Not even close to apples to apples.
Edit:
I take this back, I can see the point here. What do you do without lifeguards? You be more careful!
Last edited:
Michigan removing turn ahead signs
- Thread starter mjkaliszak
- Start date
Not even close to apples to apples.
Edit:
I take this back, I can see the point here. What do you do without lifeguards? You be more careful!
I understand the logic of what the dnr is trying to accomplish here, but its ridicilious. does this mean we take away sharp curve signs on roads? not all people drive out of their abilities. its nice to have a sign to make you aware of a 90 degree turn coming up whether your dong 90 mph or 20. its safer! i always look at signs just to know what to expect, thats what we were taught in snowmobile safety school as teenagers.
as far as the boondocking comparisons they don't make sense, your not boondocking at 80 mph down a trail that could possibly turn left or right in a blink of an eye.
boondocking your normally doing 20-30-40 mph per hour in an open field or thru thick woods where you can't really even get you speed up to kill yourself.
it will be interesting to see how many riders kill themselves on unmarked corners if this law come to fruition, something tells me the numbers will be significantly higher.
as far as the boondocking comparisons they don't make sense, your not boondocking at 80 mph down a trail that could possibly turn left or right in a blink of an eye.
boondocking your normally doing 20-30-40 mph per hour in an open field or thru thick woods where you can't really even get you speed up to kill yourself.
it will be interesting to see how many riders kill themselves on unmarked corners if this law come to fruition, something tells me the numbers will be significantly higher.
raceinsnow
New member
This is what I see will happen next,someone dies because a corner sign was removed and then the family sues the state (DNR) and we all pay for that because it comes out of the trail fund.I think removing the signs is a bad idea.We need to make snowmobiling safer.If you want to slow the sleds down dont groom the trails -speed bumps.
Just like the old days. No grooming saves lives...
Wouldn't that be fun!
chevytaHOE5674
New member
If you don't know the trail and what lies ahead (sharp turn, hill, etc) then you shouldn't be going 80mph on the trail just the same as you wouldn't go 80mph boondocking in unfamiliar areas. I boondock places that I know like the back of my hand and will crack the throttle wide open, also ride places I've never been at a pace just fast enough to keep from getting stuck. If your only confident in your abilities without signs at 20-30-40mph that the is the speed you should be traveling, not putting all your faith/life in a little 2 cent sign.
Thanks..
D
Deleted member 10829
Guest
Removing the signs from the trails, what a brilliant idea!
Think of the savings in the trail maintenance fund — they'll be able to reduce the price of the trail passes!
As a matter of fact, why not extend the idea and remove all similar signage from the state highways (probably can't do so on the Federal highways).
Think of the tax savings (auto fuel taxes, and more); not to mention the resulting carnage!
Wisdom with a little sarcasm, I love it!
Of course you don't need signs off trail, there's no comparison to the average rate of speed and no specific route. Not even stop signs off trail. You can't compare trail riding to off trail. What about the 2% that blow a corner and injure one of the 98%? We have to think beyond just how it will affect ourselves! I won't be changing my mind on this one! There is far more opportunity for bad to come of this than good.
Why don't they just make the manufacturers govern the sleds. Make it so we can only go 40 mph and then we'll all be safe. Let's get more big brother action in our lives. Let's make cigarettes illegal, alcohol illegal, guns illegal, cars illegal. It really makes sense if the government just removes everything that is hazardous to us. They should protect all of us by removing everything dangerous. Seems like that would be the real answer. They're worried about signs in the middle of the goddam woods, yet we have 2,3,4 times convicted drunk drivers loose in our society. Wow, thanks for the help and worrying about the real issues in life.
I don't rely on signs to get me through the trails, I rely on my ability. Half the corner signs are on the trees on the outside/backside of the corner anyways, so by then it's too late to do any good. It's great that the powers that be always think they know what's good for everyone else. Take 'em down, don't matter to me.
I don't rely on signs to get me through the trails, I rely on my ability. Half the corner signs are on the trees on the outside/backside of the corner anyways, so by then it's too late to do any good. It's great that the powers that be always think they know what's good for everyone else. Take 'em down, don't matter to me.
