More ethanol woes

[anonomoose]

Moose, we're not talking about fuel injected cars and sleds. We are talking about the affects it has on carbs! Please listen my friend, you're totally missing the points these customers are trying to make. Not only that, new vehicles were designed to run off of ethanol. Now come on, I know you're smarter than you're leading on here. Fuel injected vehicles of any kind handle the ethanol much better and can sit with ethanol without issues. Doodad, good job. Also Moose, if it infact degrades quicker like you say it does then the octane is infact weaker and it is a poorer product! Wow, I can't take this anymore. I'm out people. Please listen to the Moose, we need business bad and his advice will bring it with the more force than salmon swimming upstream! LOL!

Oh, so what you are saying is that IF the maker of the machine used quality parts, and stuff that was MADE for use with Alcohol, then it is okay?

But wait, since half the stuff I own is not fuel injected, hows come I don't need to tear it down every year to fix it?

I rode my bike twice last year because it was just too hot to ride comfortably and I won't ride and sweat! 4 carbs...years of use with alcohol....what did Honda do back in 1986 when it was made? What about my 1973 350cl...runs like a top!

Neglect anything and it will need work! Take care of your stuff, and it won't matter what fuel you use.

I only use a fuel stabilizer when I know that I won't be running something for 8 or 10 months or more otherwise it is pointless. I have used cruise cans with alcohol fuels and they last for several years before running rough, and even then I can mix it with fresh and use it. It all goes bad in time doesn't it?

For every guy that grouses about Alcohol in the gas, there is 50 using it with no issues. Neglect it like your snow-blower and as in years ago, you will rebuild the carb and clean the gas tank out.....lots of bikes I have restored from the late 60's and early 70's....all needed 'work' and were put away with 100% gasoline that varnished up and made the job a tough one.

What we are talking about here is folks who don't take care of their stuff and then take it to the dealer to fix. And stuff that was poorly made with rubber not intended to be used with alcohol or any other additive for that matter and they have issues, which the dealer is only too happy to lay at the feet of ethanol fuels. It simply could NOT be that their equipment that they sell and service isn't ready for prime time! So lay it off on alcohol in the fuels.

It's a bum wrap and though I have NO doubt that some here really believe it to be BAD FUEL, there are an equal number that still believe in the Easter Bunny too....what can I say?

It is pointless to flog this one any longer, so let's just agree to disagree and move on to where is all the snow....perhaps it's the fault of ethanol too???

 

[kip]

You're right Moose, you're a pro at whatever you do, I'm sure, just ask yourself. Actually my kids believe in the Easter Bunny and I think that's a good thing. Keep the dream alive

 

[chad66]

I only have one question. Moose, do you believe in global warming?!


Chad@M&M

 

[heckler56]

Oh, so what you are saying is that IF the maker of the machine used quality parts, and stuff that was MADE for use with Alcohol, then it is okay?

But wait, since half the stuff I own is not fuel injected, hows come I don't need to tear it down every year to fix it?

I rode my bike twice last year because it was just too hot to ride comfortably and I won't ride and sweat! 4 carbs...years of use with alcohol....what did Honda do back in 1986 when it was made? What about my 1973 350cl...runs like a top!

Neglect anything and it will need work! Take care of your stuff, and it won't matter what fuel you use.

I only use a fuel stabilizer when I know that I won't be running something for 8 or 10 months or more otherwise it is pointless. I have used cruise cans with alcohol fuels and they last for several years before running rough, and even then I can mix it with fresh and use it. It all goes bad in time doesn't it?

For every guy that grouses about Alcohol in the gas, there is 50 using it with no issues. Neglect it like your snow-blower and as in years ago, you will rebuild the carb and clean the gas tank out.....lots of bikes I have restored from the late 60's and early 70's....all needed 'work' and were put away with 100% gasoline that varnished up and made the job a tough one.

What we are talking about here is folks who don't take care of their stuff and then take it to the dealer to fix. And stuff that was poorly made with rubber not intended to be used with alcohol or any other additive for that matter and they have issues, which the dealer is only too happy to lay at the feet of ethanol fuels. It simply could NOT be that their equipment that they sell and service isn't ready for prime time! So lay it off on alcohol in the fuels.

It's a bum wrap and though I have NO doubt that some here really believe it to be BAD FUEL, there are an equal number that still believe in the Easter Bunny too....what can I say?

It is pointless to flog this one any longer, so let's just agree to disagree and move on to where is all the snow....perhaps it's the fault of ethanol too???

