teamarctic
New member
i should rephrase that. i hate talking face to face who smoke.
Michigan Smoking Ban
- Thread starter scott_b
- Start date
i should rephrase that. i hate talking face to face who smoke.
Sled in shop, trails closed, let's pick a fight!
Ok, so I am a business owner, and I truly believe the argument that has been put forth about let me decide my own business policies, smoking is legal, etc. is a good argument...it holds water. Unfortunately, it does not address the problem of smoking in public places.
The issue is that over the last 30 years smoking has become socially unacceptable. It is not a generally accepted behavior like it once was. You can't smoke in a bus, cab, train, plane, airport, office building, stadium, other people's houses, and other people's cars. You can no longer just sit down and light up...it is not socially acceptable. This is different than other socially unacceptable behaviors like running naked through the street, in that smoking is also a health risk to those that don't do it. If you ran naked past me in a bar it may be unacceptable, but it would not injure me, or the bartender, or the waitress. Smoking does present a health risk to the uninvolved. That is totally different than the health risk caused by activities like motorcycle and snowmobile riding, which is self induced. If I drive my sled fast into a tree that is my choice, my health risk, and it does not affect you in the sled next to me. Hence the government steps in with a public health reason to regulate the socially unacceptable behavior.
There is one exception to this socially unacceptable behavior, and that is bars. The arguments presented are "if you don't like my smoking, leave!" Bull crap! You and I paid the same price for the burger and the same price for the beer...why should I be the one to leave? Look at it this way, you and your wife are sitting at your favorite bar, cold beers, about to bite into that fish fry. My buddies and I walk in and sit next to you and start farting. We fart in your face, your hair, on your food, your clothes. Fart, fart, fart! Your dinner is ruined, your clothes reek of fart, your truck smells like fart, your hair smells like fart. But hey, farting is legal, if you don't like it leave the bar! No...my farting is socially unacceptable, I will get tossed out of the bar for doing it.
Smoking is unacceptable to 79% of US adults. That means in a group of 10 people 8 of them don't accept smoking. For right or for wrong, the governments have simply said that smokers, being the vast minority of adults, have to leave the premises. They have settled the argument of who has to leave the bar and they have sided with the majority.
It is heavy handed that the government had to do this with a legal product in a private business, but the decision is correct as to who has to leave the bar...and it's not me.
Ok, so I am a business owner, and I truly believe the argument that has been put forth about let me decide my own business policies, smoking is legal, etc. is a good argument...it holds water. Unfortunately, it does not address the problem of smoking in public places.
The issue is that over the last 30 years smoking has become socially unacceptable. It is not a generally accepted behavior like it once was. You can't smoke in a bus, cab, train, plane, airport, office building, stadium, other people's houses, and other people's cars. You can no longer just sit down and light up...it is not socially acceptable. This is different than other socially unacceptable behaviors like running naked through the street, in that smoking is also a health risk to those that don't do it. If you ran naked past me in a bar it may be unacceptable, but it would not injure me, or the bartender, or the waitress. Smoking does present a health risk to the uninvolved. That is totally different than the health risk caused by activities like motorcycle and snowmobile riding, which is self induced. If I drive my sled fast into a tree that is my choice, my health risk, and it does not affect you in the sled next to me. Hence the government steps in with a public health reason to regulate the socially unacceptable behavior.
There is one exception to this socially unacceptable behavior, and that is bars. The arguments presented are "if you don't like my smoking, leave!" Bull crap! You and I paid the same price for the burger and the same price for the beer...why should I be the one to leave? Look at it this way, you and your wife are sitting at your favorite bar, cold beers, about to bite into that fish fry. My buddies and I walk in and sit next to you and start farting. We fart in your face, your hair, on your food, your clothes. Fart, fart, fart! Your dinner is ruined, your clothes reek of fart, your truck smells like fart, your hair smells like fart. But hey, farting is legal, if you don't like it leave the bar! No...my farting is socially unacceptable, I will get tossed out of the bar for doing it.
Smoking is unacceptable to 79% of US adults. That means in a group of 10 people 8 of them don't accept smoking. For right or for wrong, the governments have simply said that smokers, being the vast minority of adults, have to leave the premises. They have settled the argument of who has to leave the bar and they have sided with the majority.
