gun violence

Admin

Administrator
Staff member
Not really trying to argue one way or the other, but just some more info to chew on: Wasn't there one of these mass shootings at an ARMY BASE?

-John
 

m8man

Moderator
God bless all those little kids. I can only imagine the horror going through their innocent minds at the time. My two boys are 5 and 10,the approximate age range of the decedents. I'm wondering if some of the issues are when the mom tried to keep her home life almost a secret? Trying to hide probs instead of help. She was a poor victim of this crazy deal too.

One thing to note is that you can't plan for random events. This is unexplained and and sad. I'm not sure logic will work here.

I can see JD's point about the army base. You can't plan for the unexpected. I'm guessing as the population grows so will the complexity of the crimes.

lets not forget all those precious kids, and the adults who died trying to protect them.

May they rest in peace,

m8man
 

xcsp01

New member
I find it funny that our president only is addressing this and aiming at the mass shorting event as of late, meanwhile in his hometown, what 10-12 or more are killed in acts of violence ranging for guns to gang related beating ect a night!!, but not a word is said about that...

We need to seriously do something with our prison system! Its a place that no longer viewed as a place you don't want to end up in. Shelter, food, heat maybe even ac, gyms, education, free time!! And what not. Doesn't sound bad. **** maybe if I ever get caught in a tough spot I'll just go commit a crime and sit good for awhile...

What happened to be a free labor!? Or **** just go make them dig holes and cover em up, don't make te time in their enjoyable or pleasant. Jail? Sounds more like vacation to me
 

MZEMS2

New member
I don't have the answer either, but I can say with a lot of confidence, that if someone wants to carry out one of these acts, and don't already have a gun or weapon of choice....this country makes it pretty easy to get a hold of anything. The point was made earlier that being a "developed" country makes everything accessable to everyone. Even this little 1000 person village I'm from has some true "winners" in it. If I wanted to get my hands on something, I could simply ask. It might take a couple others to ask others, but it can be done. The CT incident was carried out by a kid who shot guns with his mom a lot. He was mentally ill, yet guns were accessable to him 24/7. Mom spent her life caring for this kid, only to have him shoot her. It's not the gun's fault here. Mom should have locked up the guns, or better yet, not had them at home to start with. But again, he could have gotten a hold of them anyway. I agree with tougher punishment. Prison these days is nothing less than a vacation without the expense. These criminals aren't held accountable, they're simply removed from general population to live with more criminals. I'm a firm believer in executing murderers and other violent offenders when we know they're guilty. These people will never contribute anything positive to society..yet, we're expected to keep them comfy and cozy in prison....
 

anonomoose

New member
All of this is true, but there is a substantial body of research that shows that in developed nations, more guns = more homicide. This is also usually true with or without the US to "skew" the data set.

Harvard School of Public Health

Ah ...the proof! Did any of these studies use proper controls in their analysis? It is nearly impossible to do this study without adding a whole bunch of salt to the mix.

For example, in Detroit, it is estimated that nearly 1/2 of the guns (primarily hand guns) are NOT registered...to the households that the gun resides. Uncle Joe got it for me type of purchases. When you send out a survey, the LAST thing anyone is going to admit to is having in their possession a weapon they do not own but possess. Illegal handguns, which are stolen, unregistered and resold to the highest bidder will skew the HARVARD study to death. If you use the HARVARD analysis and double firearm ownership...perhaps it would find DETROIT as one of the safest places to live and below average for homicides! We know that is not the case...we know that 30% or more do not have a steady job or no job at all, and more alcoholics per square mile than anywhere in California save for perhaps LA.... How does one remove this from the equation???

I believe I read somewhere not long ago, that 80% of homicides are committed by people who have some acquaintance to the perpetrator. Random crime compared to husband offing his cheatin wife type of crime. This latest falls into BOTH categories.

Correlations as such can scarcely provide a decent control to measure the results. Anyone who has a scientific degree knows without that, the results are pure speculation. On smaller scales where communities encourage firearm ownership, quite the opposite is the result.


What I do believe is that folks who are 4th generation out of "firearm" ownership are far more inclined to find little value in owning a weapon to protect themselves, or obviously how much fun it is to go plinking with a 22 caliber rifle which btw holds up to 16 shots without reloading. Assault weapon?? Killing machine??

