in the process as well. Sounds a bit like a suicide bomber in Afghanistan? I see little difference. If the gun grabbers succeed in denying these whack jobs access to guns — along with law abiding citizens, will they be any happier when the next whack job simply emulates a suicide bomber with an "improvised explosive device" (IED) strapped to his body? These nut cases have typically been quite intelligent, if mentally warped. Trust me, it would be a relatively trivial exercise for almost any them to construct an IED.

With that said, I am done, and I will have nothing further to say on this subject.

Best question of the year to ask yourselves: "So what has changed in the fifty or so years since?"

I have my own thoughts on that,,,,, it used to be the problems in schools during the 50's, 60's & 70's were chewing gum under the tables, marks on the floors from people wearing "cleats" on shoes/boots and once in a while a fist fight after school. ( How many of you know what "cleats" are? )

I know some things that changed were kicking God & the 10 commandments out of school and also the film/movies & video games that glorify killing were not around back then, these things "could" have made it possible for the
" The chickens to come home to roost".

( Hope I didn't cross the line here J.D. )

 

[88skier]

This is an exceedingly complex issue. I don't think anyone is arguing for repeal of the second amendment, but perhaps something should be done to resolve the underlying issues. For better or worse, America has a gun culture. Some interesting facts on guns, violence, and gun control that aren't from MSNBC or the NRA are below. Stats concerning "more guns tend to mean more homicide" are backed by the scientific literature.

6 facts

Similar list but with a few extras:

http://seattletimes.com/text/2019907299.html

 

[98panther]

Anyone see the new Bond movie? His gun was his gun, Wouldn't work for anyone but him.
Easily the technology is available to do this.

Would it solve anything? I don't know.

I see the crowds in the CC school near here, and see people that are getting their permits.
Some of them look like they shouldn't be allowed to eat with a fork.

 

[lenny]

If we do not deal with the heart of people we only treat a symptom. Mental health is certainly a issue that needs to be looked at but many many people kill because others have something they want. I do not chalk up all the gang related, armed robbery to people with mental issues. I chalk up these killings to a morality issue, a consequence issue. We as a nation cannot and will not ever address the morality issue because we as a nation deliberately evolve as to what is right and wrong. The interpretation of "morality" is no longer a traditionally accepted ideal that the majority of Americans subscribe to. So, with morality being a loosely defined term, individuals develop a personal understanding that is constantly evolving.

Many behavioral issues that sincere parents failed to correct manifest themselves in children and play out in crazy ways as adults. Lazy parents often take the children to doctors because they themselves do not know how to distill morality in their children. Often a doc can provide help to children. Please do not think I am saying that all parents screw up if they have the kids on meds,,, no the case at all. Often children are drugged and the child becomes manageable ( and sometimes rightfully so.) Do we know the results of chemicals in a developing young mind? I personally know the results of chemicals in my own mind and it was not so good. I have seen some seriously poor parenting over the years and man do I ever cringe at it. A parent needs to force the strong willed child to submit to the parents authority or the unchecked behavior will be an issue of correction in some way.

Bottom line, some people do have legit mental issues and we can help them in some way but moreover the underlying issues in the grand scale of behavior is the sole responsibility of parents. What if the parents are screwed up, well,,,,,,than we have what we and are now experiencing,,,THE DECLINE OF MORALITY AND IT'S CONSEQUENCES.

I will practice Nash's statement, I've said all I need to say on this issue!

 

[dcsnomo]

Help me out here people for I am trying to understand the logic of things I am hearing lately. Immediately after the horrific event in CT I had started to hear a big discussion on gun violence,,,again. What actually is gun violence compared to knife violence, baseball-bat violence, brick violence, metal pipe violence, car violence, motorcycle violence, rope violence, hammer violence, shovel violence, pillow violence, decon violence,,etc,,,,,I mean really, I consider myself a reasonably minded individual but I cannot come to terms with the logic of blaming the item of choice to kill rather than the individual with their intent.

Sure, I can handle this one.
You need to look at the item you mentioned and its intended use. Can I kill you with a brick? Yes, but the intended use of a brick is to build a wall, and the overwhelming application of this item is building walls. Can I kill you with a hammer? Sure, but the intended use of this item is to pound nails, and the overwhelming application of this item is pounding nails. And so on and so forth through the entire list of items you mentioned. Their primary use is not killing, even though a misapplication of that item can result in death. Therefore, society feels no need to regulate these non-lethal items.

Can I kill you with a gun? Yes, just like a hammer or a brick, but the intended, designed and manufactured purpose of this product is to kill, and killing with a gun is a lot easier than a brick. Why? Because that is what it is designed to do, that is its intended use. When a brick is used as intended a wall is built. When a gun is used as intended something is dead. I cannot build a wall with a gun, I cannot pound a nail, I can only do one thing with it and that is kill something.

