John I ride a lot of unplowed FRs as off trail opportunities & they are marked anyway for automobile traffic so would we take down those curve signs because snowmobiles are on them? ..... of couse not. To me when you are in the woods off trail you have left the world of pattern traffic so no signs are necessary. HUGE difference..... patterns & no patterns. Directing a flow & not directing a flow. When you have a marked trail you are directing the flow of traffic & must make it safe via signage. No way I want to come in to any marked trail 90 degree turn without curve signs in both dierctions. It very well could be the other guy that runs head on into me because no curve sign. To say signs make sledders ride too fast is bunk. You either put the hammer down or you don't but signs do tell me to slow for an upcoming curve & are very helpful.
Michigan removing turn ahead signs
- Thread starter mjkaliszak
- Start date
Nope, guess I should have just left it with my original comment on this.
Signs are good.
Common Sense is better.
I choose to follow the latter, not the former.
Looks like we once again found away to agree! LOL
like I've said up to this point=I can see both sides of this. at this point it is all hearsay until it tested over time!hopefully the results are safer trails,time will tell,then we can throw around the "I told you so' " I for one like the signs,but prefer safety 1st! I have seen the worst case scenario happen rite in front of me on the trail=death!!
I think that if one was 2 have 2 think about where he/she is going and always being on the edge of your seat all the time,then this will make anyone slow down a bit,The question is thou is it going to be enoug ? Time will Tell !
In the end this could really boost the economy for the dealers,Just think of all the repairs that will have to be made to Ricky Racers sno-machine,all the burnt out belts and what not from Ricky pulln Ricky back 2 town or the small recovery operation a guy has ?
'Ya the tree just jumped out in front of me'
I just would hate to see more obituaries in the end of this crazy idea !
In the end this could really boost the economy for the dealers,Just think of all the repairs that will have to be made to Ricky Racers sno-machine,all the burnt out belts and what not from Ricky pulln Ricky back 2 town or the small recovery operation a guy has ?
'Ya the tree just jumped out in front of me'
I just would hate to see more obituaries in the end of this crazy idea !
Where is the DNR proposal
Can someone provide actual information / language on what is being proposed by the DNR signage program recommendation? Lofsfire post is helpful, but I would like to see some actual info.
The article Lofsfire references says, "One curve on a trail in Marquette has four warning signs. Which Don Britton, who grooms the trails, says is leading to some reckless sledding." If it has that many warning signs my first inclination is to assume (a55 u me) that it must be a very hairy curve that has possibly had previous incidents. If I see four warning signs you better believe I am slowing down at that hot spot, regardless of what else is happening on the rest of the trail.
The excerpt also mentions, "The D.N.R. recommendations not only ask that the number of signs be reduced, but that they be made consistent throughout the state." I think we can all agree that consistent signage would be a great benefit. Sometimes it seems as if one trail is speaking one language and another trail is speaking a different language.
Where can the actual DNR's recommendation be found in its own words?
Can someone provide actual information / language on what is being proposed by the DNR signage program recommendation? Lofsfire post is helpful, but I would like to see some actual info.
The article Lofsfire references says, "One curve on a trail in Marquette has four warning signs. Which Don Britton, who grooms the trails, says is leading to some reckless sledding." If it has that many warning signs my first inclination is to assume (a55 u me) that it must be a very hairy curve that has possibly had previous incidents. If I see four warning signs you better believe I am slowing down at that hot spot, regardless of what else is happening on the rest of the trail.
The excerpt also mentions, "The D.N.R. recommendations not only ask that the number of signs be reduced, but that they be made consistent throughout the state." I think we can all agree that consistent signage would be a great benefit. Sometimes it seems as if one trail is speaking one language and another trail is speaking a different language.
Where can the actual DNR's recommendation be found in its own words?
eagle1
Well-known member
I just dont' get that the curve ahead sign makes you ride faster. To me it is just important as and intersection ahead sign. Meaning danger ahead, watch out for others.
I keep hearing words like logic and common sense, well we all know how much these get used nowadays.
No amount of or lack of signage is going to slow down the people who ride to fast and push the limits. Instead they want to make it harder for average joe to know when that rickey racer might be coming in his direction. So yes with out these signs I will say a prayer!
I keep hearing words like logic and common sense, well we all know how much these get used nowadays.
