Michigan removing turn ahead signs

[Admin]

Tell me about it, sometime I do getting the feeling I bring this on myself.

Glad you found the humor!

By the way, my favorite is:
How many engineers does it take to screw in a lightbulb?

Answer: Any number divided by zero!

Wish I had a dime for every time someone told me "It must be nice to get paid to be wrong" !

Have a good one!

-John

 

[polarisrider1]

Were is Skylar when we need him?

 

[xcr440]

When I ride on a marked groomed trail (at whatever speed I'm riding at) there is a expectation of signage just as if I'm riding on a highway. If the trail isn't groomed or marked, I don't have the expectation. I have that expectation because by grooming and marking you have created a condition similar to driving on a highway.

This is EXACTLY why people on snowmobiles have become spoiled and misled. EXPECTATION of being groomed, with signage, like you are riding on a highway.

You are not on a highway. You are on a snowmobile trail. People VOLUNTEER to make these trails as nice as possible for those who EXPECT flat, signed super highway trails. Short of a bridge at some crossings, I would bet there was not one once of engineering that took place to develop or maintain that trail. Trails connect bars, to gas stations, and to lodging, for purposes of tourism. YOU as the RIDER are responsible for your own actions out there on the trails. Good luck hiring a lawyer to do anything for you besides sue another rider that may have caused you bodily harm. If you do hire a lawyer for a snowmobiling incident you had happen because of a missing or mis-engineered sign, you should not be out there on a sled.

 

[xsledder]

xsledder, with all due respect to your engineering degree, the snowmobile trail system is not a civil engineering project. It is not a highway system. The whole point of riding a snowmobile is to get away from the highways, and all the crap that goes along with them.

Read some of my earlier posts about expectations. If this was complete true, then why would the FHWA take it upon themselves to dedicate a complete part of the MUTCD to shared-use bike paths. Aren't they used for getting away from highways and all the crap that goes along with them. And, a lot of the bridges on the snowmobile trails have been engineered so yes they are engineering projects. Your next point is?

 

[G]

Tell me about it, sometime I do getting the feeling I bring this on myself.

Sorry if I offended you. My engineering buddies are some of my oldest sledding buddies. They have their little quirks just as we all do. Except for me of course. I have not done ANYTHING wrong EVER since 1977. Yeah, right.

 

[snoluver1]

I'll make one last point and then I'm done. When you are on a snowmobile, the only thing you should EXPECT is the unexpected!

 

[polarisrider1]

Yesterday I noticed many blown corners (over shot). The curve ahead signs and stop ahead signs have been removed in the Irons area. I ride this area all the time and almost ran a stop sign. Yes we do rely on these signs. Carnage is going to increase.

 

[xsledder]

I'll make one last point and then I'm done. When you are on a snowmobile, the only thing you should EXPECT is the unexpected!

That was taught in driver's ed and snowmobile safety class. Why do you feel this is a point. Wouldn't that fall under "common sense". The meaning behind your point escapes me.

 

[xsledder]

Sorry if I offended you. My engineering buddies are some of my oldest sledding buddies. They have their little quirks just as we all do. Except for me of course. I have not done ANYTHING wrong EVER since 1977. Yeah, right.

Was not offended at all. Engineers are a different breed. I'm use to it. Heard them all before and even make up a few myself.

 

[whitedust]

Yesterday I noticed many blown corners (over shot). The curve ahead signs and stop ahead signs have been removed in the Irons area. I ride this area all the time and almost ran a stop sign. Yes we do rely on these signs. Carnage is going to increase.

Removing curve signs is crazy removing stop ahead signs is inviting carnage!!!! There are pine lined trails in UP that 1st you pick up stop ahead sign then start braking for stop sign & there is no way to stop in time unless you picked up stop ahead sign unless you are riding at like 10 mph max. No one doing that even snowgezzers ride 35 45 mph in the straights. Removing signs gets nuttier in all considerations as not going to slow down Ricky Racer anyway just more dangerous for us all.