You are having luck because your engines are older carbed equipment. Most sound as though they have bigger orifices which can handle the residue created as the alcohol evaporates. The newer carb's are regulated to be fixed and the residue gel I spoke of (as did many of these mechanics), cannot push the stuff thru.

 

[MZEMS2]

I've never had a problem with Ethanol either, BUT, I'm very proactive in the proper treatment of fuel that is going to sit for a while. Fuel that sits for an off-season, gets drained or syphoned before the first start-up the next year, no matter if it's a summer engine, or a winter engine, when it comes time to start using again. I use the marine grade stabil too. When possible, I use the premium, non-ethanol fuel we have right down the street. BUT, I still treat it as if it has ethanol in it, why?, because.....it likely does. Keep in mind, the guy that pumped right before you, most likely pumped 87 octane with ethanol, fuel in his car. There's gonna be some of that fuel in the pump and hose, that's gonna go in your tank or gas can. So, I can honestly say that I have no issues, BECAUSE I take a proactive approach to ethanol. I'm not gonna risk it. The last tank of the season gets treated with Stabil, the first tank of the season gets treated with Seafoam....on every small engine, or seasonal engine I own. Never once have I had a problem.

 

[fusion]

If you are defending ethanol it's because you either don't use it in equipment with carburetors...
you are a farmer that benefits from the government subsidies provided because the product can't stand on it's own in competition with non-reformulated fuels... or
you just don't care enough to actually evaluate the performance difference between the 2 fuels.
Ask yourself this question - if it were so great of a product, why not let ethanol stand in direct competition with regular fuel, at the pump?
No subsidies, let the cost difference in production manifest itself in price at the pump. Price will be higher for ethanol because it costs more to make.
But nobody would buy it anyway, even if it were the same price and you always had a choice.
Sorry, but if you actually think ethanol is on-par in terms of quality and performance with non-reformulated gas, and it doesn't cause problems with carb'd motors, there's some serious intelligence issues to deal with. (Unless of course you're not being honest)

 

[kip]

Alumadoo and Fusion, well spoken. Nice to know there are people that can speak intelligently about a subject and offer what's important to the people that are having issues because that's what it's about, helping people. Also one other thing I wanted to mention (moose). That's why the manufacturer's are putting higher quality components such as fuel line which is to made to withstand what? Yes, ethanol. You answered that one yourself and you don't even know it. Which is infact another reason we are paying more for our products. All around it only costs the consumer and the manufacturer more money and that's simple math. If I'm a farmer I'm loving it and that's a good thing, they need to prosper like any other business does and I'm just happy for them as at least someone other than politicians are benefiting!!! Pray for snow!!!

 

[lvr1000]

STICK a fork in it! Since we have beat this to death, I thought I'd bring up B20 Diesel. My manual for my new truck says that B20 should not sit in the tank for more than 30 days. The results WILL NOT be covered under warranty.

 

[anonomoose]

If you are defending ethanol it's because you either don't use it in equipment with carburetors...

If you read the whole thread, you know that I have used ethanol in everything I own, and others have also confirmed they have had no issues either so just to rehash for you here you go:

1950 4 cylinder Ford Tractor to mow my lawn
2007 Honda push mower a one pull start mower
2009 Honda ATV
2005 Kaw ATV
1970's Honda 3 wheeler
1973 Honda 350
1987 Honda Super Magna (4 carbs)
2 pickup trucks
1 buick
3 year old weed whacker
3 chainsaws (Stihl,Mac,Polan)
6 outboard motors
2 generators
1 snowblower
1 chop saw
And probably 4 more I can't think of at the moment.

Ask me how many have acted up or got clogged by GREEN GOOP? Shouldn't I have had at least some issues with some of these if the dreaded green goo is prevalent?

Ask me how many I drain the carbs on before putting them away...some but, try doing that with the weed whacker or chainsaws!

I don't know where you can even buy fuels in Michigan that are 100% reformulated Gasoline.

Everything I buy has at least 10% alcohol in it.

...you are a farmer....

I do a nice garden most years...does that qualify me? You decide! I don't even have any farmer relatives!

... or you just don't care enough to actually evaluate the performance difference between the 2 fuels....

I don't test equipment, I use it when I need it and put them away afterwords ....is that the evaluation you speak of? My experience is that it has not changed the way I use my equipment, store it, or buy gasoline. I use plastic gas cans rather than the old metal ones I used to own...because the metal ones didn't work as well as the plastic...other than that...everything the same over YEARS of use.

