NEED HELP!! Survey from John Dee Sledders!

[hoffmansledder]

X3 with doospuunk and woodtic. A light weight 150+ HP Crossover with a 141 or 137 X 16 X1.75 is the ticket for me!!!! Preferably a 2S for my style, but to each his own.

 

[Bradzoo]

Yamaha already has a good chassis in the Nytro XTX 1.75 if they drop a light weight 150hp 2 stroke in it and get the price around $10,000.00 and put a bigger gas tank on it problem solved

Bradzoo

 

[Special K]

I currently have an XF 1100 turbo Cat. If it had the big yammi 4 stroke in it, I would be set. I LOVE CAT, but also really respect and love that Yammi quality/dependability. So if they dropped that big 4 into a cat chassis crossover, **** yes.

 

[srt20]

IMO, tell them to make their own version of a PRO RMK, with a turbo phazer engine 125-145hp at elevation. No need for fancy gadgets, or 50lbs suspensions. Replace an a-arm, not an S module. Off trail and mtn riders don't need comfy seats, plush suspensions, or fancy electronics. Clicker shocks, power steering, heated seats aren't needed either.

450# dry, 125-145 hp 4 stroke, well balanced, specific built sled. Tell them to look at the PRO RMK sales numbers, then add a decent power plant. They could be back on top in 2 years. Mtn segment anyway.

 

[opt8low]

It seems to me that Yamaha could build what we want if they choose too. They have the tech to make it happen. They have just chosen to not make a great 4S! They have done it in Motorcross and now look at that sport. All 4S.

They need to build a 4S in the 130 to 150 horsepower range but put it in a chassis that will not bend with little hits and make it weight in at about 470lBs. Oh and have the build quality we expect from Yamaha. This would be the ideal UP sled. Turbo it for out west.

Make it look great with some options for use to choose and they would sell all they could build. Kip would have so much money he would be handing out cigars and lighting them with 100 dollar bills. Well maybe not but I bet he would like that. Right Kip?

Let's change the game Yamaha like you did with 4S dirtbikes.


Dana

 

[kip]

Dana,

LOL!! That made me laugh and it's good to laugh! Thanks for that!

 

[gffdc1045]

If Yamaha built a 425 lb mountain sled in the 150 hp range I am all in. I have been a loyal Cat guy my whole life and have a 12 & 13 M800's right now but with all the recall's and back order's on parts for updates I have had it. I own a Vector for my wife and it's the most dependable sled I have ever owned, would I ride a 4 stroke? Nope I hate the way the power comes on them and they are WAY to heavy for the way that I want to ride. I don't care what the power plant is if the new sled is light and STRONG on power. Fit and finish are nice and I do not expect an off trail sled to live to 10k miles but 4k miles before a top end is a reasonable expectation (IMHO). The Viper XTX on a diet with a Turbo or Supercharger with a longer skid would be interesting.

 

[whitedust]

Hmmm.... not sure what advanatge 2s powerband has over broad 4s powerband?

Not saying it was an advantage, just personal preference. The 4 stroke in my opinion just isnt the same, much broader band and easier to ride and more forgiving, yes, as snappy and quick reving and as fun to drive (IMO), no. And then the weight. Some people like the 4 stroke ride more and i cant blame them. Would be similiar to people who would prefer a raptor vs a banshee or a yfz450 vs a yz250. But with that being said, I couldnt ever see a competetive crossover or mountain sled with a 4-stroke in it unless they figure out how to ditch all the extra weight. Some day maybe, just not today or tomorrow.

Ok your personal preference I get that power to weight ratio your thing for sure & your preference. For me I have been down that road with Doo & did not end well.lol I'll give up light weight for Yamaha 4s reliablity no brainer for me. Don't under estimate Yamaha capabilities as a motor company. Yamaha could pop out an outstanding 2s engine & sled in a heart beat if they choose to. Yamaha could also have a lighter 4s engine on the shelf with turbo just trying to figure out best applications & who knows what the could cook up with AC OEM relationship. To me if Yamaha is willing to talk to Kip means they are interested in a new lightweigt 4s or finally going with an injected 2s snowmobile in mountain & crossover market. Time to think out of the box a bit of what ifs not so much of what is in the box already.

 

[towtruck]

I think in the short term, Yam could just ask Cat if they can pull the stickers of the 2stroke mountain sleds and xovers and put Yam stickers on and sell them at Yam dealers-(ok change the hood color too) if that goes well they would have their answer-pretty sure that trail is groomed and ready for travel anyway right?