D
Deleted member 10829
Guest
And more people have a better chance of dieing!! Duh.
First I don't think we are talking about all signs. Likely stop, cross roads, and some 90 deg, might stay? But Like John said I do a lot off off trail ridding and do not get into much trouble. I think if you ride without as many signs you will learn to read the trail in other ways. I don't think signage stops trail hogs. Some people are going to cut corners or ride down the middle its just what they do. I have come up on slow riders and just follow, I cringe as I see them cut blind corners. this is not from over ridding the trail its just the way people ride. I do think Michigan is over signed. (JMHO)
Actually, yes I am! Many of the logging roads I boondock on are exactly similar to what we use for trails up here and turn right or left in the blink of an eye. In fact, some of the groomed and signed trails are ones I used to use for boondocking and some logging roads that were once groomed trails eons ago are now good boondocking trails.
And I can easily get going fast enough while boondocking to crash and kill myself. Why don't I? Like I said in my first post, because when I am boondocking, I HAVE TO RELY ON MY OWN SKILL AND SENSIBILITY AND NOT A SIGN TO HOLD MY HAND AND TELL ME WHAT TO DO!!!!
I think the point you are making is that boondock riding is very different from trail riding and I agree. That said, I go slow because there is no safety net for me like signs. I could go 80 (well, maybe more like 50-60 in deep snow) and run right into a tree while boondocking, but I don't because I HAVE NO SIGN TO TELL ME TO TURN RIGHT OR LEFT. I ride within by abilities. That is what the DNR wants to return to the activity- responsibility. Sleds have gotten way faster and have way better handling and that combined with folks relying completely on signs is creating a deadly situation. The only viable answer is to force folks to ride within their abilities, since so many are now choosing to rely on signs and not common sense.
What amazes me is how this board is so full of folks fighting the "nanny state", but yet everyone wants a simple trail sign to tell them how to ride!
What gives? What about we all take responsibilities for our riding and not depend on signs to hold our hands? Try thinking forward on this a bit, or perhaps out of the box.Again I will ask, what do you all do about a sign that is missing? Pray? No thanks, I would much rather ride at a speed that is safe for me, sign or no sign.
-John
To me comparing off trail riding to trail riding is an AWFUL example of useful signage. Trail riding keeps traffic in a pattern of known flow with rules of trail riding like keeping right & passing slower or stopped sleds in a safe manner. I do use trail signage to my advantage when trail riding & they do make the experience more safe. On the other hand off trail riding is just that off trail no traffic patterns flare out in any direction & ride in circles if you want just stay clear of your buds. So why would I look for signage off trail???? Take boating as an example when in channels, rivers ,intracoastal buoys mark the way + hazards & you are supposed to be right or left of the buoy depending on your travel direction. Now when I'm in the ocean I have open water no markers or buoys no traffic pattern & I can go wherever only thing I'm looking for is the 2 mile buoy. To me this is a fair comparison of similar sports of signage & no signage & different applications of the sport. Trail riding traffic is in known patterns & you need signage vs off trail no traffic patterns no need for signage & I would not expect it. While I'm at it get rid of the few 1000s of trail stop signs in the middle of no where & on unused driveways.lol
Whitedust, I am ONLY talking about turn ahead signs. MI does not use signs telling folks about sled etiquette like keeping right & passing slower or stopped sleds in a safe manner.
I only use the boondocking example to illustrate that without signs, you are forced to ride to your ability and no further. No signs to give you added (but false) confidence and take you to a speed that you cannot react to in time.
-John
I only use the boondocking example to illustrate that without signs, you are forced to ride to your ability and no further. No signs to give you added (but false) confidence and take you to a speed that you cannot react to in time.
-John
Exactly.
I guess to me, it comes down to this: If you are relying on someone else to inform you on when to be ready to turn or slow down on your snowmobile, then you are not using common sense.
I like to ride fast, and as aggressively as the next, heck, that's the spirit of snowmobiling. I get that. But to depend on someone or something else for you to make decisions on the trail, IMO, is ludicris.