... why not let ethanol stand in direct competition with regular fuel, at the pump?....

Right back at you....if Ethanol was SOOOOO bad and SOOO expensive, why is it that the gasoline companies blend it as much as possible into the fuels they sell every day? Do the math my friend....2.7 gallons of fuel from a bushel of corn, and the leavings get delivered to farmers to feed live stock.


A barrel of crude costs $93 right now! A bushel of corn costs maybe $7.....we subsidize the heck out of crude oil too with the same basic processes that we do for ethanol production (it is called depletion allowances), so there is no major difference and we ARE letting it stand alone at the pump...which is why most folks use it except for a few who buy into the idea that it is all bad stuff.....or it cost more to make than they get for it, or it uses 20 gallons of water to make, or we are starving the world to make ethanol....the list is long and hardly worth repeating.

...Sorry, but if you actually think ethanol is on-par in terms of quality and performance with non-reformulated gas, and it doesn't cause problems with carb'd motors, there's some serious intelligence issues to deal with. (Unless of course you're not being honest)

Quality, of course it is....performance, slightly less as most folks already know, and as far as causing carb issues...well, I haven't seen them and frankly since 90% of the population uses "corn fuel" in everything they own, the dealers that sell all the small equipment would be overwhelmed with green sludge...with lines out the door....seems that isn't happening as some on here are clamoring for more business. Who is getting this green slim??? I can't tell you, but I am guessing that they are using all sorts of additives to juice the mix or leaving the fuel sit in tanks for months in black covered trailers in 100 degree temperatures where the stuff cooks hot enough to boil eggs(We did just get thru the hottest year on record), and have you ever seen how contractors treat their equipment...bouncing down the road in the back of a truck, sitting out in direct sunlight for the thing to get so hot you can't touch it do yah think that might cause problems???....and I don't care what you use you are going to plug jets and gel fuels. Probably some of the 2 cycle mix isn't fairing well in the fuels either....but in order to pass judgement you have to take a scientific approach to figure out what is causing it, and so far NOT ONE dealer or owner has given any suggestion that they would actually do any of that to figure out what is causing it, other than....BLAME THE ALCOHOL...and let it go at that. It is very popular and the oil companies appreciate every ounce you can spread.

As for my honesty! Too a fault!

 

[eao]

Gas stations in Michigan are not required to label E10 dispensing pumps, but are required to label higher ethanol gasoline blends such as E85.

 

[lenny]

Hey Moose, are you sure you are running eth blend in all these engines. Maybe the station has premium eth free that you run. Fuel injected motors have computer that adjusts fuel air ratio instead of mechanical parts moving with a set ratio. So the FI engine will run and not show much of a symptom. Cars also have a much larger orifice and many less mechanical parts subject to corrosion and gunk than smaller engines. On the throttle bodied injection which is most vehicles the injector itself is the smallest orifice but they are constantly pumping a spray of fuel under a pressure unlike a carb that has a float to stop the flow of fuel till the bowl is low with induction and accelerator pump moving the fuel after the float.

I tell you the truth, every single piece of equipment I own except cars have been severely effected by the eth fuel until 2 weeks ago when I experienced phase separation in eth blend in my plow truck. Maybe you are very thorough in treating sitting engines and that has contributed to your lack of problems but I would suspect there is something you are not telling us,,with all due respect my friend, I hope you are being honest and all politics aside. In reality, it is weird that gas and politics are related,,what aint these days as gov increases it's size, everybody has an interest!

 

[timo]

Moos may have had one to many to drink.

stating ethanol gas doesn't do damage to small engines is like stating water isn't wet.

I can't tell you how many people I have known or met in the auto-small motor-power sports industry and not one. NOT ONE! said ethanol was better at anything for your engine than non ethanol. NOT ONE!!!!!!!!!!

Guys, thanks for stepping up on this one. Really needed the support on this one

 

[timo]

I think he's selling something besides corn.

Moose? Are you selling corn to the Ethanol Refinery by any chance?

Just wondering.........

 

[snocrazy]

Just pulled a 74 Johnson Phantom 35 that has been in the back of a shed for 7 years plus. Last sticker was 1996 (10$ by the way)
Took the carb off and went through it.
I did not even attempt to start the thing before cleaning the fuel system out.
Good thing I did.... Any one need paint remover?

