More ethanol woes

snowlover2

New member
Be aware. When I drained the "summer" gas out of my '06 Polaris I discovered the rubber fuel line inside the gas tank had deteriorated. What a mess! My dealer says ethanol in our gasoline is "eating" away at our fuel systems. I hate to admit it but it took me by surprise as I never heard of this before. And I always buy no-ethanol premium unless it's not available. Caused me to miss our annual New Year's trip!
 

snocrazy

Active member
I dont understand why ethanol is allowed in gas. It is criminal. This is their way of destroying the old non epa spec meeting equipment. Send the bill to the the jags who decided this was a good idea.
 

anonomoose

New member
It is almost CERTAINLY NOT ethanol that is doing that. Get your manual out and read it...10% ethanol is okay and has been for a decade or longer.

More likely it is the additives such as Stable or Sea Foam, and others which WILL beat up on some fuel lines and gaskets. If you put fuel stabilizer, carb/jet cleaner STP fuel treatment...be sure you run it out of the tank before laying up for extended periods.
 

snocrazy

Active member
It is almost CERTAINLY NOT ethanol that is doing that. Get your manual out and read it...10% ethanol is okay and has been for a decade or longer.

More likely it is the additives such as Stable or Sea Foam, and others which WILL beat up on some fuel lines and gaskets. If you put fuel stabilizer, carb/jet cleaner STP fuel treatment...be sure you run it out of the tank before laying up for extended periods.

So todays gas wont do it? I have a friend with some old artic cat. His gas cap threads broke off of the tank. He found a rubber bung plug that fit perfectly. It was rated for gas. The rubber vanished over the summer storage. ( April to December) This is at the top of the tank. Any idea what can cause that?

I have a good friend who is a small engine mechanic and tells me the horror stories related to gas. How fast it goes bad. The damage it causes. You hear about it and read it in all over the internet. Are people just brain washed or some thing?

I'm not claiming to be an expert by any means. From what I have heard, it causes these issues.
 

eao

Active member
<dir>Small engines and power sports equipment are typically used on an intermittent basis so fuel sits in the tank, lines, carburetors and injectors for extended periods between uses. During this time, it absorbs water, degrades and causes deposit formation. This results in starting and performance issues. Passenger cars and light trucks, on the other hand, are used more frequently, which limits the amount of time the fuel sits unused.



</dir>
 

raceinsnow

New member
The Polaris sleds have a problem with the fuel tank pick up hose. It is because of the ethanol and additives in the fuel but the hose they use is junk.
 

anonomoose

New member
So todays gas wont do it? I have a friend with some old artic cat. His gas cap threads broke off of the tank. He found a rubber bung plug that fit perfectly. It was rated for gas. The rubber vanished over the summer storage. ( April to December) This is at the top of the tank. Any idea what can cause that?

I have a good friend who is a small engine mechanic and tells me the horror stories related to gas. How fast it goes bad. The damage it causes. You hear about it and read it in all over the internet. Are people just brain washed or some thing?

I'm not claiming to be an expert by any means. From what I have heard, it causes these issues.

Many rubber gaskets and gas lines were not approved with the use of alcohol which is a sort of natural solvent. There are far more solvents in STP fuel treatments which are designed to be run thru but not stored inside the gas tanks and fuel lines of machines for longer periods because the whole point of using them is to loosen and remove deposits and varnishes and carbon that has built up over time. They work well because this is exactly why they were made. But rubber gas lines were not common early on, as metal was used and pretty much safe from use of solvents...but it did eat some gaskets and did so often. Eventually the makers of mechanical equipment switched to gaskets that would not deteriorate and made them safe from use with alcohol.

Your gas tank in your truck/car is constantly bathed in alcohol even if you are using it or not, yet the lines and gaskets don't degrade. Simply because you use it more, doesn't mean there is no alcohol in there...you simply run it thru the machines more frequently....but if alcohol was the culprit your mechanic says it is, then stuff would be breaking down all over the place. We know that isn't the case. The equipment was designed for the use of alcohol and is impervious to the natural solvents that it contains.

It is popular to bash alcohol for this process but the truth is alcohol has been around and used in fuel delivery systems for decades (remember Standard Oil Company and their well advertised "de-icer" additive that you got in every gallon of their fuel?) Alcohol would mix the moisture that develops in all gas tanks and absorb it into the gas so it could be burned in the engine, rather than fuel without it that could form ice blocks in the metal fuel lines that could and did block the fuel and starve an engine during a cold snap.

The REAL issue today is supply of cheap products to be integrated into building machines that have fuel lines and gaskets that have not been improved over the alcohol and other additives that will eat the rubber up. When you do that, you will find that though the fuel line was cheaper to the supplier, such as Polaris and Cat and others, they won't stand up to the use of alcohol and other additives. If you replace this inferior product with good old American made but more expensive fuel line, you will find that this does not happen.