It is heavy handed that the government had to do this with a legal product in a private business, but the decision is correct as to who has to leave the bar...and it's not me.
dcsnomo.
If the business owner were allowed to decide, and then clearly post that smoking is allowed. All of those who are worried about either the smell or the health hazard would have the choice to leave or stay.
I am a smoker, and as I said, I do not smoke in bars,restaurants,vehicles, or my house and I prefer as well to not go to smokey places.
If the business owner were allowed to decide, and then clearly post that smoking is allowed. All of those who are worried about either the smell or the health hazard would have the choice to leave or stay.
I am a smoker, and as I said, I do not smoke in bars,restaurants,vehicles, or my house and I prefer as well to not go to smokey places.
Really?
Farting as a comparison? Really. I am 50 and still laugh.
And famouseguy sounds pretty level headed. I bet he quits smoking soon so he has many years ahead of him.
Pro
Farting as a comparison? Really. I am 50 and still laugh.
And famouseguy sounds pretty level headed. I bet he quits smoking soon so he has many years ahead of him.
Pro
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lenny
Guest
most of you guys here are living in fear of the gov. I hear the same old BS story, "the gov is taking away my freedoms." If you had some decency you wouldn't force people to make a decision of where to patronize on the basis of smoking. You even go so far as to say to employes "find a job in a smoke free bar" all at the expense of a horrible, addictive, health issue choice. That my friends is a poor way to exercise a freedom, to tell the next guy in a public place to go away if you don't like it. If it were not health related you would never see this happen so that there is a indicator of the motive
This has nothing to do with freedoms. It is just what you see it as, someone making a responsible decision because you cannot make it yourself. You wanna smoke, go outside where no one is effected by your bad decision and slowly kill yourself and not the guy next to you. I have left places because of smoke. Not because I think it is bad to smoke but because my body cannot tolerate it, I have to leave. Seat belts do save lives so instead of being critical of gov for using commonsense, look at it from the motive to put this ban into law. It may just be a bit of paranoia leading you. I do understand your fear and think your not far off base but to say this is another notch in Big Bro's belt to control us is a crock.
People, your only being told not to force others to suffer as a result of a poor decision to expose them to a health risk. Is it more reasonable to smoke outside and harm no one or to smoke inside and harm others? That's all this is guys, no more. It would never had come to this if the smoker hadn't created a health risk for bystanders. I see gov as out of control and not working for the people but I do not associate this ban in the same way as many of you do.
One more thing, I fully understand my post is harsh and I deliberately wrote it that way to illustrate a point. I believe your positions are equally as harsh and to combat it you need a equally harsh position. Nothing would ever happen if us non-smokers sat back quietly and said " family, where do you want to go tonight, you wanna go to mel's, no daddy, to smoky in there." You guys gotta be kidding to to think you are reasonable to tell someone to look for a job based on smoking. Or to tell people where to eat or drink based on smoking. Take the smoke outside and affect no one except your convenience, that is a much more reasonable exercise of freedom. Addicts often justify behavior and pass the blame to others, impose unreasonable limitations on others. That my friend is harsh and demands a re-thinking of a behavior.
Good job MI!!!! Thanks for looking out for the population, we sure don't do it for each other
This has nothing to do with freedoms. It is just what you see it as, someone making a responsible decision because you cannot make it yourself. You wanna smoke, go outside where no one is effected by your bad decision and slowly kill yourself and not the guy next to you. I have left places because of smoke. Not because I think it is bad to smoke but because my body cannot tolerate it, I have to leave. Seat belts do save lives so instead of being critical of gov for using commonsense, look at it from the motive to put this ban into law. It may just be a bit of paranoia leading you. I do understand your fear and think your not far off base but to say this is another notch in Big Bro's belt to control us is a crock.
People, your only being told not to force others to suffer as a result of a poor decision to expose them to a health risk. Is it more reasonable to smoke outside and harm no one or to smoke inside and harm others? That's all this is guys, no more. It would never had come to this if the smoker hadn't created a health risk for bystanders. I see gov as out of control and not working for the people but I do not associate this ban in the same way as many of you do.