John I know what you are saying but I'm with Mark on this one & I'm not likely to change my mind about curve signs nor do I think off trail riding & marked trail riding are simular in sign useage. I think my boating comparison is fair sport to sport for signage off trail & on trail as differnt animals. Like Nash said there will be carnage when they remove curve signs & I agree with him as well. We just need to agree to disagree on this topic.
i agree to disagree with the boondocking comparison. you may get going that fast but the majority of boondockers prolly don't, also if your riding 40 mph in deep snow its a heck of alot easier to stop then if your doing 40 on a packed trail. everyone is missing the point about the signage. i am not saying i rely solely on a sign to tell me where to go, but its a nice reference to have, and a safe reference at that.
also the numbers of boondockers compared to trail riders is so low that you couldn't compare the amount of accidents to one or the other.
it seems the most the pictures i see on the site of boondockers are in the pretty thick terrian or down a wide logging road without any traffic where your chance of blowing a corner is less of a corcern than on a trail with a lot more traffic.
im sorry if i am pissing any one off here its just how i feel.
i guess what i am saying is its a stupid a-- idea!
also the numbers of boondockers compared to trail riders is so low that you couldn't compare the amount of accidents to one or the other.
it seems the most the pictures i see on the site of boondockers are in the pretty thick terrian or down a wide logging road without any traffic where your chance of blowing a corner is less of a corcern than on a trail with a lot more traffic.
im sorry if i am pissing any one off here its just how i feel.
i guess what i am saying is its a stupid a-- idea!
John I know what you are saying but I'm with Mark on this one & I'm not likely to change my mind about curve signs nor do I think off trail riding & marked trail riding are simular in sign useage. I think my boating comparison is fair sport to sport for signage off trail & on trail as differnt animals. Like Nash said there will be carnage when they remove curve signs & I agree with him as well. We just need to agree to disagree on this topic.
Well, like I said, I was not out to change everyone's mind. I was in the same boat (no pun intended), thinking it was an INSANE IDEA, but once I really sat down and thought it out completely, I realized that without signs, I would ride much slower on the trail and so would everyone else. No one in their right mind is going to purposely go flying down the trail full speed ahead if they do not know what lies ahead. Drunks will and someone that is just not right in their head will, but they will do it with all the signs as well, so mute point.
I don't think any analogy is a good one- especially the automobile one. I was only trying to show that riding the bush without signs, your riding habits will change- GUARANTEED, and thus removing the signs will force folks to change their riding habits. Perhaps that is what folks do not want, to be forced to ride within their abilities, not the fact that they think it will make it less safe.
-John
D
Deleted member 10829
Guest
xcr440,
Are you a politician? You seem to support both sides, agreeing with me in one post and now with the other side.
Are you a politician? You seem to support both sides, agreeing with me in one post and now with the other side.
I posted on the other thread that I am indifferent to this, but the more I think about this the less issue I have with it. I see the rationale. I've heard many times in a group I've ridden with people complaining about an unmarked turn that surprised them because it wasn't marked. We've ridden in parts of MN and Quebec where there is very little signage compared to the UP, and you get used to it fairly quickly and it is better to rely on your line of site rather than on the sign. Even if you don't intend to, you do become reliant on the signs after awhile and that's not a good thing in case a sign is missing or came down for some reason.
I'm not adding anything new that others haven't said above, but I don't think this is that bad of an idea.
If the DNR wanted to remove some of the hundreds of stop signs whenever you go through a town and replace them with yield signs, I'd defiinitely support that!
I'm not adding anything new that others haven't said above, but I don't think this is that bad of an idea.
If the DNR wanted to remove some of the hundreds of stop signs whenever you go through a town and replace them with yield signs, I'd defiinitely support that!
T
Team Elkhorn
Guest
I too like the signs. I guess by definition I don't need them because I drive too slow. I'm not a Rickie Racer so I don't use them as cliff notes to the race course, but its nice to have a heads up. Either way is fine by me but I always thought they where a nice convenience. But if eliminating the signs will keep the knuckle heads off my side of the trail then I'm all for it.