 

[anonomoose]

Hey Moose, are you sure you are running eth blend in all these engines. Maybe the station has premium eth free that you run. Fuel injected motors have computer that adjusts fuel air ratio instead of mechanical parts moving with a set ratio. So the FI engine will run and not show much of a symptom. Cars also have a much larger orifice and many less mechanical parts subject to corrosion and gunk than smaller engines. On the throttle bodied injection which is most vehicles the injector itself is the smallest orifice but they are constantly pumping a spray of fuel under a pressure unlike a carb that has a float to stop the flow of fuel till the bowl is low with induction and accelerator pump moving the fuel after the float.

I tell you the truth, every single piece of equipment I own except cars have been severely effected by the eth fuel until 2 weeks ago when I experienced phase separation in eth blend in my plow truck. Maybe you are very thorough in treating sitting engines and that has contributed to your lack of problems but I would suspect there is something you are not telling us,,with all due respect my friend, I hope you are being honest and all politics aside. In reality, it is weird that gas and politics are related,,what aint these days as gov increases it's size, everybody has an interest!

Leonard read!

Can't even find 100% dino juice where I live and I never buy premium gas cause I don't own anything that requires high octain save for my sled...come on man! How is pressurized system any different than a carb....both use the same juice, and the float on a carb drops slightly until the right balance of fuel/pressure passes thru....it doesn't start and stop and start leaving quantities of unused fuel in the bowl. We are really reaching on why this doesn't affect FI engines compared to carbed. Less mechanical parts, like in submerged fuel pump, injectors, etc compared to a float bowl and a couple jets? I don't think my weed whacker has a fuel pump, but it does have a primer.

EVERY SINGLE PIECE OF EQUIPMENT YOU OWN HAVE BEEN SEVERELY AFFECTED BY ETHANOL FUEL?? Maybe you guys are all gettn some bad gasoline...where are you shopping?

SOMETHING I AM NOT TELLING YOU...like what....I tear down my motors every week but don't want to admit it...why?

As I said before, I don't bother to treat my gas unless I am leaving it for at least 10 months....snowmobiles, blowers, and how are you gunna treat a chainsaw....

I would start checking on WHERE you guys buy your gas...I have never even seen anything resembling GREEN GUNK....and it's not like I blow out the hoses after each use. NO I don't sell additives, or work for anything related to fuel companies.

Have you known me to exaggerate?

Frankly this is getting humorous to me, as those who absolutely are committed that ethanol blended fuels are REALLY REALLY bad for you...perhaps if you drink it. Most of the world uses it and as I said before...I am not the only one who uses chainsaws or own a snowblower....everybody on my street has one....nobody comes to me and says, "Hey, you're the only guy who can keep your snowblower working....clean my driveway!" They are buying gas at the same stations and as I said before YOU CAN'T BUY GAS THAT DOESN'T HAVE ETHANOL IN IT....seems to me in one of the other discussions, that Michigan has had a requirement that ALL gasoline contain ethanol....think it was since 2006. Maybe that law got repealed...and maybe all the other states don't require ethanol be blended in....but clearly a bunch of this stuff is gettin used by an awful lot of folks and you don't see chainsaw carb rebuilding parties...

I will agree that politics is a heavy element in painting a bad picture of corn gas...but that is ancient history now; it is here to stay and your neighbors are using it and living with it just fine. I am not buying all the crap about how bad Ethanol is, and until I start having problems, I am just going to do a little chuckle as folks on here say how bad it is cause frankly either they are doing something wrong, or they themselves are doing "other things" that is bringing on the problems.

Now go ahead and bash, but I am done with this one! (Got to go blow out all my fuel lines and try and find some gas that doesn't have that NASTY OLD ETHANOL IN IT.....not!)

 

[lenny]

Leonard read!

Can't even find 100% dino juice where I live and I never buy premium gas cause I don't own anything that requires high octain save for my sled...come on man! How is pressurized system any different than a carb....both use the same juice, and the float on a carb drops slightly until the right balance of fuel/pressure passes thru....it doesn't start and stop and start leaving quantities of unused fuel in the bowl. We are really reaching on why this doesn't affect FI engines compared to carbed. Less mechanical parts, like in submerged fuel pump, injectors, etc compared to a float bowl and a couple jets? I don't think my weed whacker has a fuel pump, but it does have a primer.

EVERY SINGLE PIECE OF EQUIPMENT YOU OWN HAVE BEEN SEVERELY AFFECTED BY ETHANOL FUEL?? Maybe you guys are all gettn some bad gasoline...where are you shopping?

SOMETHING I AM NOT TELLING YOU...like what....I tear down my motors every week but don't want to admit it...why?

