NEED HELP!! Survey from John Dee Sledders!

[kip]

Hey guys,

I need your help here. I had a meeting with some folks from Yamaha Motor Corp. yesterday and they wanted some info. from me and I'm going to let you guys decide for me if you will. Please try to keep the brand game out of this. More responses the better as I want to point Yamaha to John's site for future input. After all you guys decide what sells and what doesn't right? So, here it is. If Yamaha built light weight cross over and mountain sleds and sacrificed some dependability and maybe some fit and finish would you riders who ride cross over and strict off trail purchase these? Second question, do you think it should be 4 stroke or 2 stroke? What do you value more, weight or power? The reason I ask that question is when we turbo Nytro XTX's or MTX's they sell like hotcakes which tells me guys are willing to sacrifice some weight for that feel of the power. Now I don't mean they wouldn't be dependable as most Yamaha engines are but I want to point out that those specific riders are willing to sacrifice some things to get what they want. There will be more to follow but this is a good start. Please help if you can! Thanks, Kip

 

[momoney2123]

Personally I like the lighter weight, but I dont think sacrificing dependability is going to sit well with anyone. As far as 2 stroke vs 4, I will ride a 2-stroke until they no longer exist and am forced to ride a 4 stroke. The power/weight difference being the main reason, and the powerband of a 2 stroke is something a 4 will never have.

 

[Bradzoo]

Kip, I think the Turbo Nytro XTX 1.75" is on the right track, as you know I looked at a non-turbo with the thoughts of having you put a turbo kit on it, before purchasing my current sled, I really think there is a shortage of sleds in the 141"-144" range the off-trail more than on trail sled. People that boondock don't put the high miles that trail riders do weight is more of an issue lighter is better, but they have to be durable as they take alot of punishment

Bradzooo

 

[kip]

Maybe that came out wrong momoney. What I meant was the 2s are not as dependable as the 4s so are you guys willing to sacrifice that and I'm sure I know the answer to that! LOL!

 

[snoduke88]

Yes I thing a good cross over sled is just what is needed. I also think that they should come out with a good starter sled, we need a sled that younger sleders can aford. If someone would come out with a sled for them they could not build them fast enough, who wants to put a 12-16 year old on a 100mph sled? Some older sleds {inticers} are selling for more than they did new!

 

[momoney2123]

Kip,

I gotcha, Personally Yes its an easy decision for me. Now If I walked into your store and you sold me a brand new 2 stroke and didnt have high confidence in the dependability, maybe there would be a different story. I personally upgrade every 2-4 years so dependability on 2 strokes havent been an issue. If I planned on buying a sled and keeping past 10,000+ mile range i would consider a 4 stroke otherwise two stroke.

 

[mezz]

A light weight, dependable 2 stroke crossover with NO sacrifice to fit & finish. I don't know why a sacrifice to anything would be acceptable today, especially considering the investment that is being made. The crossover sleds are ideal for area's like ours & are essentially dual purpose. If there is a consideration taken on the price point, then some sacrifice to fit & finish might be acceptable, say turning that 13 to 14g price into 8 or 9g, perhaps one could live with that.-Mezz

 

[kip]

Good info. guys. Keep it coming! I understand momoney. Makes sense. I like two strokes and would like to see Yamaha bring back some two strokes. I have confidence in them and they have many positives.

 

[lenny]

Here's my .02 worth! Mountain and off-trail riding requires that the rider makes his sled his bit**, it's true. Handling a heavy sleds means you tire out faster and make mistakes, bend stuff, get hurt. Weight for this specific style of riding is mandatory although there is a broad range of riding styles in Mtn and off trail but the concept remains and that is "weight is a huge factor". We need to be able to manipulate our machines easily and if that means compromise than my answer is YES, you bet. I plan to own a pro RMK someday because that is a flickable machine and I'd like to ride long hrs and be comfortable someday.

