Where do we send a email or letter? This is crazy......I always tell my Daughters to watch the signs & More than half your dangers will be missed!!! Many times snow or snow dust makes things hard to see & signs could save your life or the person you're going to hit in the middle of a corner head on & their life! Many of us have been riding for many, many miles, but what would your wife, girlfriend or kids of do without signs in many of the bad corners or hills? DNR tells you they are out there on the trails watching for our safety, writing tickets for any reason they can think of that day, but its for our safety...... What about the real things that can save a life...SIGNS
Michigan removing turn ahead signs
- Thread starter mjkaliszak
- Start date
Budget move. The signs are already there. Idiots plain and simple.
Theres also a post above about the dnr saying the arguments are redundant. Of course they are. That is the dnr simply saying; "We don't care about what anyone else thinks or says, we're going to do what we want to do."
Pompous jerks!
mrsrunningbear
Active member
I have just spoke with someone who will bring some insite about this topic, not sure which thread he will post on but he will and it will be interesting to all
I just emailed a generic address on their website last night. Their site is also very hard to navigate and it's missing loads of information.
polarisrider1
New member
It is totally dumb to do this. Ricky Racer is not going to slow down. Grandma and Grandpa will. Guess since they will be going slower and more cautious the crashes will be less deadly for Grandma, But Ricky racer will blow more curves and deaths for them will go up. Back in my Ricky Racer days I heavily relied on the curve ahead signage so I could set up for taking the curve as fast as possible, so I can see the DNR's theory on this, but we are talking "real life" situation and the boys will not slow down.
As far as Canada speed limit of 35mph. I have never seen it enforced out of town. Areas in southern Ontario such as Elliiot Lake, Thessolon, St. Joseph Island , the Soo were traffic is far more congested I have seen some watching by the Mounties but they are mainly sticker checking as our DNR & sheriff does.
As far as Canada speed limit of 35mph. I have never seen it enforced out of town. Areas in southern Ontario such as Elliiot Lake, Thessolon, St. Joseph Island , the Soo were traffic is far more congested I have seen some watching by the Mounties but they are mainly sticker checking as our DNR & sheriff does.
EXCESSIVE FORCE
New member
Dumb idea.....What's next stop ahead signs?
mrsrunningbear
Active member
Join MSA or a Michigan snowmobile club and get involved pay attention to whats going on up here, thats how you all can help with these issues we need people in numbers to make changes...just sayin'
polarisrider1
New member
Very true!
Lets examine why they are planning to remove the corner marker signs. Plain and simple. Just like many of you have stated, they give you a sense of security and 'tell' you how fast you can go through a corner. So in essence, you are out driving your line of sight. Much like driving very fast at night, you cannot see through the approaching corner. Yet, the sign says you can skip through at an easy 40 mph. The sign must be an all knowing power. Ya, that is it. The sign knows what your driving ability on a sled is, the sign knows there is a clear path, the sign also knows the present conditions of the trail.
So, why remove the markers? To get rid of the false sense of security they provide and to cut back on accidents resulting in death. Speed, Speed, Speed.
Short of making and enforcing speed policies on the trails, this solution ensures that people rely on their own knowledge and driving ability when riding, not signage.
IMO it makes sense. Ride out west and rip around the trails once. You will never rely on those little arrows again.
MI accidents in 2009-10 http://www.michigan.gov/documents/Dec1603_80602_7.pdf
MI accidents in 2010-11 http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dnr/SnowmobileFatals2010-2011_343301_7.pdf
So, why remove the markers? To get rid of the false sense of security they provide and to cut back on accidents resulting in death. Speed, Speed, Speed.
Short of making and enforcing speed policies on the trails, this solution ensures that people rely on their own knowledge and driving ability when riding, not signage.
IMO it makes sense. Ride out west and rip around the trails once. You will never rely on those little arrows again.
MI accidents in 2009-10 http://www.michigan.gov/documents/Dec1603_80602_7.pdf
MI accidents in 2010-11 http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dnr/SnowmobileFatals2010-2011_343301_7.pdf
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Agree with you completely, this is where education of the 5% needs to occur, and unfortunately in most of those cases, sign or no sign, it takes an "incident" to teach them common sense.
