Michigan Smoking Ban

[Admin]

Just one question.

For all those that think smoking is a RIGHT, please show me where in our Bill of Rights that one is.

-John

 

[lenny]

Lenny, the socialism comment was directed at the gentleman's comment that this law would level the playing field for business's, not to your view of this issue.

Also, my views are not fear based. I am voicing my concern of where this could be leading and trying to make others think about it. Lenny, how has your health been affected by breathing second hand smoke so far? How has this impacted your future health? How many days have been taken from your life so far? You do not know. You cannot answer. Your doctors cannot answer. All you or your doctor has is opininon.

Here is my point on this issue. In our wonderful country we have democracy. We have the right to voice opinion, form a petition, draft a bill, and put on ballot for the public to decide if it should become law. My concern is entirely about public opinion and the desire to pass laws because public opinion feels it is not right for issue "X" to exsist. We have a problem in this country. If we see, hear, or feel that the actions of other's is not to our likeing we instantly feel compelled to make it illegal. We tend to justify these feelings by putting the issue on the ballot and let the voters decide. Let the people speak, right? Some on here have brought up that 80% of the population do not smoke so we should make it illegal to smoke around me. Is 20% of the population going to kill the 80% from their second hand smoke? Lets continue with another issue very dear to all here. I bet less than 1% of the population rides snowmobiles. Do you feel they have the right to put together a petition to outlaw snowmobiles? Snowmobiles are loud, they are dangerous, they are a safety concern to automobile drivers, they cause pollution, they cut down trees and make paths to drive them, studs cause damage to driveways and public services like sidewalks and parkinglots, they impact wildlife, ect. Do you think the mass population has the right to petition and pass a law outlawing our hobby because they feel it be wrong?

Let me put my view of this issue another way to you because I know you will fall back on how someone else's smoking is impacting your health. Why do we need to pass a law making it illegal? Why can we not let the owner decide how to run their business? You have a right not to go into an establishment if they allow smoking. You have a right to voice your concern in a gentleman way to the owner. Tell them you are leaving because of the smoke. Tell them you will not return do to smoke. Then let them decide. If 80% of the non smoking people did this what do you think would happen? One would think if this happened that either the owner would not allow smoking to keep the business of the non-smokers or they would continue to allow smoking and see their profits fall drastically. I mean 80% of the population has just refused to do business with you. One would think profits would fall and force the owner out of business or choose to not allow smoking. Think of how many new business's would open seeing the financial gains to be made from 80% of the non-smoking public right?

Let me ask you...why make it illegal? Why force your will on someone else? Why not choose to not patrognize a smoking business?

Ive here your side. I see your issues. I wish you could see mine point. If you would voice you opinion and stand by it, change would happen. We wouldnt need a law preventing someone else their RIGHT to do something.

I first want to say thanks for engaging in this issue. This is important stuff and needs to be talked about, that we are doing. You said your not thinking on a fear based platform. Maybe "fear" has a negative connotation to it. I'm not trying to use it in a degrading way but more in a literal sense. Your very next sentence you said, and I quote "I am voicing my concern of where this could be leading and trying to make others think about it."

Concerned, fearful, scared,,,,, in this context we are referring to a similar thing. I do not think "fear" is the wrong way to put it. Either way you are speculating where it may or may not go.

You also say, and I quote " Lenny, how has your health been affected by breathing second hand smoke so far? How has this impacted your future health? How many days have been taken from your life so far? You do not know. You cannot answer. Your doctors cannot answer. All you or your doctor has is opinion"

Really now? I told you earlier, I cannot tolerate the smoke. This is not in my head, it is physical. I feel like a blanket is over my head. If I breath to much of it I will feel like I do a few days after the flue, weak, loss of energy. It also irritates my eyes. You cannot honestly expect me to believe it has no negative effects when I certainly feel them. Our body has lungs that sifts through this stuff. Do you think it is good for you to sit next to a fire and breath the smoke it produces, or next to a semi. These foreign things do not belong in our body. We decide to breath therm or not. Enough people understand the repercussions of inhaling smoke directly or indirectly. How you can say we don't know what the effects are is grossly exaggerated, no offense but almost laughable.

If we see, hear, or feel that the actions of other's is not to our likeing we instantly feel compelled to make it illegal.

That there is a huge jump because you base that statement on us "not knowing" the effects of smoke. I have many friends who smoke and most of them have health related issues, they either cough up crap, wind easier, they all want to stop, I wonder why they want to stop yet you say we have nothing but opinion to address this issue with. Do some people smoke all their life and live to 90 years old? sure! But you or I know them personally and understand their quality of life. The smokers I know have a lower quality of life and will admit it.