 

[whitedust]

Just does not make good business sense to me for Yamaha to throw a me too product into mountain & crossover markets lots of good 2s sleds already available. Yamaha has to have something very different up their sleeves or no ROI to be me too especially in mountain segment. Or Yamaha simpley wants to release 2s engines & wants to start in mountain & crossover markets before having complete line up of 2s sleds. Would Yamaha pick up market share with 2s sleds... EASY HECK YES! Same thing would Polaris increase market share with a new 4s sled?.... sure thing too. The problem as I see it starts at the top Yamaha has stated time & time again 2s not their direction & same with Polaris has no 4s interest. Maybe something has changed with Yamaha AC has their ear big time must have got their attention.

 

[old abe]

Do I smell a 800 DSI YamaCat ?

 

[polarisrider1]

I think in the short term, Yam could just ask Cat if they can pull the stickers of the 2stroke mountain sleds and xovers and put Yam stickers on and sell them at Yam dealers-(ok change the hood color too) if that goes well they would have their answer-pretty sure that trail is groomed and ready for travel anyway right?

I am sure that is where this is all leading. They are in the sack together.

 

[indy_500]

no way will a 2s ever last with the EPA's hands all over the industry. My vote goes for a Lightweight 4 stroke 144 crossover (under 500 lbs) 1.75/2" 140-160 hp non turbo with a hood that's not molded around the motor (like the phazer and fx nytro) I'm not asking for perfect fit and finish, just keep as good or better than what any of the other 3 manufacturers are putting out. No need for too many fancy electronics, decent shocks, running boards, and under $12k! Not this $15k viper stuff.

 

[ezra]

2stroke only untill they can make a 4stroke as light. no matter how much power a motor makes it wont keep the nose from submarine as soon as u let off the gas.
fit and finish what ever I think that is just some BS people talk about when they have nothing else to brag about. that fit and finish is worth crap the first time U tag a tree in the woods.
and I would buy a yammi 2st prob the only brand I would jump ship for. have always had positive experience with all yammi 2stroke sleds skis quads bikes I have owned over the past 30yrs.

 

[lenny]

There is simply no reason that you have to make a choice on either a 2 or 4 stroke. There isn't any reason they can't build a light 4 stroke....considerably lighter and since the sled is lighter you don't need 500 hp. The trade is that if you are used to going airborne 45 feet and landing hard, maybe the light sled won't fit your riding. But for the majority, who don't do the fly through the sky stuff, a nice light sled with smaller engine that still can get you rolling fast enough, and which is light enough so you don't get buried every time you go out would be a great sled to have.

It is pretty hard to build one sled that fits everyone. But we should not have to choose between a 162 inch track and high horses to turn it when a 136 or 144 would get the job done nicely and still be fun on a trail but go like crazy overland in the deep without plowing or taking a come-a-long with you.

I also don't think that you need to sacrifice fit and finish either. What does it cost to make it cheaper but better? Not so much skin...okay with me. Reliability as far as starting and getting you there and back is not something that ever can be sacrificed...reputation for bad will kill sales faster than water on a fire.

Seems to me that the industry is stuck in a high horsepower and high expense mode. 14k for a sled? Really? Build good, change little, refine it, make them cheaper and stronger and cut the horses and price tag in half....watch the sledding population grow..rather than shrink. Maybe it is just me, but if you sell two sleds at $5500 rather than one sled at $11000 you get more into the sport, make nearly as much profit and everybody wins. This will ensure that there are sledders who can enter the sport reasonably and not everyone who owns a sled is over 48.

now moose, I can't let you get away with that. There are some serious dynamic differences in a 2 smoke and a 4 stroke. Back in the bush you need the snap of the 2 stroke winding up and the power is right there, it's on and the track speed is right there. The 4 stroke is more linear and pulls through the RPM range but much broader and smooth. With lines being sought out by the rider, decisions being made instantaneously, the reaction time for the power to be right there on the 4s is a disadvantage and unfavorable for tight UP bush, tree steep & deep riding, Mtn tree riding. Cat has done an incredible job with the Xfire. The Xfire does very well in many different applications. Any manufacturer with struggle to keep up with, power, comfort, ergonomics and reliability of the 800Xfire, it's just a tremendous machine in the bush and a great trail sled.