No amount of or lack of signage is going to slow down the people who ride to fast and push the limits. Instead they want to make it harder for average joe to know when that rickey racer might be coming in his direction. So yes with out these signs I will say a prayer!
This has always frustrated me as well!! I would rather not have a sign and rely on my eyes and my ability than have a chevron pointing right and the trail make a hard left before the sweeping right...
I agree with those who've stated we need more consistency. Some trail systems are signed very well, others are not. I do think we could get by with LESS signs (for instance, I don't need a sign to tell me I'm on a winding trail), but I still think some signs have their place (such as where the trail takes a 90 degree bend but it appears as though it goes straight).
mute, adjective: silent, lacking power of speech, unable to speak because of hereditary deafness, expressed without speech; especially because words would be inappropriate or inadequate ("A mute appeal")
moot, adjective: open to argument or debate ("That is a moot question"), of no legal significance (as having been previously decided)
It seems to me that the issue here is human behavior/psychology.
If trail riding habits would change without such signs in place, why wouldn't road driving habits change without the same kind of signs in place? I fail to see a [psychological] difference! (Mebby it's jus' me?)
And, by extension, if removing the "curve ahead" signs from the trails works (makes one more cautious), then if stop signs, yield signs, perhaps even speed limit signs were removed from the trails/roadways, why wouldn't that have the same psychological effect?
Not that it matters that much to me, I sure am not going to belabor the point.
trail riding vs boondocking signage comparisons REALLY
When I'm off road with my H1 I don't have signs and have had no problems (except for when the snow was ten foot deep in a hole, should have been signed); therefore why do we need them on the roadways?
Seriously, what about the many turns that have another road/trail going straight or another direction? I must be the only one that gets alittle "snow blind" at dusk and has a little difficulty distingishing the trail from a clearing in the woods during snow.
When I'm off road with my H1 I don't have signs and have had no problems (except for when the snow was ten foot deep in a hole, should have been signed
); therefore why do we need them on the roadways?Seriously, what about the many turns that have another road/trail going straight or another direction? I must be the only one that gets alittle "snow blind" at dusk and has a little difficulty distingishing the trail from a clearing in the woods during snow.
I too like the signs. I guess by definition I don't need them because I drive too slow. I'm not a Rickie Racer so I don't use them as cliff notes to the race course, but its nice to have a heads up. Either way is fine by me but I always thought they where a nice convenience. But if eliminating the signs will keep the knuckle heads off my side of the trail then I'm all for it.
Ditto.
skipschulz
New member
Over 2 years ago I was appointed by the MDNR to serve on this VOLUNTARY Committee to look at Snowmobile and ORV Trail Signage. We had over 15 people from EVERY trail user group, DNR, and the USFS on this committee. We had members of the Michigan Snowmobile Association on this committee. We met 3 times in Roscommon. If you know where I live, this was quite a haul for a VOLUNTARY committee. Our meetings took most of the day as we went through each and EVERY single sign for Snowmobile Trails.
IT WAS NOT THE DNR that made the decision to eliminate many of the Snowmobile Trail Signs. It was HEAVILY supported by the Representatives of the MSA, and sign after sign was discussed and voted on.
After my first meeting I contacted the Snowmobile Clubs in the Western UP to hold a meeting, so I could get a 'feeling' as to how they stood on the issue.
GUESS WHAT? Few Snowmobile clubs attended the meeting and those that did, UNDERSTOOD the reasoning for this committee to meet. What really bothered me, as a volunteer, and NOT HAVING to call this meeting, I had many clubs that wouldn't even hav the courtesy to call me back to let me know what they thought.
Now, 2 years later, after the decision has been made, and NOW people are concerned.
In case you didn't notice, We have had snowmobile accidents and fatalities on our trails for years. While ONE fatality is ONE too many, signs didn't prevent the loss of fathers, brothers, mothers, sisters, and friends.
If you snowmobile in Canada, or snowmobile out West, you will find that few states have all the warning signs that Michigan has. Even in Wisconsin, the Snowmobile Signs are much smaller then those in Michigan. The ONLY consistancy in snowmobile signing from one state to another is the Orange Diamond Confidence Markers with the snowmobile trail number on them. Out west they use Alphabetical letters.
