Michigan removing turn ahead signs

[sixball]

1) Do signs keep people on there side of the trail ? I have had people coming down straightaways on my side.
2) How many signs are being removed? All, some, it might help if we know more.
3) Need them in snow dust? Maybe back off. Ya it might be a fair distance.
4) Do signs make ridding a 600 or a 800 right or wrong? You can over ride a 440 if you want.
5) maybe we should put 200' marker 100' marker and so on so we could get speeds up for tight turns like road racing ?
I just have not seen signs make good riders or bad riders. I think it has a lot more to do with the right thumb and a lack of common scene. And respect.

Some people say running a sled without a picked track is crazy. Some good points and some stupid but in the end its like life, you can not legislate stupid. And signs will not make smart riders.

I would like to know how much signage we are talking about? Any DNR people out there?

 

[mschu2008doo]

I understand they are trying to slow people down but what a bad idea. When you have a little snow on the trail and all the dust that is thrown up from sleds in front of you or passing you the other way you can not see anything for a long way infront of you.
At night is the worst. I have ridden many times where you are not going super fast and all of the sudden its a white out, can not see your hood and here is a curve. If not for the sign I would of ended up in a tree.

They need them for safety I think.

 

[lesledhead]

In the end, like one poster just mentioned, all signs do is allow you to ride the trail faster. Period. We can all agree or disagree. That point is well taken. I would like everyone on this board to ride a seasonal, logging or forest road (legally) this winter that does not have any trail signs. Then come back and tell us what your experience was. Guess what. It will be fun.

 

[rsvectordude]

I think the real motive here was to remove some liability to trail owners plain and simple. A few people I know already are adding reflective tape arrows to trees on their own behalf during trail stops on the worst curves. Safety still there just no one knows who put the tape up!

 

[90s]

What other states are considering reducing the trail signing?? I am very active in the AWSC in WI, and have not heard any mention of reducing trail signage. How many RR grades and places where the strail is straight for some distance, does the trail suddenly take a hard right or left. On the trail that I maintain, we have several places that the trail is straight and continues, and then suddenly takes a hard left or right. With the appropiate sign preceding the change of direction and the chevron in the corner, both oncoming & you are alerted to the change. The sign being YELLOW by itself indicates caution, slow down, that there is a trail condition ahead that warrants caution. I thought the signing around the Greenland, Mass, Kenton, Sidnaw Watersmeet, Bruce Crossing, Rousseau area was very adequate this year.

 

[raceinsnow]

The same old story " HOW CAN WE SLOW SNOWMOBILES DOWN" .The problem I see is every person has different riding skills and the person I will call "Joe example" rides a two up,is 65 years old wears glasses (that are fogging up) and is bird watching. Joe example is out riding and some snowmobile riders pass joe on the trail going faster than him and he cant understand how they could go that fast with out being out of control so he starts campaigning to slow snowmobiles down. I am not saying that one person is behind this but that is how it starts. Now I don't ride like joe example and me and my riding freinds have higher skills than joe example but joe wants everyone to ride like him, single file and slow and in control like his riding skills. Don't tell me how to ride my snowmoble! I average about 2000 miles a year on the Michigan trails and I don't see any problems with fast out of control snowmobiles. Someone said that national highway system has nothing to do with the trail system but I disagree.The highway system started with trails, the signs to mark the trails and the they groomed and then paved the trails and we have roads. If they take the curve ahead signs down in the trails this is a step backwards for trail safety and management. Trail grooming is a lot better and signage is the next positive step forward in trail managment. I am not saying that every slight corner has to be marked but don't take down any signs. And I would like to add one more thing don't compare Michigan with any other states trail systems because they are not the same. The people that ride here are riding here for different reasons than the people in Wyoming, these two places do not compare to each other.

 

[G]

I have read all the posts. I have decided that signage on snowmobile trails is unnecessary and the opposite of safe. They allow riders to pay less attention to what they are doing. An inattentive rider is an unsafe rider. If you rely heavily on signs to guage your speed what happens if one or two really important signs gets knocked down? If you are riding a snowmobile fast or slow you should recognize a corner coming up and assume that it could be as much as a 180 for all you know. They have made the interstate highway system as safe as possible with signs and speed limits so now folks don't have anything to worry about so they text and talk constantly on their cell phones. Most of these folks can only do one thing at a time. They are rotten drivers. If you are not paying attention every second you are riding your sled you are not being responsible. I ride assuming the worst from all oncoming traffic. At road crossings I assume that there will be a car coming so I am slowing down enough so I actually could stop under control if I needed to. If you want to look at birds or gaze at the sky while riding pull off the trail and stop. If you are underway on a groomed trail you better be paying attention to what is in front of you. Common sense wins out over signs every time. If you don't have any common sense all the signs in the world won't help. I ride 5000 miles a year and I haven't knicked my own sled or caused anyone else to wreck for ten years plus. You ride the conditions plain and simple.