 

[skiroule]

Don't really have time to add much in the way of a comment. Still trying to get the ice off my windshield.

I was hoping that the sign program would actually be expanded to include things like "ROCK", "STUMP", or "BURIED WINDFALL".

I'm sure a lot of us have ridden on trails where signs are scarce or non-existent. I wonder how many of us ride differently in those situations?

Now where did I put that scraper, or brush, or whatever....

 

[tealracing16]

As an engineer I have a question for you. If there were studies done on every mile of the trail, what happens (and very often) when a piece of land changes ownership and the new owners want the trail run somewhere else? We as volunteers come up with a new plan and put it into place. We have been changing the trail around WI-29 in Green Bay for 3 years now. How can the engineers expect to understand the traffic pattern of a trail that doesn't exist until we sign it? I have a mechanical background so I can't comment on the civil side of things.

Also - Here in WI it's almost all private property so how can we use any kind of automobile examples?

 

[timo]

damn this thread is getting hilarious.

 

[frnash]

1. I am NOT an engineer! In spite of a 40+ year career as a software engineer, my degree is in the pure sciences (BS, Mathematics), 'cuz there were no formal degree programs in software engineering in the late 1950s - early 1960s at MTU!

However, at Michigan Tech I did have plenty of opportunities to interact with engineering students and faculty. I even experienced some quite rudimentary exposure to engineering courses in the Army (Corps of Engineers) ROTC program (such as: structural engineering, soil engineering, construction engineering, pavement design), including some practical applications at ROTC summer camp at "Fort Lost-in-the-Woods, in the state of Misery", constructing roadways, various different bridges, other structures, rigging (moving of extremely large or heavy objects), explosives and demolitions (fun course! ) etc.

I'd say I had just enough exposure to engineering to develop a great respect for engineers! (The same goes for meteorologists — at least the few good ones; that's a field I would consider to be more pure science than engineering.)

2. Remember, there is nothing "common" about "common sense"!

---

P.S.: quoted from the Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices:

"The Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices, or MUTCD defines the standards used by road managers nationwide to install and maintain traffic control devices on all public streets, highways, bikeways, and private roads open to public traffic."

Bikeways? But not snowmobile trails! (?)

 

[G]

It is possible to ride groomed trails from my house in NW MN all the way to the Atlantic Ocean and back. All you really need is snow. This would of course mean that I would have to go through several States as well as a Canadian Province or two. It would be nice it there were a uniform sign system for the entire ride. But there isn't. It really doesn't matter. There are many other things to think about for a ride like this. I am going to do it anyway. How much of this thread could be blamed on 'lack of snow'?

 

[harski]

1. I am NOT an engineer! In spite of a 40+ year career as a software engineer, my degree is in the pure sciences (BS, Mathematics), 'cuz there were no formal degree programs in software engineering in the late 1950s - early 1960s at MTU!

However, at Michigan Tech I did have plenty of opportunities to interact with engineering students and faculty. I even experienced some quite rudimentary exposure to engineering courses in the Army (Corps of Engineers) ROTC program (such as: structural engineering, soil engineering, construction engineering, pavement design), including some practical applications at ROTC summer camp at "Fort Lost-in-the-Woods, in the state of Misery", constructing roadways, various different bridges, other structures, rigging (moving of extremely large or heavy objects), explosives and demolitions (fun course! ) etc.

I'd say I had just enough exposure to engineering to develop a great respect for engineers! (The same goes for meteorologists — at least the few good ones; that's a field I would consider to be more pure science than engineering.)

2. Remember, there is nothing "common" about "common sense"!

---

P.S.: quoted from the Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices:

Bikeways? But not snowmobile trails! (?)

They just finished a new roadway improvement project by my house that included a new "bike lane" on the roadway and a "multiuse path" off the roadway. Well, the "path" includes hill grade percentages for the bicyclists. Really? Totally being catered to in my mind. I guess that's why the area is considered one of the most friendliest bike communities in the country.