Personally, I do not think that a light weight sled that is prone to bending and breaking is a bad thing,,,, because this is an extreme sport and we go into it knowing we are going to make mistakes and smack something sometime along the way. If Yamaha had a sled under 450 lbs and with 145 hp, I'd buy one and never blame Yamaha when I bust it because it's high risk riding and the operator is responsible. Loosing weight on a sled means something right, where is the mass removed from and what effect does it have, the effect is we have a more fragile but flickable sled and that's what we all want, maybe not the fragile part but this is the sacrifice we make. Doesn't mean you have to have a motor that blows up 3 times in 1500 miles, right Nick! (09 assault) lol

Yamaha is very capable if they so choose, I hope they do because they do just about everything well and this concept would be no different. I'd model their motors after Cat, skip the sealed bearing crank bearings (doo), no more chain case (poo),,,now I'm just rambling,,,but I tell you what, it's exciting to know there is a speck of interest with Yammi here!

 

[vmax1994]

Here are some hard requirement for me:

Under 500 pounds
140+ HP, preferably 160+ HP
Dependable to 15K+ miles (top end rebuild acceptable, normal maintenance exoected)
High quality fit and finish - really don't understand why this is a question
1.75+" track option
Good trail and deep snow handling - adjustable ski stance, risers desirable

2S or 4S acceptable if above requirements are met.

 

[whitedust]

Personally I like the lighter weight, but I dont think sacrificing dependability is going to sit well with anyone. As far as 2 stroke vs 4, I will ride a 2-stroke until they no longer exist and am forced to ride a 4 stroke. The power/weight difference being the main reason, and the powerband of a 2 stroke is something a 4 will never have.

Hmmm.... not sure what advanatge 2s powerband has over broad 4s powerband? 2s engines always peaky compared to 4s any brand just the nature of the engine tech just look at all dyno studies to know that. Crossover means to me both trail & ungroomed FR riding & would never sacrifice Yamaha dependability for light weight or downgrade excellent fit & finish. With that said if riding raw powder only fit & finish is NOT that important only going to scar up the sled anyway thru brush & trees duct taoe & cable ties common fixes. 4s will always be heavier than 2s by design but raw power can overcome lots of weight issues when you have a good rider in the saddle. The down side to weight in powder is digging out a heavy sled just awful to do. Any mountain rider is going to come up less weight with long track & why RMK sells so well even with known 800 engine problems. Too me crossover & mountain riders have different needs crossover guy will be less impressed with weight issues as maybe only 50% powder where mountain rider 95% in powder so power & weight always on his/her mind.

 

[Woodtic]

They simply need to build a two stoke cross over to fill the void. How many Xfires,Renigades,and Switchbacks get sold every year ? They are missing one of the biggest market shares in sled sales. There are many reasons why so many don't go four stroke.

 

[snoluver1]

If Yamaha builds a 2 stroke mountain/crossover I would be one of the first in line to buy one. Out west or in the trees it's all about the weight. You can juice that 4 stoke up to 500 hp if you want, its still a heavy pig when your trying to pick lines through the trees or trying to dig it out. Quality clutching with easy calibration changes from sea level to 10k is high on the proirity list as well.

 

[fireworks]

Overall power was my thing with doo. Then power to weight ratio was introduced along with flickability. Downside is the lifetime of the motor on poo's. I have chosen to spend the money on a new top end if needed. By doing so, and this is only my opinion, I am riding the most capable mountain sled right now. I would like to say I have brand loyalty. However, the brand that gives me the best ability to technical ride in the mountains is the sled or brand for me. Looking at the market share reports. Going with a light weight less dependable sled is what the consumer wants.

 

[snoluver1]

One additional comment about wieght. As an off trail/mountain rider, I do not want a sled built so light that major structural components are subject to being easily damaged. We beat the piss out of these things and they need to hold up to some abuse within reason. I will sacrifice a few pounds for some structural integrity. The last thing I want is a 4 hundred pound sled that I have to add 50 pounds and a couple hundred dollars worth of bracing to before I can actually ride it.