Only time or times I have gone into picker brush is when trail cuts back at 90 degress & no signage. Just Holy $hit moments & lock the brakes. When I look around & there are more tracks it tells me other riders have done the same thing. Always happens 1 or 2x a season & no damage to sled or me. I like signs & use signs to keep me on the trail. If you come into a 90 & no sign you will be in the pickers too.
I must admit, it has been a little entertaining (and I do not mean that in a sarcastic way) to read the posts come in. I can certainly empathize with the thoughts and even emotions on this issue. When I first got word of this idea two years ago at a trails services meeting, I felt exactly the same way. How could they be SO STUPID?! But then it was explained to me their reasoning and I listened. I still thought it was stupid and would lead to more accidents and not less, but then over time, I started to see and understand the logic and I have come 180 degrees from my original thinking. I now believe it will be MUCH safer in the long run.
Mr. Mom put it best that folks rely way too much on the signs and that fact has been proven with all the arguments on this discussion by folks wanting to keep them. They make us feel safer. Sure they make sense when they are there to mark a curve, but as was pointed out, how does the sign know what is the safe speed for you to negotiate that curve? Every rider is different and has different abilities.
More importantly, what if just one sign is missing? Then what will all of you that rely on the signs for safety do? You will likely go where you are not wanting to, because you depended on the sign and not your abilities. That is what most riders these days have become- relying on completely on signage and not common sense.
I will admit that years ago, I had a few close calls on the trails because I was going too fast and relied on the signs too much. I can also tell you this, I have NEVER blown a curve or had any kind of a close call while riding the backcountry. It is not signed at all, why have I not gone recklessly into the woods and killed myself on a maple tree while riding the backcountry that has no signs what so ever? Because when I ride the back country, I rely 100% on my own abilities and common sense. I ride the speed that is safe for me, not what some sign says is safe for me.
This is the logic that the DNR is using and I believe that many of you will change your mind the more you think about it. It will not be a perfect scenario, there will still be idiots that go too fast or drink too much and have accidents, but I can say that along with myself never blowing a curve or having a close call in the backcoutry, I have never been with anyone or even heard of anyone boondocking and having that occur.
We all like to have that element of thrill while riding, but none of us want to die while out there and we all will slow down if the turn signs are removed from the system. Some may not slow down enough, but I am willing to bet 98-99% of the riders will slow down to a speed that is safe for the trails without the signs. I guess you can call the other 1-2% natural selection.
So the bottom line for me is, if you NEED a sign to tell you how fast to ride, you are riding beyond you abilities. Hard to argue with that.
I would like to see the debate continue and I am not expecting to change all minds instantly. I am just telling what happened to me and explaining why it became logical to me for this to happen. I can be as pigheaded as anyone and if my mind can be changed to see the logic, I have little doubt almost all others will be too- in time. The stop signs will stay as will a few other critical warnings that need to stay.
The biggest problem I see is making everyone aware that there are no caution signs for turns. A lot of folks have been using them as their confidence and ability to ride like they do for a long time. It could be an ugly first year if folks are not made aware of the changes.
-John
Mr. Mom put it best that folks rely way too much on the signs and that fact has been proven with all the arguments on this discussion by folks wanting to keep them. They make us feel safer. Sure they make sense when they are there to mark a curve, but as was pointed out, how does the sign know what is the safe speed for you to negotiate that curve? Every rider is different and has different abilities.
More importantly, what if just one sign is missing? Then what will all of you that rely on the signs for safety do? You will likely go where you are not wanting to, because you depended on the sign and not your abilities. That is what most riders these days have become- relying on completely on signage and not common sense.
I will admit that years ago, I had a few close calls on the trails because I was going too fast and relied on the signs too much. I can also tell you this, I have NEVER blown a curve or had any kind of a close call while riding the backcountry. It is not signed at all, why have I not gone recklessly into the woods and killed myself on a maple tree while riding the backcountry that has no signs what so ever? Because when I ride the back country, I rely 100% on my own abilities and common sense. I ride the speed that is safe for me, not what some sign says is safe for me.
This is the logic that the DNR is using and I believe that many of you will change your mind the more you think about it. It will not be a perfect scenario, there will still be idiots that go too fast or drink too much and have accidents, but I can say that along with myself never blowing a curve or having a close call in the backcoutry, I have never been with anyone or even heard of anyone boondocking and having that occur.
We all like to have that element of thrill while riding, but none of us want to die while out there and we all will slow down if the turn signs are removed from the system. Some may not slow down enough, but I am willing to bet 98-99% of the riders will slow down to a speed that is safe for the trails without the signs. I guess you can call the other 1-2% natural selection.