 

[russholio]

I don't see any problems with fast out of control snowmobiles.

Seriously? If so, that's scary. I'm hoping you meant to say "fast IN control snowmobiles".

They allow riders to pay less attention to what they are doing. An inattentive rider is an unsafe rider. If you rely heavily on signs to guage your speed what happens if one or two really important signs gets knocked down? If you are riding a snowmobile fast or slow you should recognize a corner coming up and assume that it could be as much as a 180 for all you know.

How about those of us who use the signs as much to be especially alert that somebody we can't yet see could be barreling around that corner, than we do to control our own speed?

The way I see it, some signs are necessary. All are not. I don't need a sign to tell me I'm on a winding trail, or a hill, or that there's a gentle curve coming up (with a few exceptions to the latter). However, it sure is nice to have some forewarning that the trail ahead is going to take a drastic change in direction. Ricky Racer is going to be Ricky Racer, signs or not. Can't legislate common sense. Without signage, folks who ride responsibly may ride even more cautiously, eliciting more complaints from those who like to ride fast.

 

[G]

Some questions. Which is more dangerous - Ricky Racer with a fresh sled with studs and good carbides with the latest goggles/shield tech so he can actually see or somebody with one hand on the handlebars, completely fogged up and looking sideways who couldn't stop or turn if he had to because he is riding junk. Answer - Both. You do not have to be Ricky Racer to blow a corner. There are a lot of SnowGeezers that don't even understand the concept of keeping right. I have seen folks go up hills on the left side. I have seen groups of sleds parked on the trail right before or after a sharp blind curve. I have seen Dad taking Junior out for a ride on a weekend on a busy trail with Junior between Dad and the handlebars with neither wearing a helmet. What do you suppose this does for control and/or reaction time? The point is that none of this is illegal or wrong. The trails are open to anyone that has a sled and the proper licenses. The old, the young, brand new sleds, old junky sleds, folks with non functional gear and folks with the latest and greatest stuff. Some like to ride fast and some like to just bump along. The trails have to be shared. If you ride groomed trails you have to be paying attention all the time because there are a lot of riders out there that don't have a clue. Signage or lack of signs is a very small piece of the puzzle.

 

[russholio]

Some questions. Which is more dangerous - Ricky Racer with a fresh sled with studs and good carbides with the latest goggles/shield tech so he can actually see or somebody with one hand on the handlebars, completely fogged up and looking sideways who couldn't stop or turn if he had to because he is riding junk. Answer - Both. You do not have to be Ricky Racer to blow a corner. There are a lot of SnowGeezers that don't even understand the concept of keeping right. I have seen folks go up hills on the left side. I have seen groups of sleds parked on the trail right before or after a sharp blind curve. I have seen Dad taking Junior out for a ride on a weekend on a busy trail with Junior between Dad and the handlebars with neither wearing a helmet. What do you suppose this does for control and/or reaction time? The point is that none of this is illegal or wrong. The trails are open to anyone that has a sled and the proper licenses. The old, the young, brand new sleds, old junky sleds, folks with non functional gear and folks with the latest and greatest stuff. Some like to ride fast and some like to just bump along. The trails have to be shared. If you ride groomed trails you have to be paying attention all the time because there are a lot of riders out there that don't have a clue. Signage or lack of signs is a very small piece of the puzzle.

Good points, Grub. Like so many other things in life, it all boils down to using common sense and staying within your abilities.

 

[mride460]

Seriously? If so, that's scary. I'm hoping you meant to say "fast IN control snowmobiles".
.

I think you completely missed what his point was in that statement. He means "fast out of control" as seen through the eyes of his "Joe example" and he is making a good point.
Many that like to ride the trails at 30mph and smell the roses so to speak do most of the "Ricky racer" complaining. Its because they are the ones getting passed on the trail and don't like meeting a sled in a corner that is going faster than them. Even if on the correct side of the corner going that fast around a corner "they must be out of control"
I do understand it can be startling to meet a sled in a corner that is running faster than you are, but of they're on their side of the trail get over it, it doesn't mean their out of control..

 

[mride460]

SnowGeezers

I love it!!

 

[polarisrider1]

Snowgeezers, that is good! We got them a plenty in my little retirement area of riding. Logged 85 miles on the Rmk today (all standing up). I made note of trail signage and the Irons area tourist association must of got the memo. They have way less signage this year with no curve ahead indicators or stop ahead signs to be found. I easily could see curves that were blown today, this early in the program. I am for signage to save lives. Seen plenty of kids riding with grown ups today going bar to bar. Even seen bar riders going down the center of a plowed road?????? What part of snowmobile do they not get??