OK, so why does the government want to control guns rather than people? Simple...read the Second Amendment "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." So, the government has two choices. First is to control all/some of the people (control of the people). Hard to do since the second Amendment prohibits that. The second choice is to control some of the guns (control of the weapon) which is very different than control of the people. Weapons are NOT protected under the Second Amendment, peoples rights are what is protected. The weapon itself has no rights to be manufactured, sold, or distributed. So, the government can control the weapon up to the point of infringement, which is against the Second Amendment, and cannot control the individual, whose rights are guaranteed.

Now, before the ranting starts (leftie, pinko, commie, and don't forget elitist) let me be very clear that I support the Second Amendment and the right of people to own guns. I also support religious freedom, the right to assembly, the right of due process, and all the other rights the 27 Amendments give us. Along with that support I accept the consequences. The right of assembly means protesters might raise **** in Madison and damage the capitol. Freedom of religion means a mosque might be built in my neighborhood. The right of due process means that James Holmes (the Aurora Shooter) gets a fair and lengthy trial at considerable expense, even though we all know he did it.

But something is seriously wrong here. 20 children between the ages of 5 and 6 were slaughtered in their classroom. Children! Innocent, wide eyed 6 year olds waiting for Santa and Christmas were slaughtered. You should all be outraged. What if this was your community? What if this was your child?

I do not know the answer. But the mentality of everyone gets to own all the guns they want every where all the time simply is not working. Children are dying. People are getting killed in movie theaters and shopping malls. Innocent people with no involvement with the shooter are gunned down in everyday settings.

I beg all of you, before you slam me in your posts, understand the consequences of our decisions as a society...20 innocent children were slaughtered. This is not a consequence I can accept any longer, the line has been crossed.

Please be kind as you take me to task...

 

[snocrazy]

Oh boy. I wish I had the energy to really get in to this topic. I guarantee it would upset people. There are always going to be seperate views on this.
You can go back and forth for ever. People are entitled to their opinions. Even if we dont agree.

It is sad that this morons actions are going to make us reconsider our constitutional right. Punish millions for one bad apple. It makes no sense.
Think about the facts. The math - statistics behind all of this.

I understand people are very emotional about what happened. The polititions are taking advantage of peoples current state of mind to jam in more policies - laws. This is very typical for the current administration. It is not right.

I am soooo done with this topic. No more posts from me regarding this. I promise.

 

[slimcake]

dcsnomo, you sound like my sister. cries about the tragedy but offers not a single idea on the topic at hand. Illegal drugs are illegal. Do the users have any trouble finding them?? Criminals (or in this case whackjobs) obtain guns illegally. By banning them the only people without guns are the innocent law abiding people. Is this what you want?? I know its a terrible terrible act that most people couldn't even imagine but still, to ban guns when we have a people problem is not the answer.

 

[whitedust]

I have no problem with a law or laws banning sale of assault weapons. But what exactly will encompass an assault weapon? My 22 rifle with 7 shot clip, my pump action 12 gauge shot gun that comes with rifle barrel or my double action 44 mag pistol with scope all deadly guns that can rapid fire. Seems to me the only way to limit rapid fire is single shot bolt action firearms or black powder. All these killing monsters will do is go down the food chain on to the next level firearm. There is no way current gun owners will give up their guns & no law will be passed to ban sale of all firearms. To me schools are soft targets & someone in that school should have a firearm training to slowdown or kill anyone that is armed & shooting in a school. It is a difficult thing to do to pull the triger to end one's life but better than being lambs to the slaughter.

 

[900kingcat162]

I betchya in 20 years or so, the government will have a law that makes every person get a mind probe once a month. if you have had any violent thoughts you will be sent off to a mental institution for treatment. ya never know. all paid for by taxpayers.

 

[anonomoose]

Can I kill you with a gun? Yes, just like a hammer or a brick, but the intended, designed and manufactured purpose of this product is to kill, and killing with a gun is a lot easier than a brick.

...

DC I respect your opinion, and over time I have aligned myself with your thinking most of the time, but I have to say that the above statement is one of the exceptions.

A hammer was designed to pull nails as well as pound them in...and I occasionally use it to loosen a stubborn tire rim stuck on a hub. I have also used nail guns and even a rock to get the job done.

A Gun can kill and knives will do it very well too...BUT, a handgun was designed for shooting...a shotgun for clay targets as often as killing, and many rifles never see the light of day as they are collected by some as pocket watches.

Killing is one task it can do but it surely isn't the only thing it can do. A weapon is also a defensive tool which can deter a would be criminal from entering a house or store. Take a drive in the inner city and take note of the bars on the windows. Those homes become an armed camp at night out of necessity and where a door lock is not something that is "pretty" as it better be very functional first and last. Those who face death every day of their lives understand this clearly...and they know that the single biggest deterrent to being shot is to be armed and ready for anything.

So we must leave a single "intended purpose" out of this discussion.

Had a good security guard who does more than eat donuts and make jokes in the office been located in the right place at the right time in nearly EVERY SINGLE instance over the last 20 years, MOST of these deaths probably would have been prevented.

