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lenny
Guest
bravo!
Here's the New 2017 Ski Doo's
- Thread starter gary_in_neenah
- Start date
I love all the speculation...but honestly some of you continue to spread false information...you can tell who loves/dislikes 4 strokes...it's not hard..lol....it's the same old "weight" issue for some of you. And that's fine...if you ride powder or ditch bang, a lighter sled is better for you, and your style of riding....but if the dry weights I have seen are correct ..around 560 LBS dry for the sidewinder LTX.....That's damn light for a 3 cylinder 4 stroke with turbo hardware...nearly 40 lbs lighter than my apex....AND...those of you talking about ride and handling...so far the reviews have been very good...Cat/Yamaha have worked hard to get better ride compliance, and handling out of both the viper line, and the new sidewinder. I can't wait to try one...the guys I talked to who have...said they ride far better than the current apex line, and really don't feel heavy....say what you will about Yamaha...but this mutual agreement between them and cat has been very GOOD for both companies. Yamaha has always built excellent engines...if anything this sidewinder engine is over engineered....and for the record this engine was designed for Cat...they asked for it....I see a lot of negativity and false info being spread about a prototype (the sidewinder/thundercat).
As for ski-doo...I totally expected them to release a mach z turbo this year I was surprised they didn't....though after reading reviews of their 850, and comments from the ski doo staff...it seems they don't want to do that as they feel it would effect their etec sales. I am not a fan of the 1200...it's a nice riding machine with excellent features and accessories, but the motor feels flat to me (I have ridden a 2015 GSX, and a 2016 1200 enduro)..it's not fun like and apex or even a viper motor...while the viper falls on it's face at 90 ...it's more lively than the 1200 motor through the mid range...to tell somebody who rides an apex that they'd be happy with it is silly....it's not close.
Snobuilder....you are kinda reaching on the clutch stuff aren't ya?? I had 14,400 miles on my attak when I sold it, and had NO grooves in the sheaves...my other attak had 10,000 plus miles...no grooves....I have heard of it happening...but haven't seen it with my own eyes on any of my riding buddy's apexes.
Like I said... I find ski-doo's claim of "4 stroke reliability in a two stroke" interesting...we will see if it's true or not...time will tell...I wonder if they cranked the oil consumption up with this motor??...many times ski-doo has claimed extraordinary fuel mileage, and oil consumption...and it's been proven false....it seems the yellow pom-pom crew believes everything they read....lol
Ride what you like people...nothing you say here will change my mind about what I like/want...and I am sure nothing I say will influence you.
I know one thing...there really isn't a bad sled out there...doesn't matter what color your underwear is....pick one...and RIDE IT!!
As for ski-doo...I totally expected them to release a mach z turbo this year I was surprised they didn't....though after reading reviews of their 850, and comments from the ski doo staff...it seems they don't want to do that as they feel it would effect their etec sales. I am not a fan of the 1200...it's a nice riding machine with excellent features and accessories, but the motor feels flat to me (I have ridden a 2015 GSX, and a 2016 1200 enduro)..it's not fun like and apex or even a viper motor...while the viper falls on it's face at 90 ...it's more lively than the 1200 motor through the mid range...to tell somebody who rides an apex that they'd be happy with it is silly....it's not close.
Snobuilder....you are kinda reaching on the clutch stuff aren't ya?? I had 14,400 miles on my attak when I sold it, and had NO grooves in the sheaves...my other attak had 10,000 plus miles...no grooves....I have heard of it happening...but haven't seen it with my own eyes on any of my riding buddy's apexes.
Like I said... I find ski-doo's claim of "4 stroke reliability in a two stroke" interesting...we will see if it's true or not...time will tell...I wonder if they cranked the oil consumption up with this motor??...many times ski-doo has claimed extraordinary fuel mileage, and oil consumption...and it's been proven false....it seems the yellow pom-pom crew believes everything they read....lol
Ride what you like people...nothing you say here will change my mind about what I like/want...and I am sure nothing I say will influence you.
I know one thing...there really isn't a bad sled out there...doesn't matter what color your underwear is....pick one...and RIDE IT!!
momoney2123
New member
Light is right in my book. Yamaha rep said sidewinder is 40ish lbs heavier than viper. Wonder if there is a reason cat/yamaha arent officially mentioning any weights. all speculation?
Stock 1200's have had some issues with stock primary springs. If they get sacked the sled will not perform. easy fix. the sled in the RIGHT hands is a big over acheiver.