 

[chords]

The DNR wants to get out of the sign business. ~ $110,000 last year with a MN company. What may have started as a good idea - lets groom trails and provide signage and markers, has turned into riders ( permit buyers ) expecting trails to be marked for anything and everything possible ahead. I believe it was members on the SAW committee that are proposing this change, not the DNR. And you cant just go out and tack a turn arrow on a tree. Every sign placement has first gone thru the DNR engineering department with very strict guidelines of when and where a sign has to be placed with some allowance for local clubs to decide. Between Mother Nature and vandels and regulations its hard to keep it all in order. There intent is not to remove vital safety warnings such as road crossings, stop and warning signs. Thats my take.

 

[russholio]

I think you completely missed what his point was in that statement. He means "fast out of control" as seen through the eyes of his "Joe example" and he is making a good point.
Many that like to ride the trails at 30mph and smell the roses so to speak do most of the "Ricky racer" complaining. Its because they are the ones getting passed on the trail and don't like meeting a sled in a corner that is going faster than them. Even if on the correct side of the corner going that fast around a corner "they must be out of control"
I do understand it can be startling to meet a sled in a corner that is running faster than you are, but of they're on their side of the trail get over it, it doesn't mean their out of control..

I realized after I posted that his statement could be taken a couple of different ways. So maybe I missed his point, or maybe not. I guess we won't know unless he comments. Regardless, I don't feel his description of "Joe Example" is accurate of the average rider. I think it better describes a "snowgeezer".

I will freely admit that I'm probably more of what many of you would consider a "snowgeezer" than I am a Ricky Racer (though I don't mind opening it up when conditions are safe to do so). I make no apologies for it. I know the extent of my abilities and I ride within them. I don't need to constantly be on the throttle to get my fix. My #1 responsibility is to get myself and my riding pards back alive, and so far I've succeeded in that. That doesn't mean everybody should feel that way, and I understand many don't. I personally couldn't care less who or how many sleds pass me on the trail, I'm not in any race. I also have no problem meeting someone in a corner, regardless of their speed, provided -- as you said -- they're IN CONTROL and on their side of the trail (or in the woods on their side of the trail, for all I care). If they're on my side of the trail, then they either A) don't know trail etiquette, B) are going too fast for the conditions, C) do not have the abilities they think they do, or D) all of the above. In any case, it happens. Maybe not as often as it may seem given all the discussion this subject has had, but it does happen and it's not fun. "Out of control" and "fast" are not synonymous. Two completely different topics.

 

[mride460]

I know the extent of my abilities and I ride within them. I don't need to constantly be on the throttle to get my fix. My #1 responsibility is to get myself and my riding pards back alive, and so far I've succeeded in that. That doesn't mean everybody should feel that way, and I understand many don't. I personally couldn't care less who or how many sleds pass me on the trail, I'm not in any race. I also have no problem meeting someone in a corner, regardless of their speed, provided -- as you said -- they're IN CONTROL and on their side of the trail (or in the woods on their side of the trail, for all I care). If they're on my side of the trail, then they either A) don't know trail etiquette, B) are going too fast for the conditions, C) do not have the abilities they think they do, or D) all of the above. In any case, it happens. Maybe not as often as it may seem given all the discussion this subject has had, but it does happen and it's not fun. "Out of control" and "fast" are not synonymous. Two completely different topics.

Well said!

 

[Marty]

OK, lets try and simplify this no curve ahead sign idea. What is always present on the outside of a curve left or right......a berm, right? If you miss the turn for whatever reason, chances are you are airborn and somewhere you dont want to be, upside down, off your sled, watching your wife get dragged down a hill by the radio connection, because the turn ahead sign was missing. My fault, she was in the lead, and the wiring to the radio was way too heavy duty.

Like I said before, ANY kind of warning is better than none, as far as this not being related to roads in any way, its related to roads in every way! Corner ahead, bump in road, rr xing, arrows left and right, even the STOP ahead sign, they all help with the safe flow of traffic.

We all ride blind as soon as were not up front and in snow dust conditions, should we take the warning signs away, I dont think so. Anyone that rides like a maniac, that aint going to change, take some of the signage away and we are ALL at more risk, screw that!

 

[Cat600]

Like I said before, ANY kind of warning is better than none, as far as this not being related to roads in any way, its related to roads in every way! Corner ahead, bump in road, rr xing, arrows left and right, even the STOP ahead sign, they all help with the safe flow of traffic.

We all ride blind as soon as were not up front and in snow dust conditions, should we take the warning signs away, I dont think so. Anyone that rides like a maniac, that aint going to change, take some of the signage away and we are ALL at more risk, screw that!

I agree with that.