Anyway, back to no curve signs. Been a great thread with mostly respectable point of views. We'll see what the outcome beholds.

Harski

 

[xsledder]

As an engineer I have a question for you. If there were studies done on every mile of the trail, what happens (and very often) when a piece of land changes ownership and the new owners want the trail run somewhere else? We as volunteers come up with a new plan and put it into place. We have been changing the trail around WI-29 in Green Bay for 3 years now. How can the engineers expect to understand the traffic pattern of a trail that doesn't exist until we sign it? I have a mechanical background so I can't comment on the civil side of things.

Also - Here in WI it's almost all private property so how can we use any kind of automobile examples?

Give the plan to the engineer before you mark the rerouted trail. Or if time is an issue, take the engineer out to the trail after it is marked for verification. There is more to placing a sign then just placing one anywhere. (I don't want to get into all the technical aspects of proper posting.)

Really what that committee should have done was contact FHWA, get a consultant on board, and with FHWA establish signage guidelines for snowmobile and ATV trails. (FHWA could also provide the engineering expertise.) They could have done something where there is a class for a trail based on its geometrics (like, the Bill Nicolls could be a Class A trail and the Dreamland trail could be a Class D trail.), not involving speed, and establish appropriate signing for that class of trail. Then the maps can be printed with a color designating the trail class and now people know what to expect. So a Class A trail that has more grooming and higher speeds will have signage for stop ahead, curves, etc. and Class D trails can be served with trail blazer and trail blazers with arrows in them (and of course stop ahead and stop signs). Of course the snowmobile safety class instructors most teach the new sledders about the new trail classification and their signing requirements. (Maybe add 30 minutes to the class.)

Just like our roadway system, which people are already accustom to.

Now when you create a new trail it falls under a class, instead of designing it for speed, the engineer can use the guidelines for checking parts of the trail for proper signage. Minizing their involvement. You can change the class of the trail at logical termini like intersections.

 

[xsledder]

1. I am NOT an engineer! In spite of a 40+ year career as a software engineer, my degree is in the pure sciences (BS, Mathematics), 'cuz there were no formal degree programs in software engineering in the late 1950s - early 1960s at MTU!

However, at Michigan Tech I did have plenty of opportunities to interact with engineering students and faculty. I even experienced some quite rudimentary exposure to engineering courses in the Army (Corps of Engineers) ROTC program (such as: structural engineering, soil engineering, construction engineering, pavement design), including some practical applications at ROTC summer camp at "Fort Lost-in-the-Woods, in the state of Misery", constructing roadways, various different bridges, other structures, rigging (moving of extremely large or heavy objects), explosives and demolitions (fun course! ) etc.

I'd say I had just enough exposure to engineering to develop a great respect for engineers! (The same goes for meteorologists — at least the few good ones; that's a field I would consider to be more pure science than engineering.)

2. Remember, there is nothing "common" about "common sense"!

---

P.S.: quoted from the Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices:

Bikeways? But not snowmobile trails! (?)

Agree, engineering is not science but the practicable application of science.

 

[xsledder]

They just finished a new roadway improvement project by my house that included a new "bike lane" on the roadway and a "multiuse path" off the roadway. Well, the "path" includes hill grade percentages for the bicyclists. Really? Totally being catered to in my mind. I guess that's why the area is considered one of the most friendliest bike communities in the country.

Anyway, back to no curve signs. Been a great thread with mostly respectable point of views. We'll see what the outcome beholds.

Harski

I designed a few bike paths that involved federal monies. I had to design the bike path for 30 mph. Really, 30 mph! When is the recreational/casual bicyclist riding their bike at 30 mph?

 

[xcr440]

I designed a few bike paths that involved federal monies. I had to design the bike path for 30 mph. Really, 30 mph! When is the recreational/casual bicyclist riding their bike at 30 mph?

But, with this said, isn't it true that most road ways are designed for speeds approx. 20-30mph more than what the posted speed limit will be? (A bit off topic, but since we have the ear of the engineer)