Stock 1200's have had some issues with stock primary springs. If they get sacked the sled will not perform. easy fix. the sled in the RIGHT hands is a big over acheiver.
groomerdriver
New member
But few are called out on it and it's an accepted thing here.
Like I said..it's a nice comfortable machine....but you wave the pom poms too much...lol ...In the right hands ANY sled even my Apex can be a monster...I'll leave it stock...it's fast enough...the 1200 motor doesn't impress me...and IMO I don't think very many apex guys would like the motor....Don't take it personal...I don't care for the Viper either...it's got good mid range, but after riding an apex it felt slow too...both the 1200, and viper are very good trail sleds, the ride and handling is better than my apex (especially the 2016's)...I will admit that.....but I love that 4 cylinder, it's addictive, and puts a grin on my face everytime I nail it...if and when I decide I don't want or need that much power..I will consider a Viper, and next on my list would be the 1200. IMO 4 strokes are an after thought to ski-doo...they could make that 1200 sing with a few changes (triple throttle bodies, better clutching)..then it may well be an apex equal. We know ski-doo makes an excellent chassis, and they ride and handle well...plus the accessories, and options are genius (and I hope the other three follow suit with that)..but to me their 4 strokes are flat, and just not as much fun....IMO if you love ski-doo...the etec is the way to go.
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Yep...and I'm sure I will get roasted for saying that...lol
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BTW...both of the 1200s had under 1000 miles miles on them...they should have been broken in...but I'd hope to heck the springs wouldn't be shot already (sacked as u said)...I'd be royally pissed if I owned one, and had to replace the stock springs at 1,000 miles or less
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Cirrus_Driver
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Of course you have....lol The weights I found on the viper ranged from 518 to 525lbs....and the Vector was 590 lbs...not 570...apex was 10 lbs more. (depending on track length).
Ya we get it yamaha's are heavy, and not for you....the ski-doo 4 strokes are slow and flat, and not for me...I think I spelled that out pretty clearly.
misty_pines
Member
I saw that. More reason that Doo, or any other sled manufacturer, should try put out a nice light weight 4 stroke turbo so it doesn't lose power at elevation! I would love even 150 hp (or more) at 9,000 feet without too much of a weight penalty. My 800 etec is probably only making around 115 to 120 hp at around 9,000 feet. The wait continues...
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Cirrus_Driver
Guest
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momoney2123
New member
2016s 1200s had a recall on primary springs. Some were weak from the get go.
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Cirrus_Driver
Guest
Last comment, the complaint is spreading false information, but everyone has their version of facts. Back in 07-09 when Yam still published weights, I bought 2 575 pound Vectors and a 595 pound Apex - per the dealer. I can most certainly feel the difference when moving a Pro-R or S around by hand vs. the Yam's, not to mention the shock and suspension packages - no comparison. If you have any other questions, always here to help!
I don't have any questions...lol I know what I like and what I'm buying....the weight is not an issue for me...I was simply pointing out to those who want to harp on weight, that the sidewinder is lighter than the apex, and is reported to be an excellent riding good handling sled...we really won't know until customers get their hands on it...just like we won't know how reliable the 850 is (four stroke reliable according to ski-doo)...until they have been on snow for a few seasons...I hope they are reliable for my ski-doo friends...if not...I will happily tow them them with my "fat pig" of a sled...just like I have for many years now......good thing they are so light...makes em easier to tow...lol
snobuilder
Well-known member
Attackman.
Between my riding bud and our 2 better halves and 8 different versions of the yamaha 4 strokes since 2005/6 all needed clutch refacing at around 10,000 miles. No false info here. Maybe we'd be better off with a belt softer than the 8DN.
I agree that as sledders we are livin' mighty high with all of the excellent new iron hitting the snow these past few years and the Apex is a sled like no other.
Between my riding bud and our 2 better halves and 8 different versions of the yamaha 4 strokes since 2005/6 all needed clutch refacing at around 10,000 miles. No false info here. Maybe we'd be better off with a belt softer than the 8DN.
I agree that as sledders we are livin' mighty high with all of the excellent new iron hitting the snow these past few years and the Apex is a sled like no other.
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The 8 DN is the most durable belt in the industry, and you can't really complain about the price compared to others belts....get a softer belt, and maybe you save a few clutch sheaves (probably blow more belts though)..dunno??....Again...I haven't seen the sheave problem...so naturally I'm skeptical...wouldn't you say that's normal for most sledders??