I was also thinking for the people that know Michigan trails, ya they don't use signs because they know the trails, just like I know them around Wausau and I know how to get around (mostly).

But I don't know Michigan trails since I've only been up there once or twice. I don't know where the corners are or what hazards lay ahead. I'm not gonna be Johhny Speeder and go as fast as the sled will go. I'm gonna go as fast as I am comfortable with and would want to use the signs to my advantage and to avoid me or others being involved in a crash, especially out in the boondocks.

 

[xsledder]

Over 2 years ago I was appointed by the MDNR to serve on this VOLUNTARY Committee to look at Snowmobile and ORV Trail Signage. We had over 15 people from EVERY trail user group, DNR, and the USFS on this committee. We had members of the Michigan Snowmobile Association on this committee. We met 3 times in Roscommon. If you know where I live, this was quite a haul for a VOLUNTARY committee. Our meetings took most of the day as we went through each and EVERY single sign for Snowmobile Trails.
IT WAS NOT THE DNR that made the decision to eliminate many of the Snowmobile Trail Signs. It was HEAVILY supported by the Representatives of the MSA, and sign after sign was discussed and voted on.
After my first meeting I contacted the Snowmobile Clubs in the Western UP to hold a meeting, so I could get a 'feeling' as to how they stood on the issue.
GUESS WHAT? Few Snowmobile clubs attended the meeting and those that did, UNDERSTOOD the reasoning for this committee to meet. What really bothered me, as a volunteer, and NOT HAVING to call this meeting, I had many clubs that wouldn't even hav the courtesy to call me back to let me know what they thought.
Now, 2 years later, after the decision has been made, and NOW people are concerned.
In case you didn't notice, We have had snowmobile accidents and fatalities on our trails for years. While ONE fatality is ONE too many, signs didn't prevent the loss of fathers, brothers, mothers, sisters, and friends.
If you snowmobile in Canada, or snowmobile out West, you will find that few states have all the warning signs that Michigan has. Even in Wisconsin, the Snowmobile Signs are much smaller then those in Michigan. The ONLY consistancy in snowmobile signing from one state to another is the Orange Diamond Confidence Markers with the snowmobile trail number on them. Out west they use Alphabetical letters.
Do snowmobilers in Canada and out west complain that they don't have an arrow for every corner, a hill sign for every hill, a 'curvy arrow' sign for every trail that has corners?
As the representatives of the MSA told us at the committee meetings, we have a lot of snowmobilers that use all the signing to simply go faster then they should.
In regards to poor visibility, if you feel you cannot see the trail to ride SAFELY, why do you feel you can see the signs?
While I have had a 20 year issue with the DNR in regards to not specifically identifying the ORV Trails, like that of Snowmobile Trails, on this issue, the DNR is NOT TO BLAME.
If you want to blame someone, blame me for being a volunteer that was appointed to this committee. A committee that the DNR did NOT have to do, they could very easily have just made the decision with NO PUBLIC input.
So take your shots at me, NOT the DNR.

Okay, I will. It is great that your volunteered for this committee and thank you for your support of this sport. But, how many members of this committee were Professional Engineers licensed in the State of Michigan? When you went through the signs, did you refer to the "Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices" (MUTCD) published by the FHWA? Did your committee consult a Traffic Engineer with experience in marking shared-use paths? (Sorry, lawyers and law enforcement don't count.)

See, traffic control devices can only be placed by Professional Engineers with experience in Traffic Engineering. Law Enforcement, lawyers, or committees cannot place traffic control devices, only Professional Engineers (MUTCD Section 1A.09) All signs, or lack there of, should meet five basic requirements. 1. Fulfill a need. 2. Command attention. 3. Convey a clear and simple meaning. 4. Command respect from road users. 5. Give adequate time for proper response. (MUTCD Section 1A.02)

My argument is that it doesn't matter what the other States and Canada is doing because they have conditions unique to themselves. Nor does it matter that you ride slower when boondocking because you don't have signs. Again, that is a different situation unique to itself. However, riding a trail like the Bill Nicholes or any other groomed and marked trail that gives the rider a perception that they are driving in a situation like driving on a highway in a car, there is that expectation even if your riding a bike, ATV, UTV, a horse, or a low mower on that trail. That is where the committees decision is wrong.

All I need to do is get a good enough lawyer, prove that the signage at the location (even the lack thereof) was not done by a Professional Engineer, that there is a expectation based on the condition of the trail, and I'm set for life if I get hurt.

(John, are you rethinking your stance now?)

 

[xsledder]

John,

In my Professional Engineer's opinion I would say that people complaining about losing the signs is not losing a comfort but more or less losing a expectation. I would expect most curves on marked trails have a sign proceeding them just like you see on highways. You don't need to place a speed advisory with them.