Gov implements many plans to benefit the majority of the population. When we build structures we follow codes to provide safety for it occupants. Are you having problems with this? Or have you accepted it because it was implemented before you were born just like myself. Insurance companies enforce safety precaution in work places to protect people from harm. Is this a problem?

Do you feel they have the right to put together a petition to outlaw snowmobiles? Snowmobiles are loud, they are dangerous, they are a safety concern to automobile drivers, they cause pollution, they cut down trees and make paths to drive them, studs cause damage to driveways and public services like sidewalks and parkinglots, they impact wildlife, ect. Do you think the mass population has the right to petition and pass a law outlawing our hobby because they feel it be wrong?

Again you are stretching far from the topic. You are first speculating and than making a false comparison. Motorcycles, snowmobile, ATVs, boats, go-carts, skiing, parachuting, etc,,,,,, all are individual decisions than can be made to not effect the guy next to you. You think most people care a rats arse if you smash your head against a tree and die. They don't, the ultra left whack jobs do and the don't represent the majority. Do we need to stay on top of the left whack jobs when they try an keep us out of areas we ride, sure we do but do you see them trying to outlaw all the activities I mentioned above? No we don't

Let me ask you...why make it illegal? Why force your will on someone else? Why not choose to not patrognize a smoking business?

You are referring to a public place. I have the same right as the smoker to patronize. Why should the guy who does not have a health issue, is harming no one, does not have the addiction in smoking have to leave or make a decision based on a poor habit. NO! The majority has spoken on the matter. The smoker will have to smoke elsewhere. This was a basic responsible decision made to protect people just as building codes, seat belts, steel toed boots in factories, etc,,,,

My question to you, why do you feel the need to see people go to GREAT lengths to patronize a place when a smoker can simply walk outside and do his thing. Problem solved! oh wait, the gov is taking your freedoms away, Dang-it! I cannot get over someone telling me to do something that benefits the majority of the population when they are in a public place.

Are you beginning to see my position better?

 

[rocketman356]

I swear 1/2 the local patrons in WI bars smoke there

Problem solved 4 yaa nicotine addicts!

 

[coldbear]

Smokin' cops..

In southwestern Ohio, the SC's have just about given up trying to enforce the ban. Most of the bars have an early warning system when big brother is in the area. I personaly do not smoke, but I knew that before I joined our local Moose 501.The membership was above 10,000 members[that's right] and the smoke abatement equipment was serviced monthly to keep the place clean for everyone. Once the law was passed there was 3500 members that said keep your beer ,ticket pulls and fellowship. This was upsetting to me untill I rolled in there one day months later to find just about everyone enjoying there cigs.The deal is it's cheaper to pay the CIG cops off than to lose the members. Many other bars are putting an empty beer can in front of the smoker for an ashtray. Makes it easier to destroy the evedience. It's simple...if you are going to serve the brews, allow the people to smoke in their designated areas. Just my two cents. If I was you, don't let this law get passed, as several bars have folded up since the ban. TOO MUCH government involvment to me.Now I've talked so much I'm thirsty.

 

[propjockey]

I've been an on again/ off again smoker for a long time. But I feel the difference between myself and most smokers, is that I am VERY conscientious about where I smoke and who I smoke around.

I've used it as a "crutch" in times of anxiety related to being self-employed, after tense discussions with my collection of ex-wives, while I'm drinking...etc.

I feel NO ONE should have to smell it.
I ALWAYS smoke away from others that don't.
I LOVE the indoor ban as I hate to smell like it also.
If it's a PUBLIC establishment regulated by the local government health department, it's their call, no one else's.
It's MY vice and if you don't like it, please tell me and I'll go somewhere else to do it.

I'm behind the non-smokers all the way. However, if you catch me smoking outside and have the nerve to shoot me a look of disgust or say something nasty to me about it, you'd better be on a nice, clean burning four-stroke or my 6' 5" 250# frame will be coming your way to "adjust" yer nose!

PEACE AND LOVE MY FELLOW RIDERS!

-J-

 

[600hoic]

No Lenny I do not. What I see is that you feel others must comply to your will. Why should a person who smokes have to go outside to smoke. Why not you go outside for fresh air.

You did not answer my question. Why not voice your concern to business owners and let them know you will not patrognize their business if they allow smokers? Why must there be a law? If 80% of the population were to do this what do you think would happen?

 

[russholio]

Dear Government,

Thank you for making me aware of the dangers of smoking and of second-hand smoke. You have done your duty and fulfilled your obligation. Now please be kind enough to let me make an informed decision as to whether I care to associate myself with those risks.

p.s. If you truly care that much about your citizens, then why not make smoking illegal? Is it because you've learned prohibition doesn't work? Or is it because if smoking were illegal, you'd lose the ability to regulate it and lose millions of dollars in tax revenue?