So the bottom line for me is, if you NEED a sign to tell you how fast to ride, you are riding beyond you abilities. Hard to argue with that.
I would like to see the debate continue and I am not expecting to change all minds instantly. I am just telling what happened to me and explaining why it became logical to me for this to happen. I can be as pigheaded as anyone and if my mind can be changed to see the logic, I have little doubt almost all others will be too- in time. The stop signs will stay as will a few other critical warnings that need to stay.
The biggest problem I see is making everyone aware that there are no caution signs for turns. A lot of folks have been using them as their confidence and ability to ride like they do for a long time. It could be an ugly first year if folks are not made aware of the changes.
-John
polarisrider1
New member
I completely understand what your saying. I guess if it is having a speed limit added and enforced or removing curve ahead signs I would take the lesser of the two evils.
These ideas do come about because we do have way to many snowmobile related deaths and the DNR would like you to live another day. It is never good to lose another tax payer in Michigan.
polarisrider1
New member
Speed, alcohol & lost it in a curve, are the main killers according to the reports.
Well, manufacturers make the speed, we the voters just ask for it. better not touch them.
Alcohol, well what a great money maker for the state in enforcement and in taxing it. better leave this one alone too.
Curves? well they don't give to the state, they don't complain, what can we do here? Logical choice to mess with. (just thinking out loud).
Well, manufacturers make the speed, we the voters just ask for it. better not touch them.
Alcohol, well what a great money maker for the state in enforcement and in taxing it. better leave this one alone too.
Curves? well they don't give to the state, they don't complain, what can we do here? Logical choice to mess with. (just thinking out loud).
favoritos
Well-known member
I like the signs because I look through the woods to find the trail. I run lead and I'm always watching for sleds coming. The sign gives enough warning to look for oncoming traffic.
I do not rely on signs being in place along the trails. We have all seen spots where the signs fell down or got moved. I will say that I feel safer riding in an area with accurate signs.
BTW, why do so many of the curves have a counter-bend before the actual curve? It is strange to see an arrow pointing in one direction while the actual trail is going the other way.
I do not rely on signs being in place along the trails. We have all seen spots where the signs fell down or got moved. I will say that I feel safer riding in an area with accurate signs.
BTW, why do so many of the curves have a counter-bend before the actual curve? It is strange to see an arrow pointing in one direction while the actual trail is going the other way.
lesledhead
New member
Well said John.
Eliminating the "overconfident" feeling is being implemented in many areas. Why did Michigan State parks get rid of all lifeguards? Because people were being overconfident and taking chances when they should know better. As you can see, the same idea is being implemented here.
As I said on the other thread, I completely understand why this is upsetting people. This is not a budget issue. This is a safety issue. At the very least, there should be a statewide marketing campaign that states "NOTICE: NO CURVE WARNINGS! SLOW DOWN." This should be posted at every trailhead. We don't want even ONE life to be the learning curve on this project.
Tony
Eliminating the "overconfident" feeling is being implemented in many areas. Why did Michigan State parks get rid of all lifeguards? Because people were being overconfident and taking chances when they should know better. As you can see, the same idea is being implemented here.
As I said on the other thread, I completely understand why this is upsetting people. This is not a budget issue. This is a safety issue. At the very least, there should be a statewide marketing campaign that states "NOTICE: NO CURVE WARNINGS! SLOW DOWN." This should be posted at every trailhead. We don't want even ONE life to be the learning curve on this project.
Tony
polarisrider1
New member
life guards are gone due to budget restrants.
Removing the signs from the trails, what a brilliant idea!
Think of the savings in the trail maintenance fund — they'll be able to reduce the price of the trail passes!
As a matter of fact, why not extend the idea and remove all similar signage from the state highways (probably can't do so on the Federal highways).
Think of the tax savings (auto fuel taxes, and more); not to mention the resulting carnage!
Think of the savings in the trail maintenance fund — they'll be able to reduce the price of the trail passes!
As a matter of fact, why not extend the idea and remove all similar signage from the state highways (probably can't do so on the Federal highways).
Think of the tax savings (auto fuel taxes, and more); not to mention the resulting carnage!
lesledhead
New member
I'm sure there were many reasons for that. I was told differently by a state park employee, but I do not know this as fact.