One more thing, I fully understand my post is harsh and I deliberately wrote it that way to illustrate a point. I believe your positions are equally as harsh and to combat it you need a equally harsh position. Nothing would ever happen if us non-smokers sat back quietly and said " family, where do you want to go tonight, you wanna go to mel's, no daddy, to smoky in there." You guys gotta be kidding to to think you are reasonable to tell someone to look for a job based on smoking. Or to tell people where to eat or drink based on smoking. Take the smoke outside and affect no one except your convenience, that is a much more reasonable exercise of freedom. Addicts often justify behavior and pass the blame to others, impose unreasonable limitations on others. That my friend is harsh and demands a re-thinking of a behavior.
Good job MI!!!! Thanks for looking out for the population, we sure don't do it for each other
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lenny
Guest
How so?
You believe we all have the right to do anything we want?. Anything includes everything and you do not have the right to do something that affects my health. You do have the right and responsibility to be mindful of others and when we as a society fail to keep sight of each other the unfortunate event of big G doing it for you comes about. I do not believe it is the best way to handle a situation but were the smokers of our society going to willfully not burden non-smokers with their smoke, we both know the answer.
Could it possible NOT be the plan of Gov to strip us of all our freedoms. Most here see it as just that, the momentum gets rolling where big G takes more and more. That's what were talking about, right? Losing our freedoms? Since when is harming others a freedom we need to continue to support. The problem here is that we link reason with freedom. We have laws to protect people from many things. If we apply the general logic here to it's end than we ought not to have any laws to protect. I am not against smokers (the person) I have friends and family that smoke and I love them but the smoke is not good for the body. When it directly impacts another person who is not participating something needs to change. Now it's done. If this lost freedom benefits the mass than just maybe it's not a lost freedom but rather an improvement to the health of many. Personally, I think some people just don't like being told what to do from anyone, I know I don't, doesn't mean were right.
You have missed the point completely...[/QUOTE]
You believe we all have the right to do anything we want?. Anything includes everything and you do not have the right to do something that affects my health. You do have the right and responsibility to be mindful of others and when we as a society fail to keep sight of each other the unfortunate event of big G doing it for you comes about. I do not believe it is the best way to handle a situation but were the smokers of our society going to willfully not burden non-smokers with their smoke, we both know the answer.
Could it possible NOT be the plan of Gov to strip us of all our freedoms. Most here see it as just that, the momentum gets rolling where big G takes more and more. That's what were talking about, right? Losing our freedoms? Since when is harming others a freedom we need to continue to support. The problem here is that we link reason with freedom. We have laws to protect people from many things. If we apply the general logic here to it's end than we ought not to have any laws to protect. I am not against smokers (the person) I have friends and family that smoke and I love them but the smoke is not good for the body. When it directly impacts another person who is not participating something needs to change. Now it's done. If this lost freedom benefits the mass than just maybe it's not a lost freedom but rather an improvement to the health of many. Personally, I think some people just don't like being told what to do from anyone, I know I don't, doesn't mean were right.
You have missed the point completely...[/QUOTE]
Your are right Lenny.
How dare I suggest that the owner of a business make a decision on what he will or will not allow in or on his property. That would go against all that this country was founded on.
How dare I suggest that if someone does not like something that happens in a particular bar, that they just don't patronize that bar.
How dare I suggest that if an employee does not like something at his place of employment, then he should look elsewhere for employment.
I like your plan of socialism better.
How dare I suggest that the owner of a business make a decision on what he will or will not allow in or on his property. That would go against all that this country was founded on.
How dare I suggest that if someone does not like something that happens in a particular bar, that they just don't patronize that bar.
How dare I suggest that if an employee does not like something at his place of employment, then he should look elsewhere for employment.
I like your plan of socialism better.
So are you saying this is a good law because it forces all business to go smoke free and therefore "level" the playing field? This is the same socialist thinking that is taking away freedoms. Do you really want a socialist goverment. One that decides was is right and wrong for everyone? One that takes away the reward for succeeding and one that rewards for doing nothing? No socialist government has succeeded in this world. They have all failed. Be carefull of what you are asking for...you may get it.