2s are lighter than 4s & some 4s are lighter than other 4s the same with 2s....lol...The OEMs any marketed sled weight is not what some independent source states when they publish weights thru a sled Mag. Then of course there is dry weight & wet weight so many waivers it makes my head spin...lol. Demo ride a sled if too heavy for ya in test ride it is not going to get better look at something else. Lots of talk on TY about patent for carbon fiber composite sled from Yamaha. Will it happen?.... time will tell. What we do know is 4s engines weigh more than 2s so no news to me 4s sleds weigh more than 2s always have.... always will. If a buying decision is made regarding dead bench press weight then ok with me buy the sled you can manage to horse around your garage...My preference is how the sled handles on long big mile day trips for 8-12 hours & bench lift on any day should not exceed more than 1 or 2 minutes....big deal...don't care. I know 3 Yamaha Apex riders that use dollies on every ride & I have seen them move their sleds no fuss ...no grunting put dollies on front skis & drive & park. Why lift any sled?.... much better ways than bench press. If stuck in deep snow good luck they all suck to dig out and again better to know easiest way to free from trench than brut strength. To each his own... if dead weight is important to ya don't consider a 4s never going to be lighter than 2s.
This is a ski-doo thread (and I have no intentions of hy jacking it)..yet once again the yamabashers have to say something..it seems like if Yamaha comes out with anything...the ski-doo crowd is salivating to trash it...sorry the sidewinder stole the 850's thunder in less than a week..... I am interested to see how the 850 stacks up...and like whitedust and I have both posted...if ski-doo made a four stroke with apex power or more...I know I would definitely give it a good look, and a fair shake... the 1200 just isn't a good comparison to an apex..sorry IMO..it's lacking.
And that's not just my opinion.. many ski-doo riders do want a bigger 4 stroke....believe it or not..ski-doo does have a loyal 4 stroke following...They could easily appease those riders with a Mach Z turbo, or tweeks to their current 1200...and it might interest other brand 4 stroke riders...that is all I am saying...right now there is very little reason for an apex rider, or high performance 4 stroke rider to switch to ski-doo.
And BTW....those of you who wanted a lighter, faster, better handling, better riding apex...you got it...the Sidewinder/Thundercat.
To me next season is going to be real interesting..this year is just setting us up for 2018 ..Will ski-doo bring a big gun 4 stroke?? Will Yamaha have their own models from japan?? I guess we will see.
And that's not just my opinion.. many ski-doo riders do want a bigger 4 stroke....believe it or not..ski-doo does have a loyal 4 stroke following...They could easily appease those riders with a Mach Z turbo, or tweeks to their current 1200...and it might interest other brand 4 stroke riders...that is all I am saying...right now there is very little reason for an apex rider, or high performance 4 stroke rider to switch to ski-doo.
And BTW....those of you who wanted a lighter, faster, better handling, better riding apex...you got it...the Sidewinder/Thundercat.
To me next season is going to be real interesting..this year is just setting us up for 2018 ..Will ski-doo bring a big gun 4 stroke?? Will Yamaha have their own models from japan?? I guess we will see.
momoney2123
New member
Dont remember anyone bashing the Yamaha.
Skidoo has probably the lightest 4 strokes out, and i can tell i rode a day on one of them over 2 stroke especially when the trails arent like glass.
If doo comes with a big gun i have a feeling it wont be what everyone thinks. They have 3 big gun engines being tested. Ones that will keep the mach Z name with the correct # of strokes.
Attakman what are you reading?
No ones bashing your Yamaha brand.
Haven't read anything about bashing. Who bashed?
Little sensitive or just think skinned or both?
Sheesh.... people there are more important things to life.
No ones bashing your Yamaha brand.
Haven't read anything about bashing. Who bashed?
Little sensitive or just think skinned or both?
Sheesh.... people there are more important things to life.
Timo... if you call getting tired of people making snide remarks, is being "thin skinned" or "sensitive"...then I guess I am...but hey thanks for pointing it out....Do you feel better now??
The SD 850 and Yami SW are very, very different from one another. One is N/A 2 stroke, the other a turbo 4 stroke. I'm sure that SD, and Yami/Cat brought forth what each feels will benefit their market best. Such as $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$? Both are available in many different configurations to our choice. I really enjoy the discussion, but to each his own. I prefer a light weight, well balanced/ handling sled. Others want max power, and speed. To them the weight is a non issue. So where do we go now????????? And, the only thing I enjoy more than riding, is my grand daughter!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Hows that!