Please understand that you can kill with a nail gun, or fertilizer and fuel oil.....best to understand WHY this is done, not HOW it is done. And prevention is worth a pound of cure.
 

whitedust

Well-known member
I don't have the answer either, but I can say with a lot of confidence, that if someone wants to carry out one of these acts, and don't already have a gun or weapon of choice....this country makes it pretty easy to get a hold of anything. The point was made earlier that being a "developed" country makes everything accessable to everyone. Even this little 1000 person village I'm from has some true "winners" in it. If I wanted to get my hands on something, I could simply ask. It might take a couple others to ask others, but it can be done. The CT incident was carried out by a kid who shot guns with his mom a lot. He was mentally ill, yet guns were accessable to him 24/7. Mom spent her life caring for this kid, only to have him shoot her. It's not the gun's fault here. Mom should have locked up the guns, or better yet, not had them at home to start with. But again, he could have gotten a hold of them anyway. I agree with tougher punishment. Prison these days is nothing less than a vacation without the expense. These criminals aren't held accountable, they're simply removed from general population to live with more criminals. I'm a firm believer in executing murderers and other violent offenders when we know they're guilty. These people will never contribute anything positive to society..yet, we're expected to keep them comfy and cozy in prison....

The death penalty is a state law. Take it up with your state governor if you want change in death penalty. Remember all those movies where the convicted wait word of a pardon from the governor that never comes?
 

homan

Member
Please all google "Bath School Killings" and you will see that in the 1920's some other Wacko right here in Michigan blew up a school with explosives and killed 38 kids plus others. It is easy to blame guns but in reality if some Wacko wants to harm people they will find a way to do it regardless of whether guns are available or not. Today society seems the need to find something to blame for all problems when in reality sometimes the actions of a few can never be predicted. It is impossible for sane people to predict the actions of the insane.
 

uncle_ed

Active member
In the face of such a traumatic and devastating shooting such as this and others it seems that many people have a knee jerk reaction to fault guns and seek limitations or bans for their use. It is a way to come up with an easy solution for a far more complex problem than that. Heck, if making some guns illegal would get them off the streets than they should outlaw heroine and meth than too..........

I think we will have to work together as a society and make changes in many areas that will deal with the real problems at hand like mental health, security in schools and places we gather in masses, and just plain responsibility for our actions and safety of our loved ones. When my kids got old enough to walk I purchased a safe for my guns so they or their friends did not have unsupervised access to them as they grew up. I also did not want them in the hands of a criminal.

I think we will have to see some changes or it will just continue to get worse. This type of problem is not going away unless we do something!
 
L

lenny

Guest
looks like I am going back on my word and am up for another post or ten. This thread IMO has been a very good vehicle to offer opinions. I believe there are many things we can do to try an prevent this sort of thing but I will say that we will never eliminate the problem. This is a recent event and we become knee jerk, than we loose focus and nothing happens.

Here are a few suggestions, how about a national exercise of gun owners securing their weapons in the home to try an prevent kids from attaining the weapons. Also a strong lesson on how to store amo in a secure box. Possibly require new gun owner to take a test on gun storage and amo storage. This practice may account for preventing a % of fatalities and lessining that % is a good thing. We offer atv, snowmobile, auto and cycle safety classes so how about requiring education on the subject and no possession till the requirement is passed. Again this will only prevent a percentage but it's a way to help. How about requiring parents with special needs or mental health children to be required to do the same education classes. We can do much better with a broad awareness of the potential disaster. Many gun and amo cases now are indestructible so how about a requirement to own the proper storage unit to prevent irresponsibility usage of the weapon. It will cost us something but it is something most of us can do and life is worth it.

We have a system in place for a legal limit of alcohol in the blood while driving a motor vehicle and yet we have so many people being killed by drunk drivers. My point is that it is impossible to stop irresponsible behavior but we can place restrictions on high incidents of death to decrease the numbers but first we need to admit that we cannot control these things. We have good intentions but totally unrealistic to look at the gun itself as the problem.

We can increase the punishment for people that commit crimes with guns like myself and others have stated.

We can strongly promote our volunteer programs for responsible adults to invest, talk and educate children who seem to strugle in life (big brother, big sister program and others.)

We can support our local churches by attending services and taking our children to listen with the hope of instilling strong morality. My son married less than a year ago and both he and his wife were virgins while committing their lives together at the alter. Trust me, self control is a learned behavior and we all can accomplish great things while preventing bad things from happening.