[/QUOTE]
I think I get your point Lenny. So let's just stick with your point about being a health risk and being unhealthy for the body. I think the government should also pass a law banning all forms of unhealthy food and drink. Alcohol is bad for the body and is the cause for drinking and driving....make it illegal! Pop is unhealthy for the body and is proven to lead to diabetes and also lead to being over weight...which is a cause of rising health care..make it illegal! Junk food, twinkies, ho ho's, cookies, all candy, punch and all forms of fruit drinks, processed foods, this all leads to being over weight and unhealthy bodies...make it all illegal! We can go on and on. Your argument is your opinion because you do not like smoke and do not want to have to choose to leave an establishment or not because someone is smoking around you. The bottom line is this is taking away the owner's right to choose how to run their establishment. And this law has and will impact their income. Every bar and resturant in Ohio has seen a drop in business and profits from this law. It also cost the owners money in that they had to build covered areas outside for smokers to smoke.
Lenny, I do not smoke. I love that I can go to a resturant, bar, or any business and not have to breath smoke. I absolutely cannot stand it. But it is not the right of government to pass laws to govern how we as Americans live our lives and run our business's. You can argue all you want about the health risks and how it impact you. If this same logic is applied we can about outlaw everything we do in this country.
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lenny
Guest
600hoic, you selectively have taken my point out of context. I clearly have stated "when it affects the guy next to you." Were not talking about smoking here or eating unhealthy food but you have confirmed again that this all is a fear factor. You took the liberty to make the jump of saying I am referring to unhealthy habits. This is not that, it is an unhealthy habit directly impacting somebody else.
So when you jump aboard the ship of calling this Socialism make sure you know what you are talking about. You cannot take stuff out of context and apply it. If i were implying nobody should smoke because it is bad for you that YES, you would be right. That is not what I said, please go back and study my post and see if you can still honestly say that is what I am saying
I think I get your point Lenny. So let's just stick with your point about being a health risk and being unhealthy for the body. I think the government should also pass a law banning all forms of unhealthy food and drink. Alcohol is bad for the body and is the cause for drinking and driving....make it illegal! Pop is unhealthy for the body and is proven to lead to diabetes and also lead to being over weight...which is a cause of rising health care..make it illegal! Junk food, twinkies, ho ho's, cookies, all candy, punch and all forms of fruit drinks, processed foods, this all leads to being over weight and unhealthy bodies...make it all illegal! We can go on and on. Your argument is your opinion because you do not like smoke and do not want to have to choose to leave an establishment or not because someone is smoking around you. The bottom line is this is taking away the owner's right to choose how to run their establishment. And this law has and will impact their income. Every bar and resturant in Ohio has seen a drop in business and profits from this law. It also cost the owners money in that they had to build covered areas outside for smokers to smoke.
Lenny, I do not smoke. I love that I can go to a resturant, bar, or any business and not have to breath smoke. I absolutely cannot stand it. But it is not the right of government to pass laws to govern how we as Americans live our lives and run our business's. You can argue all you want about the health risks and how it impact you. If this same logic is applied we can about outlaw everything we do in this country.[/QUOTE]
So when you jump aboard the ship of calling this Socialism make sure you know what you are talking about. You cannot take stuff out of context and apply it. If i were implying nobody should smoke because it is bad for you that YES, you would be right. That is not what I said, please go back and study my post and see if you can still honestly say that is what I am saying
I think I get your point Lenny. So let's just stick with your point about being a health risk and being unhealthy for the body. I think the government should also pass a law banning all forms of unhealthy food and drink. Alcohol is bad for the body and is the cause for drinking and driving....make it illegal! Pop is unhealthy for the body and is proven to lead to diabetes and also lead to being over weight...which is a cause of rising health care..make it illegal! Junk food, twinkies, ho ho's, cookies, all candy, punch and all forms of fruit drinks, processed foods, this all leads to being over weight and unhealthy bodies...make it all illegal! We can go on and on. Your argument is your opinion because you do not like smoke and do not want to have to choose to leave an establishment or not because someone is smoking around you. The bottom line is this is taking away the owner's right to choose how to run their establishment. And this law has and will impact their income. Every bar and resturant in Ohio has seen a drop in business and profits from this law. It also cost the owners money in that they had to build covered areas outside for smokers to smoke.