As I said before, I don't bother to treat my gas unless I am leaving it for at least 10 months....snowmobiles, blowers, and how are you gunna treat a chainsaw....

I would start checking on WHERE you guys buy your gas...I have never even seen anything resembling GREEN GUNK....and it's not like I blow out the hoses after each use. NO I don't sell additives, or work for anything related to fuel companies.

Have you known me to exaggerate?

Frankly this is getting humorous to me, as those who absolutely are committed that ethanol blended fuels are REALLY REALLY bad for you...perhaps if you drink it. Most of the world uses it and as I said before...I am not the only one who uses chainsaws or own a snowblower....everybody on my street has one....nobody comes to me and says, "Hey, you're the only guy who can keep your snowblower working....clean my driveway!" They are buying gas at the same stations and as I said before YOU CAN'T BUY GAS THAT DOESN'T HAVE ETHANOL IN IT....seems to me in one of the other discussions, that Michigan has had a requirement that ALL gasoline contain ethanol....think it was since 2006. Maybe that law got repealed...and maybe all the other states don't require ethanol be blended in....but clearly a bunch of this stuff is gettin used by an awful lot of folks and you don't see chainsaw carb rebuilding parties...

I will agree that politics is a heavy element in painting a bad picture of corn gas...but that is ancient history now; it is here to stay and your neighbors are using it and living with it just fine. I am not buying all the crap about how bad Ethanol is, and until I start having problems, I am just going to do a little chuckle as folks on here say how bad it is cause frankly either they are doing something wrong, or they themselves are doing "other things" that is bringing on the problems.

Now go ahead and bash, but I am done with this one! (Got to go blow out all my fuel lines and try and find some gas that doesn't have that NASTY OLD ETHANOL IN IT.....not!)

ALRIGHTY THAN!!!!!!!!!!

The difference with carb to EFI is all the small parts, jets, orifices in a carb that are subject to clogging and corrosion


On a carb, the bowl is full when your vehicle is off so you do have gas sitting there unlike EFI. My point was a carb has many many parts, trust me, I just rebuilt my 86 dodge 4 barrel and it runs like a top. Have rebuilt many carbs in my days. Carbs are mechanical and EFI is Computerized, many small parts with carbs compared to hardly nothing with the EFI and on cars they are not neary suseptable to this problem we are talking about. It seems to be a smaller engine issue probably due to the size of jets and less usage on the smaller engines.

How are you gonna treat a chain saw? WTH dude? Why would it be any different. If the little bastard sits it's gonna be a problem with eth fuel no matter what it is. Both my chain saws this season needed carb work because of the crap gas and I neglected to store it properly. It's just a ritual for me to clean all the small engine cabs every spring.

Yea,, it's just all of us dude, you just have better stuff than we do

I will refrain from what you might not be telling us. I should not have worded it that way in the first place. One guys said that just as water is wet, eth gas will screw up your small engines. If you like to continue to tell all us we are buying bad gas than fine,, water is wet! Also, I just unsubscribed from this thread because it don't matter, the truth has been spoken!

 

[xcsp]

There is a "Keep Ethanol-Free Gas Widely Available" petition posted on the White House We the People site.

Go here to read it AND sign it, unless of course you like ethanol fuel.
Pass along to your friends & family.

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/keep-ethanol-free-gas-widely-available/lhq1qgW4

 

[snowfreak56]

I hope nobody is buying the bable that Moose is talking.It is a fact ethanol does,has and will cause issues in small engines,and phase seperation is a real issue that there is not a cure for, some additives will slow it down but none will fix it.

 

[anonomoose]

Read about phase seperation and get an education: http://www.epa.gov/otaq/regs/fuels/rfg/waterphs.pdf

Be careful where you buy your fuels and how you store it... as it does make a difference.

 

[snake]

there are many diff. variables that can have different results when it comes to ethynol blended fuel. for example=the guy that keeps his boat ect.. closer to the water,is going to have more issues than the guy that doesnt. 2nd=the guy that keeps his fuel tank full vs. very little in the tank will have more problems due to larger amounts of air going in and out of the vent,which brings me to my last tidbit=units that are efi are sealed off from the atmosphere,which is why you dont see the problems with autos that sit for awhile=their fuel systems only let air in when it's being operated,esp autos. there are many other factors to consider,this is just a few,BUT THE SIMPLE FACTS ARE THAT THERE ARE MORE FUEL RELATED PROBLEMS CAUSED BY ETHYNOL FUEL VS NON PERIOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!