 

[allen_shores]

I think a lighter weight crossover is a great idea, only if the cost can be kept down. I'm getting priced right out of this sport. I have owned Yamaha's in the past, 99 SX 700. 8,000 plus trouble free miles, slides and skegs maybe a belt every other year. I just can't see spending the money for a new one now. I own a 2008 Polaris Shift 600 now, same thing here trouble free miles! I think Polaris is on the right track with there Indy series. The Indy 600, or the Ski-Doo Sport 600 are really the only two sleds that makes any sense for me to buy new. Yamaha needs something in this price range. I could give up a little fit and finish for a dependable Yamaha two stroke. I agree with Mezz on the price part. Otherwise allot of us are going to get priced right out! I will step down now.

 

[scott_b]

It isn't just weight, it is balance. In an ideal world I would love a light weight 144' 145+ hp 4 stroke sled but it needs to be durable and balanced. I am really interested in riding a Viper XTX...

 

[anonomoose]

There is simply no reason that you have to make a choice on either a 2 or 4 stroke. There isn't any reason they can't build a light 4 stroke....considerably lighter and since the sled is lighter you don't need 500 hp. The trade is that if you are used to going airborne 45 feet and landing hard, maybe the light sled won't fit your riding. But for the majority, who don't do the fly through the sky stuff, a nice light sled with smaller engine that still can get you rolling fast enough, and which is light enough so you don't get buried every time you go out would be a great sled to have.

It is pretty hard to build one sled that fits everyone. But we should not have to choose between a 162 inch track and high horses to turn it when a 136 or 144 would get the job done nicely and still be fun on a trail but go like crazy overland in the deep without plowing or taking a come-a-long with you.

I also don't think that you need to sacrifice fit and finish either. What does it cost to make it cheaper but better? Not so much skin...okay with me. Reliability as far as starting and getting you there and back is not something that ever can be sacrificed...reputation for bad will kill sales faster than water on a fire.

Seems to me that the industry is stuck in a high horsepower and high expense mode. 14k for a sled? Really? Build good, change little, refine it, make them cheaper and stronger and cut the horses and price tag in half....watch the sledding population grow..rather than shrink. Maybe it is just me, but if you sell two sleds at $5500 rather than one sled at $11000 you get more into the sport, make nearly as much profit and everybody wins. This will ensure that there are sledders who can enter the sport reasonably and not everyone who owns a sled is over 48.

 

[momoney2123]

Hmmm.... not sure what advanatge 2s powerband has over broad 4s powerband?

Not saying it was an advantage, just personal preference. The 4 stroke in my opinion just isnt the same, much broader band and easier to ride and more forgiving, yes, as snappy and quick reving and as fun to drive (IMO), no. And then the weight. Some people like the 4 stroke ride more and i cant blame them. Would be similiar to people who would prefer a raptor vs a banshee or a yfz450 vs a yz250. But with that being said, I couldnt ever see a competetive crossover or mountain sled with a 4-stroke in it unless they figure out how to ditch all the extra weight. Some day maybe, just not today or tomorrow.

 

[doospunk]

They simply need to build a two stoke cross over to fill the void. How many Xfires,Renigades,and Switchbacks get sold every year ? They are missing one of the biggest market shares in sled sales. There are many reasons why so many don't go four stroke.

X2. Now........, the question is, if Yamaha did build something in this class, what added feature / benefit, etc. would I see to persuade me to consider changing from Skidoo. I've had 3 new Summit's in the last 4 years, (all of which have performed and competed great). The RMK Pro is a great sled, and the Cat is getting there (after it's long time reign on the M chassis), but neither have done anything so mind blowing that would make me want to switch to them at this point. I'd say a huge part of why and how people buy new sleds is more than just the manufacturer. It's a great dealer that keeps me coming back as well. The snow season is short enough as it is for midwestern riders. If something goes wrong on my ride, I want to know my guy is going to get me back out in the woods as quick as possible. Kip and Chad are great examples of that in the Keeweenaw. I know a # of guys who keep buying from them just because of that.