A pro-active stance can and will save lives. When we go to war we train to kill, we arm ourselves with the best available, yet we leave our schools a "gun free" zone for idiots to exploit. A few years ago, we used to be able to walk the grounds of the White House...now there are armed guards and fighter pilots ready to go at a moments notice....yet we leave our schools wide open for well planned attacks by those who will "show everyone...." Try and gain access to your local power company without raising lots of interest...cameras are watching your every step....you better be able to withstand a thorough background check and more....but we can walk into a church where the front doors are never locked! One broken window in a school should have brought immediate reaction just as if a bomb threat had been received. We are VULNERABLE!!

It makes no sense at all.

As a society we learn from our mistakes....as intelligent humans we have the ability to analyse and make corrections to our previous mistakes. If we do not, we are like gazelles with a pride of lions getting fatter by the day. Can we throw every person who keeps to himself in the nut house?? Can we go to the police and have someone arrested because he talks like he will kill everyone someday??

Prevention is key....protection is necessary...it is just the new way it is from now on. Once we walked thru an airport free as birds...but today we get toothpaste screened. It is not something I like but it is as necessary as a drivers license or social security number.

Once we see WHERE our vulnerabilities exist, we need to correct them. Not doing that simply means we will see it over and over and over again.

Don't blame the pitchfork for spearing your toe....and throw the pitchfork out....buy steel toe boots.

Make schools where children go each day the SAFEST place on the planet....it is just the new way to do things....after all, if those kids don't make it home each night...we have failed as a society, school district, guardian, and parent.

We did it wrong again...the real question is are we going to make changes to protect them...or are we going to blame the pitchfork...declare it unsafe, and throw it away?

We are about to find out!

 

[durphee]

sorry slimcake, dcsnomo did state that he supported the right to own guns - just to be fair. I don't think I read anything that talked about taking away guns, as a matter of fact no politician is going to take citizens right to bear arms (or be successful at it), but they WILL try to regulate it even more. Remember, I am a gun owner and I don't want mine taken away but im not afraid of tighter restrictions, since legal people will be allowed to have their gun also. Completely taking away guns is just a scare tactic and people freak out about it without full knowledge. We do not know what type of gun legislation will be introduced, i have read everything from nothing, trigger locks, to limiting clips to 10 rounds. We will just have to wait and see. For anyone on here who is adamant is their opinion, the best thing to do is contact your state and federal representatives, regardless of which opinion you have. I already have!

 

[slimcake]

Where did I say that he said otherwise?? I was simply asking him what he felt should be done. It was an awful long post to say nothing.....

 

[dcsnomo]

sorry slimcake, dcsnomo did state that he supported the right to own guns - just to be fair. I don't think I read anything that talked about taking away guns, as a matter of fact no politician is going to take citizens right to bear arms (or be successful at it), but they WILL try to regulate it even more. Remember, I am a gun owner and I don't want mine taken away but im not afraid of tighter restrictions, since legal people will be allowed to have their gun also. Completely taking away guns is just a scare tactic and people freak out about it without full knowledge. We do not know what type of gun legislation will be introduced, i have read everything from nothing, trigger locks, to limiting clips to 10 rounds. We will just have to wait and see. For anyone on here who is adamant is their opinion, the best thing to do is contact your state and federal representatives, regardless of which opinion you have. I already have!

Thank you!

 

[dcsnomo]

Where did I say that he said otherwise?? I was simply asking him what he felt should be done. It was an awful long post to say nothing.....

I don't know what should be done, but status quo isn't working. My gawd, they were children...not criminals, not burglars, rapists or vandals. Children!

 

[harvest1121]

Why not ban the video games they play and movies that are violent. Forgot who these 2 hollywood businesses donate heavily to.

 

[dcsnomo]

Moose-
All good points (except a gun is more lethal than a pillow!) Maybe I just feel a whole lot less safe. We defend against terrorists and Korean rockets and on and on but somehow a US citizen with full rights kills 20 children, shoots up a mall in Oregon, a theater in Aurora and it continues.
Along with our right to own a gun are our basic rights of freedom to exist as Americans. A line has been crossed here. These were innocent children in a bucolic New England town. These were OUR children in OUR town.

And no, Slimcake, I do not have a solution, but the status quo is not working.

 

[xsledder]

dcsnomo,

John Wayne Gacy, Jeffery Dahmer, Ted Kaczynski, Ted Bundy, Charles Manson, etc...also crossed the line. What you have is pure evil and unfortunitely this evil took 20 children. If we want to get Draconian with our reaction to this tragedy, maybe we should go back to punishments whereby we cutoff the perpetrators hands or legs or arms or head instead of blaming inanimate objects. Maybe you should step away from this thread for a few days (just a suggestion based on the way you are typing your replies).

PS - This post is not an argument to you posts in anyway.

 

[russholio]

And let's not forget Timothy McVeigh or the 911 perps, all of whom used no firearms in the commission of their acts. Evil is evil -- the method used to carry out the act is just the symptom of a much larger cause.