Love,
Russ

 

[lenny]

No Lenny I do not. What I see is that you feel others must comply to your will. Why should a person who smokes have to go outside to smoke. Why not you go outside for fresh air.

You did not answer my question. Why not voice your concern to business owners and let them know you will not patrognize their business if they allow smokers? Why must there be a law? If 80% of the population were to do this what do you think would happen?

.

You asked!

Why should a person who smokes have to go outside to smoke. Why not you go outside for fresh air.

It's considerate and respectful to be concerned for someone elses heath. Your position is " you don't like it, get out!" Do you always give people ultimatums when you yourself is the party doing the unhealthy activity. Do you watch your language when you are around young people or people you feel you may offend or do you say "F YOU! Go away and let me burden you with my behavior?" Sounds to me like you hold this attitude. You may or may not smoke but it's the principle that is more so concerning. Giving an ultimatum is not decency. You are asking for everything and giving nothing. People make up society and we need to work together to get along. Your solution is to load the burden on the innocent party and give the right to the offender ( choice words for conversation, not literal) . You have it completely backwards all for the sake of not being told what to do. Everybody seems to believe they have the right to do whatever they want with no circumstances. fact is we neglect to face our responsibilities at the expense of others.

It's simple, it's respectful, it's kind to take a harmful behavior outside so it has no impact on others. Our rep's have listened to the citizens and responded and we the majority have been heard.

You did not answer my question. Why not voice your concern to business owners and let them know you will not patrognize their business if they allow smokers? Why must there be a law? If 80% of the population were to do this what do you think would happen

I have done this on a different issue. I lived in a very small town with a general store. The store owner displayed his porn near the front door for all to see. My 12 yr old son from time to time would go in there. When I saw the porn I asked the owner very nicely if he could find a better location for it. He told me no, that it was just fine where it was. I never went back in that store again. He positioned the porn in a way to market it for profit. Bars are the same way. It is fun to socialize and hang out with your buds and smoking is part of that time. The bar owner would suffer if he asked his patrons to go away. He will loose money. Before ventilation, have you ever known of a bar that wasn't smokey. If it were up to me I probably would not have implemented this ban on bars because of the social connection. I would for sure ban it on all other public places. I might sound wishy washy but bars have always been like this and seems to me to be fitting to expect bars to have that element of atmosphere.

We have differing positions on this matter but lets not let it be divisive. I probably have been out of line in the heat of passion on this topic and may have offended you and for that I apologize. I do not apologize for my position and for the time being I do not have to go outside, so I win! Just kidding. I'll read your response if you have one but I am done with this. We did our best to communicate our position and that was a good. Thanks for the chat

Lenny

 

[lenny]

I've been an on again/ off again smoker for a long time. But I feel the difference between myself and most smokers, is that I am VERY conscientious about where I smoke and who I smoke around.

I've used it as a "crutch" in times of anxiety related to being self-employed, after tense discussions with my collection of ex-wives, while I'm drinking...etc.

I feel NO ONE should have to smell it.
I ALWAYS smoke away from others that don't.
I LOVE the indoor ban as I hate to smell like it also.
If it's a PUBLIC establishment regulated by the local government health department, it's their call, no one else's.
It's MY vice and if you don't like it, please tell me and I'll go somewhere else to do it.

I'm behind the non-smokers all the way. However, if you catch me smoking outside and have the nerve to shoot me a look of disgust or say something nasty to me about it, you'd better be on a nice, clean burning four-stroke or my 6' 5" 250# frame will be coming your way to "adjust" yer nose!

PEACE AND LOVE MY FELLOW RIDERS!

-J-

You my friend are totally responsible and decent with smoking. Most smokers I know are pretty good about how the impact the other guy. Occasionally there is that one who doesn't give a rats arse but they are rare. Thanks for being a good example

 

[600hoic]

Lenny I am done too and you did not offend me. I think we both agree to disagree but if we were to meet on the trail, after riding, I would buy you a drink of your choice. And I am a person of good morals and behavior and agree with you on the issue of decency and curtisy to others, especially children. I do not smoke and enjoy the ban here in Ohio. I just have feelings against it. Take care.

 

[jonesin]

Well said!

 

[qber]

Smoking ban

Heard all the same thing in Illinois before the smoking ban. That it was the work of communists, socialists or whatever. That gets old.
I'm not a regular smoker, but do bum cigarettes more than once in a while and the ban put a little crimp on that. The bar owner in our town who was the most outspoken and led the opposition to the ban, has had a good increase in business since the ban and now she likes it.
Everyone takes a break outside to smoke and nobody seems to mind it- just something different. If it were 40 below down here and having to go outside, probably would hear some grumbling.
Ted