We can all unit as liberals, conservatives, republican, democrat, religious or atheists. WE ARE AMERICANS AND WE OUGHT TO REGAIN THE HIGHEST LEVEL OF CIVILITY AND RESPECT. We can be a beacon of light for the world. Right now we are divided strong and it shows in our respect for each other. Each one of us can sincerely practice respect for each other right here on this board and make it the best web site on the net because of mutual respect, God knows I need to do better.

Last thought, we can live each day as it is our last and practice a strong relationship with friend and family. Make huge allowances for each other without sacrificing principle, example: not requiring a friend to act or perform in a relationship of a unrealistic expectation. My sister can be the single most annoying person in the entire world and in our family she can be tolerated but I recently have been practicing unconditional love and she has responded well. She is not as annoying and we are all getting along better. Each of us have a responsibility to examine ourselves and make corrections. Never believe you are above reproach. Let's start with our concern for our neighbor and you will be amazed how you can help and maybe you'll receive a blessing that will set your sails soaring.
 

Skylar

Super Moderator
Staff member
How would I feel if it happened to my child DC says. Well, I would be devasted of course, but, I WOULD NOT blame the type of gun, or the fact that it was a gun! I would blame the person who did it! Plain and simple, I would ask, what made this person do this? A gun did not make him do it, did it? The gun was the device used, and that is all.

This person could have just as easily waited until there was a bunch of kids outside at recess, and then drove his car right into them, backed up, and did it again, over and over. Would you then say you wanted that type of car banned, never to be sold again? Or would you want to know what posessed him to do it?
 

sifarmer

New member
what I dont understand is the people screaming about guns dont care if their kid plays halo, or modern warfare for 8 hours a day. I would think those games encourage violent behavior way more than an adult teaching a youth how to use and handle a firearm properly.
 

Woodtic

Active member
Thank you Lenny,for starting this post. There are a lot of educated members getting their thoughts and feelings off their chest! You mention irresponsible gun owners? Are these the same people that get on this web sight and complain they got a ticket for not stopping at a stop sign? I tell my kids that are driving now, I never got a ticket I didn't deserve. I try to teach my kids this thing called accountability . It's not something anyone seems to have anymore !
 

88skier

New member
Ah ...the proof! Did any of these studies use proper controls in their analysis? It is nearly impossible to do this study without adding a whole bunch of salt to the mix.

For example, in Detroit, it is estimated that nearly 1/2 of the guns (primarily hand guns) are NOT registered...to the households that the gun resides. Uncle Joe got it for me type of purchases. When you send out a survey, the LAST thing anyone is going to admit to is having in their possession a weapon they do not own but possess. Illegal handguns, which are stolen, unregistered and resold to the highest bidder will skew the HARVARD study to death. If you use the HARVARD analysis and double firearm ownership...perhaps it would find DETROIT as one of the safest places to live and below average for homicides! We know that is not the case...we know that 30% or more do not have a steady job or no job at all, and more alcoholics per square mile than anywhere in California save for perhaps LA.... How does one remove this from the equation???

I believe I read somewhere not long ago, that 80% of homicides are committed by people who have some acquaintance to the perpetrator. Random crime compared to husband offing his cheatin wife type of crime. This latest falls into BOTH categories.

Correlations as such can scarcely provide a decent control to measure the results. Anyone who has a scientific degree knows without that, the results are pure speculation. On smaller scales where communities encourage firearm ownership, quite the opposite is the result.


What I do believe is that folks who are 4th generation out of "firearm" ownership are far more inclined to find little value in owning a weapon to protect themselves, or obviously how much fun it is to go plinking with a 22 caliber rifle which btw holds up to 16 shots without reloading. Assault weapon?? Killing machine??

Please understand that you can kill with a nail gun, or fertilizer and fuel oil.....best to understand WHY this is done, not HOW it is done. And prevention is worth a pound of cure.


Yes. These studies (plural) are part of the peer-reviewed scientific literature. While this does not provide an absolute guarantee of veracity, it is as close as we can get to one. Also note that while the link is to a Harvard site, the citation references a literature review. Reviews are comprehensive overviews of studies from a wide variety of peer-reviewed publications that are not from one institution.

I agree with you that prevention is preferable to dealing with the result, but it is quite clear that the availability of guns in this country is at least partially to blame for the quantity of firearm homicides.