Alcohol does seem to degrade faster over time than 100% gasoline but both degrade and there are fuel additives that you can buy (such as STABIL) that does NOT eat the made for alcohol gaskets and fuel lines and keeps the fuel good for a long time. But remember that if you leave fuel in your snow blower over the summer, even before alcohol was present, it would varnish up and smell really badly and would require a carb over-haul to get working again. Draining the carb completely would avoid this problem.

I could go on about how every gallon of gasoline that has the 93% cleaner burning alcohol and higher octane in it is saving 10% of our importation of crude from countries that want us dead, and that American Farmers grow the corn that makes this fuel and then returns the profits from the alcohol production back into tractors, combines, and pole barns made and built by Americans....but I will leave that for another discussion.
 
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anonomoose

New member
The Polaris sleds have a problem with the fuel tank pick up hose. It is because of the ethanol and additives in the fuel but the hose they use is junk.
EXACTLY....and Cat used the cheaper fuel lines too...and I have replaced them with good quality fuel lines which are NOT degrading.
 

snowlover2

New member
I guess I should blame the fuel lines or maybe Polaris for my problem. Like I said in the original post - just be aware that a problem may exist if you have an older sled, especially a Polaris. I bought the '06 brand new. At the end of each season I fill the tank completely and add Sta-Bil. (During the snow season I have used Star Tron.) I start the sleds every month and run them until they're hot. I know everyone has their own system but this is what I've been doing for years and it has always worked for me. Just before the first ride of each new season I completely drain the tank and add fresh fuel. That's when I discovered the fuel line had disintegrated into many pieces. I was surprised.
 

snake

Member
i had the exact same thing happen on my 06 poo. BE AWARE=if you replace the lines and not the whole assembly,you need to use hose that is designed to be submerged in fuel=most fuel hose that you buy at auto parts stores are only fuel and alcohol resistant on the inside!! if you use this type you will be back to square one where you are now!I actually went to a yamaha dealer and found the correct stuff and put together with oeticker clamps
 

anonomoose

New member
I guess I should blame the fuel lines or maybe Polaris for my problem. Like I said in the original post - just be aware that a problem may exist if you have an older sled, especially a Polaris. I bought the '06 brand new. At the end of each season I fill the tank completely and add Sta-Bil. (During the snow season I have used Star Tron.) I start the sleds every month and run them until they're hot. I know everyone has their own system but this is what I've been doing for years and it has always worked for me. Just before the first ride of each new season I completely drain the tank and add fresh fuel. That's when I discovered the fuel line had disintegrated into many pieces. I was surprised.

This exterior deterioration may very well be an industry wide problem and perhaps they are working on this now, or have gotten to the bottom of it already. When you think all the things that store gasoline not many have a loose hose made of rubber bouncing around in the bottom of the tank. This might very well be a maintenance item we snowmobilers have ignored up until now, I don't know. But I am sure that this issue of lines going bad has been going on since at least 2002 and is still happening. Perhaps we have to run the fuel out of the machines and completely drain the tank each year. That would be a major pain, but it may be the only way to avoid this issue....I should know, I have replaced those lines myself.

I do know that Sta-Bil has an alcohol formula now and perhaps using the old stabil contributed to the problem...sounds like it was. But adding all the other things to the tank to keep the machine running smooth may also create the problem...so it would be hard to lay this all at the door step of ethanol blended gasoline.
 
I always use non-ethanol in my snowmobiles, boats, quads and yard tools. Unfortunately, there are less and less places selling non-ethanol, especially regular grade. We are down to one place in Eagle River that has non-ethanol regular which is the D&S Mobile. Pauls Pump and Pantry stopped selling gas over the summer but still called "pump" and pantry...strange. I am always going into town with 30 gallons of gas cans and filling them up plus I aways add stabil or seafoam. Never a fuel related issue until this year. My 2010 Grand Touring won't idle and I was told clogged pilot jets from bad gas. If I have to fill up on the trail, I always try to locate non-ethanol premium but even that is getting hard to find. All my buddies that just gas and go with whatever gas they can find and use no additives are always having problems.
 

snowlover2

New member
I always use non-ethanol in my snowmobiles, boats, quads and yard tools. Unfortunately, there are less and less places selling non-ethanol, especially regular grade. We are down to one place in Eagle River that has non-ethanol regular which is the D&S Mobile. Pauls Pump and Pantry stopped selling gas over the summer but still called "pump" and pantry...strange. I am always going into town with 30 gallons of gas cans and filling them up plus I aways add stabil or seafoam. Never a fuel related issue until this year. My 2010 Grand Touring won't idle and I was told clogged pilot jets from bad gas. If I have to fill up on the trail, I always try to locate non-ethanol premium but even that is getting hard to find. All my buddies that just gas and go with whatever gas they can find and use no additives are always having problems.