Do snowmobilers in Canada and out west complain that they don't have an arrow for every corner, a hill sign for every hill, a 'curvy arrow' sign for every trail that has corners?
As the representatives of the MSA told us at the committee meetings, we have a lot of snowmobilers that use all the signing to simply go faster then they should.
In regards to poor visibility, if you feel you cannot see the trail to ride SAFELY, why do you feel you can see the signs?
While I have had a 20 year issue with the DNR in regards to not specifically identifying the ORV Trails, like that of Snowmobile Trails, on this issue, the DNR is NOT TO BLAME.
If you want to blame someone, blame me for being a volunteer that was appointed to this committee. A committee that the DNR did NOT have to do, they could very easily have just made the decision with NO PUBLIC input.
So take your shots at me, NOT the DNR.
IT WAS NOT THE DNR that made the decision to eliminate many of the Snowmobile Trail Signs. It was HEAVILY supported by the Representatives of the MSA, and sign after sign was discussed and voted on.
After my first meeting I contacted the Snowmobile Clubs in the Western UP to hold a meeting, so I could get a 'feeling' as to how they stood on the issue.
GUESS WHAT? Few Snowmobile clubs attended the meeting and those that did, UNDERSTOOD the reasoning for this committee to meet. What really bothered me, as a volunteer, and NOT HAVING to call this meeting, I had many clubs that wouldn't even hav the courtesy to call me back to let me know what they thought.
Now, 2 years later, after the decision has been made, and NOW people are concerned.
In case you didn't notice, We have had snowmobile accidents and fatalities on our trails for years. While ONE fatality is ONE too many, signs didn't prevent the loss of fathers, brothers, mothers, sisters, and friends.
If you snowmobile in Canada, or snowmobile out West, you will find that few states have all the warning signs that Michigan has. Even in Wisconsin, the Snowmobile Signs are much smaller then those in Michigan. The ONLY consistancy in snowmobile signing from one state to another is the Orange Diamond Confidence Markers with the snowmobile trail number on them. Out west they use Alphabetical letters.
Do snowmobilers in Canada and out west complain that they don't have an arrow for every corner, a hill sign for every hill, a 'curvy arrow' sign for every trail that has corners?
As the representatives of the MSA told us at the committee meetings, we have a lot of snowmobilers that use all the signing to simply go faster then they should.
In regards to poor visibility, if you feel you cannot see the trail to ride SAFELY, why do you feel you can see the signs?
While I have had a 20 year issue with the DNR in regards to not specifically identifying the ORV Trails, like that of Snowmobile Trails, on this issue, the DNR is NOT TO BLAME.
If you want to blame someone, blame me for being a volunteer that was appointed to this committee. A committee that the DNR did NOT have to do, they could very easily have just made the decision with NO PUBLIC input.
So take your shots at me, NOT the DNR.
rsvectordude
New member
I have to say I believe removing them will injury and kill more people when curve signs are removed but due to lack of snow early statistics probably won't show it. I'll be using my GPS alot more now then ever before even though I know most of the trails in the UP by heart. I feel sorry for the novices or people not familiar with the areas because they are going to be the ones caught off guard. And the thought the people will take more responsibility of how they ride without signs just isn't going to happen since follow the taillight is the game most people play. Just hope it's not a situation when people follow each other like sheep off a cliff drop or through a corner of trees. And the other thing I see as ironic is the first accident of this year with personal injury was a woman missing a turn!
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Thanks for volunteering your time and money to be part of this committee.
I for one don't care if the signs go away. I ride my ride and depend on no one or no-thing to get me home safely...
Stop signs, trail # markers and the orange directional signs is really all I need.
skipschulz
New member
Thank you Mike. I really didn't expect anyone to say anything nice after my 'novel-post.' You reassured me that some people really do care about those that VOLUNTEER for positions, even if some of those positions are controversial.
John, I agree with you on the comment about Obama, however it was NOT the 'government,' or the "DNR" that made the decision. The actual 'push' for removing a lot of these signs came from fellow snowmobilers. Yes, I am an avid snowmobiler and an ORV Rider.
John, I agree with you on the comment about Obama, however it was NOT the 'government,' or the "DNR" that made the decision. The actual 'push' for removing a lot of these signs came from fellow snowmobilers. Yes, I am an avid snowmobiler and an ORV Rider.