Lenny, I do not smoke. I love that I can go to a resturant, bar, or any business and not have to breath smoke. I absolutely cannot stand it. But it is not the right of government to pass laws to govern how we as Americans live our lives and run our business's. You can argue all you want about the health risks and how it impact you. If this same logic is applied we can about outlaw everything we do in this country.[/QUOTE]
1-snowbullet
New member
WI> already has it going threw in the upper northeren half !! Or at least trying !! I agree it is up to the owner !! Bad thing is to make it worse the INSHURANCE CO. get involved if you allow smoking its higher than a none smoking establishments .. Acording to the Woodworking place I work for all the Puffers go to the corner and Smoke now !! They have gone as far as cheaper rates to none smokers for health inshurance !! Smoke free AMERICA Next is GUN'S AND Beer Just like in the 20's and 30"s Time repetes it self !! And what happend then Underground Brovels or booze joints ect .. Its Comming again Be ready !! My 5 cents worth !!
Coming from someone who is self employed and pays their own, overpriced health insurance; non-smokers should have lower health insurance costs. A lot of large companies are giving their employees pedometers outside of work. If you are more active, you pay less for your part of insurance costs. Great idea. I did laugh my a$$ off when a buddy who is an engineer came out to ride with a work supplied pedometer...
Lenny, the socialism comment was directed at the gentleman's comment that this law would level the playing field for business's, not to your view of this issue.
Also, my views are not fear based. I am voicing my concern of where this could be leading and trying to make others think about it. Lenny, how has your health been affected by breathing second hand smoke so far? How has this impacted your future health? How many days have been taken from your life so far? You do not know. You cannot answer. Your doctors cannot answer. All you or your doctor has is opininon.
Here is my point on this issue. In our wonderful country we have democracy. We have the right to voice opinion, form a petition, draft a bill, and put on ballot for the public to decide if it should become law. My concern is entirely about public opinion and the desire to pass laws because public opinion feels it is not right for issue "X" to exsist. We have a problem in this country. If we see, hear, or feel that the actions of other's is not to our likeing we instantly feel compelled to make it illegal. We tend to justify these feelings by putting the issue on the ballot and let the voters decide. Let the people speak, right? Some on here have brought up that 80% of the population do not smoke so we should make it illegal to smoke around me. Is 20% of the population going to kill the 80% from their second hand smoke? Lets continue with another issue very dear to all here. I bet less than 1% of the population rides snowmobiles. Do you feel they have the right to put together a petition to outlaw snowmobiles? Snowmobiles are loud, they are dangerous, they are a safety concern to automobile drivers, they cause pollution, they cut down trees and make paths to drive them, studs cause damage to driveways and public services like sidewalks and parkinglots, they impact wildlife, ect. Do you think the mass population has the right to petition and pass a law outlawing our hobby because they feel it be wrong?
Let me put my view of this issue another way to you because I know you will fall back on how someone else's smoking is impacting your health. Why do we need to pass a law making it illegal? Why can we not let the owner decide how to run their business? You have a right not to go into an establishment if they allow smoking. You have a right to voice your concern in a gentleman way to the owner. Tell them you are leaving because of the smoke. Tell them you will not return do to smoke. Then let them decide. If 80% of the non smoking people did this what do you think would happen? One would think if this happened that either the owner would not allow smoking to keep the business of the non-smokers or they would continue to allow smoking and see their profits fall drastically. I mean 80% of the population has just refused to do business with you. One would think profits would fall and force the owner out of business or choose to not allow smoking. Think of how many new business's would open seeing the financial gains to be made from 80% of the non-smoking public right?
Let me ask you...why make it illegal? Why force your will on someone else? Why not choose to not patrognize a smoking business?
Ive here your side. I see your issues. I wish you could see mine point. If you would voice you opinion and stand by it, change would happen. We wouldnt need a law preventing someone else their RIGHT to do something.
Also, my views are not fear based. I am voicing my concern of where this could be leading and trying to make others think about it. Lenny, how has your health been affected by breathing second hand smoke so far? How has this impacted your future health? How many days have been taken from your life so far? You do not know. You cannot answer. Your doctors cannot answer. All you or your doctor has is opininon.