162 track has Mtn written all over it, your right, we don't need it in the UP but Kip did ask about the Mtn segment also and 162 provides the flotation in the deep. The Nytro chassis is a great set up but as Ezra stated, it dives and is a handful, not pleasurable with a heavy 4s. In order to shed weight we will experience a loss of fit and finish. Hoods more lighter and flexible, snap in panels, who cares if the lines are not like a Caddie, you may be in a tree at any second. The high horsepower is exactly what allows the rider to achieve the line he sees, the throttle is your best friend to keep the momentum going and keeping less weight moving is easier than more weight. When I bought my Cat M the first thing I noticed was the cheep junkie ignition switch, but it weighed like 2 oz and why did I need a bulky metal fancy switch that I was accustomed to with Yamaha.

I say scrap all the gadgets, features etc,,,model it after the old Cat 128 sno pro, pre mix, clear tank, those bastards plain ripped. Do the small seats of today, with lightweight track and skid, dump the turd OEM cans and be piped from the factory. Follow doo with the reverse engine spinning backwards. No chain case (direct drive.) Yamaha could do it and many would buy it!

 

[Skylar]

Hey guys,

I need your help here. I had a meeting with some folks from Yamaha Motor Corp. yesterday and they wanted some info. from me and I'm going to let you guys decide for me if you will. Please try to keep the brand game out of this. More responses the better as I want to point Yamaha to John's site for future input. After all you guys decide what sells and what doesn't right? So, here it is. If Yamaha built light weight cross over and mountain sleds and sacrificed some dependability and maybe some fit and finish would you riders who ride cross over and strict off trail purchase these? Second question, do you think it should be 4 stroke or 2 stroke? What do you value more, weight or power? The reason I ask that question is when we turbo Nytro XTX's or MTX's they sell like hotcakes which tells me guys are willing to sacrifice some weight for that feel of the power. Now I don't mean they wouldn't be dependable as most Yamaha engines are but I want to point out that those specific riders are willing to sacrifice some things to get what they want. There will be more to follow but this is a good start. Please help if you can! Thanks, Kip

If Yamaha made a 140-160 HP LIGHTWEIGHT, DURABLE crossover or mtn sled, I would consider switching for sure. Power to me is not as important as being light. I only get out west once a year, my riding is off trail in the U.P., and IMO, lightweight is more important than power in the woods in the yoop. 2s vs 4s, well, I have only rode John's xtx when it comes to 4 strokes, for a day or more. I LOVE THAT MOTOR!! Now, you put that motor into my Pro RMK, SOLD, right now, TODAY!

 

[anonomoose]

Lenny....you have to lighten up on the caffeine...my point was the everyone ASSUMES that a light 4 stroke can't be made in a LIGHT chassis and make a good ....no better, off trail unit.

Think of a completely out of the box unit that can have lots of power and be light but doesn't need to be an oil burner. I have no issues doing without having power steering, and 5 shocks under the skid...pull out an old skiddoo and study it. I just mean that you don't have to sacrifice the nice of a 4 stroke for weight savings of a two smoker. It can be done...predict it will be done...by yamaha or some other. Just a matter of time....hope it is sooner than later. Burning oil is an issue for the makers because they can't shorten up enough on the oil use without killing the life of the unit....if they can, or could....they would have done it already.

 

[Woodtic]

I will try to keep this clean,I know this is a family show. Sleds are like woman,there are the fun to ride,the one you like to show off at the bar, and the marrying type. Yamaha is missing the fun to ride. We are grown men,we know what we want to ride and will sacrifice a few things to get the thrill.We can bolt things on later,if needed. You can be the greatest dealer in the world,but you need to have the fun girls we want, I mean fun sleds!!! This is not a slam an the current Yamaha line up. There is a Apex in my pole building that does bring a smile on my face from time to time.

 

[ezra]

are u sure cats new 600 is not going to fill the epa and durability list for yrs to come?
as far a a light weight 4s and inexpensive together in the same sled cant happen with the cost of light weight metals or fibers.
I just don't see yammi building a 2stroke again.
and I only see trail riders who think boondocking is a logging road buying a turbo crossover.
don't even get me started on Yamahas ability to hold a case together under heavy boost with out spending big big money.
I am sure a 141 yammi with a 3or4 lb of boost would sell but is it worth the time when a guy can just walk accrose the show room and buy the same cat chasi pushing 177 out of the box with the ability to push 250 for under 600 bucks?.
I would love to see yammi put out a new 2stroke in sleds then start rebuilding stand up ski's and drop it in one of those also.
I think they would make way more $$$ brining back a new stand up than competing with other sleds or the new cheep sea doo with the ace 900 in it.

 

[polarisrider1]

Yami already tried the light weight mtn. sled with the Mtn. Phazer and got laughed off the bunny hill. Togwotee had them a couple years back and we all laughed till we cried at that Mosquito looking sled with a wimpy motor.