I hear you! You would think Eagle River of all places would have more than one station selling no-ethanol. I filled up at D&S last year when I was in town because I read somewhere that they had no-eth. I've been spying out gas stations. Minocqua Shell south of the bridge, BP in Lando, and Cracker Barrel in Tomahawk all sell no-ethanol premium and I'd like to know what other stations in the Northwoods do. Hook me up if anyone knows! I also carry Star Tron in my bag.
 
G

G

Guest
Before there was ethanol gas the only thing you ever had to ad was gas line antifreeze. You could leave machines sit for years with regular gas in them and they would start right up and run just fine. I wish I would have bought stock in StaBil and Seafoam when they first came out with ethanol gas. If you don't keep after ethanol gas with additives sooner or later you are going to have expensive problems whether the machine you are using was designed to run on it or not. It has a very short shelf life - like about a month. It is simply not the same product as good old non-oxy regular. It is inferior in just about every way.
 

doodad

New member
Before there was ethanol gas the only thing you ever had to ad was gas line antifreeze. You could leave machines sit for years with regular gas in them and they would start right up and run just fine. I wish I would have bought stock in StaBil and Seafoam when they first came out with ethanol gas. If you don't keep after ethanol gas with additives sooner or later you are going to have expensive problems whether the machine you are using was designed to run on it or not. It has a very short shelf life - like about a month. It is simply not the same product as good old non-oxy regular. It is inferior in just about every way.

You Sir, are absolutely correct.
Look at this short clip on "phase separation",... although he is using an automobile for reference, it will be the same outcome with your sled.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rO3x5o0W7-M
 
G

G

Guest
In addition it costs more to produce corn ethanol than the power you get out of it. In addition it takes 8 gallons of fresh water to produce one gallon of corn ethanol. In addition the US govt gives a lot of money away to countries like Afganistan and Africa that dont even sell us oil. They sell us things like heroin and never ending famine. Corn ethanol was made possible by the tye breaking vote of ALGORE who you may remember also invented the internet. Now that we are faced with a drought in the entire corn growing and wheat growing region of the continental US go ahead and make your case for skimming off a bunch of corn to make inferior gas. We will all be paying more for groceries very soon. The Arab Shieks will still be rich and the Africans will be still be starving. The only thing that will change is that Americans will pay more to live as they are used to. We are ruled by idiots. Sorry John, Delete if needed. Ethanol sucks.
 

Iowa Rider

Member
Many rubber gaskets and gas lines were not approved with the use of alcohol which is a sort of natural solvent. There are far more solvents in STP fuel treatments which are designed to be run thru but not stored inside the gas tanks and fuel lines of machines for longer periods because the whole point of using them is to loosen and remove deposits and varnishes and carbon that has built up over time. They work well because this is exactly why they were made. But rubber gas lines were not common early on, as metal was used and pretty much safe from use of solvents...but it did eat some gaskets and did so often. Eventually the makers of mechanical equipment switched to gaskets that would not deteriorate and made them safe from use with alcohol.

Your gas tank in your truck/car is constantly bathed in alcohol even if you are using it or not, yet the lines and gaskets don't degrade. Simply because you use it more, doesn't mean there is no alcohol in there...you simply run it thru the machines more frequently....but if alcohol was the culprit your mechanic says it is, then stuff would be breaking down all over the place. We know that isn't the case. The equipment was designed for the use of alcohol and is impervious to the natural solvents that it contains.

It is popular to bash alcohol for this process but the truth is alcohol has been around and used in fuel delivery systems for decades (remember Standard Oil Company and their well advertised "de-icer" additive that you got in every gallon of their fuel?) Alcohol would mix the moisture that develops in all gas tanks and absorb it into the gas so it could be burned in the engine, rather than fuel without it that could form ice blocks in the metal fuel lines that could and did block the fuel and starve an engine during a cold snap.

The REAL issue today is supply of cheap products to be integrated into building machines that have fuel lines and gaskets that have not been improved over the alcohol and other additives that will eat the rubber up. When you do that, you will find that though the fuel line was cheaper to the supplier, such as Polaris and Cat and others, they won't stand up to the use of alcohol and other additives. If you replace this inferior product with good old American made but more expensive fuel line, you will find that this does not happen.

Alcohol does seem to degrade faster over time than 100% gasoline but both degrade and there are fuel additives that you can buy (such as STABIL) that does NOT eat the made for alcohol gaskets and fuel lines and keeps the fuel good for a long time. But remember that if you leave fuel in your snow blower over the summer, even before alcohol was present, it would varnish up and smell really badly and would require a carb over-haul to get working again. Draining the carb completely would avoid this problem.

I could go on about how every gallon of gasoline that has the 93% cleaner burning alcohol and higher octane in it is saving 10% of our importation of crude from countries that want us dead, and that American Farmers grow the corn that makes this fuel and then returns the profits from the alcohol production back into tractors, combines, and pole barns made and built by Americans....but I will leave that for another discussion.

I have used E-10 in absolutely every thing I own Since it came out and have Zero problems! I couldn't agree with you more!!!
 
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