I provided data to substantiate my claims and back up my opinion. This discussion could be greatly improved if others did the same (and not from memory or Wikipedia). I am by no means implying that there isn't data to support the "other side."
 

dj2muchjunk

New member
There is no doubt in my mind that this horrific event made Americans shed the most tears at one time than ever before. Saddly there is no easy remedy. We will never eliminate all the guns,knives,and poisons that humans use to kill. The thought that we can identify the mentally ill before they kill is I think an impoosible task. The anti gun people won't like this answer which is to have a trained person, teacher or custodian, whatever on site armed and ready to protect may be as good as we can do.Thanks and God bless our future.
 

eagle1

Well-known member
First off I would like to thank John for letting this thread continue. I'm sure he cringed when he saw the title. It's definitely time for us (Americans) all to pull our head out of the sand and figure out a solution, even if its on a snowmobile site. ha,ha So thanks John.

Some really great posts so far. Only wish rest of America felt the same. Lenny, couldn't agree more with your posts.
 

polarisrider1

New member
I am just jumping in now, I think it is the desensitising (SIC) by video games and TV programs that lead the "Off kiltered" into thinking killing is normal.
 

polarisrider1

New member
I don't have the answer either, but I can say with a lot of confidence, that if someone wants to carry out one of these acts, and don't already have a gun or weapon of choice....this country makes it pretty easy to get a hold of anything. The point was made earlier that being a "developed" country makes everything accessable to everyone. Even this little 1000 person village I'm from has some true "winners" in it. If I wanted to get my hands on something, I could simply ask. It might take a couple others to ask others, but it can be done. The CT incident was carried out by a kid who shot guns with his mom a lot. He was mentally ill, yet guns were accessable to him 24/7. Mom spent her life caring for this kid, only to have him shoot her. It's not the gun's fault here. Mom should have locked up the guns, or better yet, not had them at home to start with. But again, he could have gotten a hold of them anyway. I agree with tougher punishment. Prison these days is nothing less than a vacation without the expense. These criminals aren't held accountable, they're simply removed from general population to live with more criminals. I'm a firm believer in executing murderers and other violent offenders when we know they're guilty. These people will never contribute anything positive to society..yet, we're expected to keep them comfy and cozy in prison....

thank you. as true as it gets.
 
L

lenny

Guest
Yes. These studies (plural) are part of the peer-reviewed scientific literature. While this does not provide an absolute guarantee of veracity, it is as close as we can get to one. Also note that while the link is to a Harvard site, the citation references a literature review. Reviews are comprehensive overviews of studies from a wide variety of peer-reviewed publications that are not from one institution.

I agree with you that prevention is preferable to dealing with the result, but it is quite clear that the availability of guns in this country is at least partially to blame for the quantity of firearm homicides.

I provided data to substantiate my claims and back up my opinion. This discussion could be greatly improved if others did the same (and not from memory or Wikipedia). I am by no means implying that there isn't data to support the "other side."


a quick response to this statement. While I will agree that when a heinous action is being thought out, the ease in which it can be carried out can be linked to the availability of guns but do you really want to invest in a response without an action than could directly impact the root cause? I agree we can and should address this in numerous way but Unless you remove every gun from society you are going to have this sort of crisis. To the extent that which your statement will yield results, I will assume you are implying gun control, at best is negligible,,, IMO,, nothing to back it up but just old reasoning on my part. Claiming data is necessary to address a behavioral problem is a stretch but at the same time it is how our evolving society operates, which I have a problem with.

I tend to believe think that statuesque of university thinkers will just be another establishment, politicized quagmire of a mess adding to the effect of a snowball rolling down the hill contributing to the clouded complexity of a simple matter.

Responsible gun ownership will yield the single most dividends to this problem. I mean we have big a** safes to lock up valuables that thieves cannot steal but
yet often dangerous weapons sit in a extravagant case on display for any clown to nab. I am not implying this was the case in CT but across the nation in general it is the case. If a gun can kill than go to extremes to keep that weapon where it belongs and that is out of the hands of potential nut jobs.
 
Last edited:

Woodtic

Active member
Forgive me it this has already been brought up. Wasn't there a nut job up in a clock tower,30 or40years ago. This would have been befor video games and bad bad movies. I don't think he had an assault gun either. Do victims care how they are killed?
 
Top