Here is my point on this issue. In our wonderful country we have democracy. We have the right to voice opinion, form a petition, draft a bill, and put on ballot for the public to decide if it should become law. My concern is entirely about public opinion and the desire to pass laws because public opinion feels it is not right for issue "X" to exsist. We have a problem in this country. If we see, hear, or feel that the actions of other's is not to our likeing we instantly feel compelled to make it illegal. We tend to justify these feelings by putting the issue on the ballot and let the voters decide. Let the people speak, right? Some on here have brought up that 80% of the population do not smoke so we should make it illegal to smoke around me. Is 20% of the population going to kill the 80% from their second hand smoke? Lets continue with another issue very dear to all here. I bet less than 1% of the population rides snowmobiles. Do you feel they have the right to put together a petition to outlaw snowmobiles? Snowmobiles are loud, they are dangerous, they are a safety concern to automobile drivers, they cause pollution, they cut down trees and make paths to drive them, studs cause damage to driveways and public services like sidewalks and parkinglots, they impact wildlife, ect. Do you think the mass population has the right to petition and pass a law outlawing our hobby because they feel it be wrong?
Let me put my view of this issue another way to you because I know you will fall back on how someone else's smoking is impacting your health. Why do we need to pass a law making it illegal? Why can we not let the owner decide how to run their business? You have a right not to go into an establishment if they allow smoking. You have a right to voice your concern in a gentleman way to the owner. Tell them you are leaving because of the smoke. Tell them you will not return do to smoke. Then let them decide. If 80% of the non smoking people did this what do you think would happen? One would think if this happened that either the owner would not allow smoking to keep the business of the non-smokers or they would continue to allow smoking and see their profits fall drastically. I mean 80% of the population has just refused to do business with you. One would think profits would fall and force the owner out of business or choose to not allow smoking. Think of how many new business's would open seeing the financial gains to be made from 80% of the non-smoking public right?
Let me ask you...why make it illegal? Why force your will on someone else? Why not choose to not patrognize a smoking business?
Ive here your side. I see your issues. I wish you could see mine point. If you would voice you opinion and stand by it, change would happen. We wouldnt need a law preventing someone else their RIGHT to do something.
polarisrider1
New member
600hoic, about the snowmobile part, we have people trying to outlaw us all the time already. Maybe not such a good example.
600hoic...if I may, to your point, the democracy IS working on this issue. America has a representative democracy, that is, you elect representatives to vote for you. You do NOT get to vote on every issue, you vote on representatives.
80% of American adults DO NOT SMOKE. 80%! Our representatives have voted with the majority...80%/20% not to make smoking illegal, but to stop smokers from forcing their anti social behavior on the rest of us in public places.
There is no benefit to smoking.
People who smoke face a lifetime of addiction, most likely followed by a slow painful death.
People who are close to smokers must not only suffer from the smoke, but suffer greatly as their spouses, parents, children, and friends die painfully and early after a lifetime of smoking.
Yet, there s no benefit to smoking.
I no longer wish to participate in your addiction.
I no longer wish to participate in your slow, painful suicide ritual.
In a democracy, the rights of the majority compromise the rights of the minority. Therefore, you cannot smoke in places where non smokers (80% majority) will be affected.
The democracy has spoken.
Smoke outside
80% of American adults DO NOT SMOKE. 80%! Our representatives have voted with the majority...80%/20% not to make smoking illegal, but to stop smokers from forcing their anti social behavior on the rest of us in public places.
There is no benefit to smoking.
People who smoke face a lifetime of addiction, most likely followed by a slow painful death.
People who are close to smokers must not only suffer from the smoke, but suffer greatly as their spouses, parents, children, and friends die painfully and early after a lifetime of smoking.
Yet, there s no benefit to smoking.
I no longer wish to participate in your addiction.
I no longer wish to participate in your slow, painful suicide ritual.
In a democracy, the rights of the majority compromise the rights of the minority. Therefore, you cannot smoke in places where non smokers (80% majority) will be affected.
The democracy has spoken.
Smoke outside
That smoking is bad for you and people around you is a given. I think all of us know that. The bigger issue is, does the government have the right to tell you you can't allow it on your own property? Apparently now, they do. What's next? I don't care to think about it.
Personally, if there's something about an establishment that I don't like (prices, service, quality of food, too smoky, too noisy, type of clientele, cleanliness (or lack thereof), etc., I just simply don't patronize it. Period. What's so hard about that?
Personally, if there's something about an establishment that I don't like (prices, service, quality of food, too smoky, too noisy, type of clientele, cleanliness (or lack thereof), etc., I just simply don't patronize it. Period. What's so hard about that?
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lenny
Guest
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lenny
Guest
how do you delete a post?
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