Occupy Wall Street???

[lenny]

thanks, now were getting somewhere. Please don't think that my questions imply something ohter than what I ask because honestly,,, I don't know but I do know that they are not organized and clear, that I observe with MY own senses.

Okay,,, so congress is bought and they repay the special interest with something. I have heard this from both sids and we can agree that this as a problem. How far up on the list for OWS is this particular point, if you were to rate it at a level of importance?

 

[dcsnomo]

WOW!! I can't get to JD for a few days and look what happens to the OWS thread?!?

I live where everyone around me thinks just as racerx does. I can have conversations with some...others not. I do know better than to throw out the crap I believe at those around me who I know don't believe the same- seems to me it's good to know "one of these things is not like the other" and not make desparaging remarks about the ideals that my liberal neighbors hold dear for their own reasons. There's koolaid being drunk on each side of the aisle...but I don't think I've ever read anything Lenny ever wrote that was towing any line but his own. dcsnomo either. Ezra for sure not.

But I'll cyber-pull up my couch right next to dcsnomo's and skylars.

This has been a very informative, thoughtful and educational thread - with the usual smart alleck comments strewn throughout. I'd hate to see it degenerate because of one dude's comments...

Welcome back!

OK, I'm gonna try something here, asking all of you to think, not react, OK? Deal?

Here goes...America has always been the land of opportunity. We reward those that do well and take risks. We are not a class society, like India. The economic sector you are in is due to your ability to work hard, not due to the class you were born into. Okay so far?

Next...because of this, we think of our society as left vs.right, liberal vs. conservative, however you want to look at it. We don't look at it as rich vs. poor because this is America, if you want to be rich go to school, work hard, take risks, and you can be rich (Bill Gates as an example). OK, back to this left/right thing...our political system is left/right, our media is left/right (MSNBC/Fox), our discussions are left/right, our entire parameter for looking at our society is left/right because we are not a caste society. This board is left/right.

Since economic status has always been a matter of choice in America ( I chose to go to school, I chose to relocate four times in ten years to be a corporate exec) the left/right discussion has revolved around social issues, i.e. education, health care, guns, abortion, gay rights, welfare, etc. Since you are happy making Chevys in Janesville and I am happy selling market research in Chicago all of us in the same middle class discuss social policy to make our lives better. And this has set up this win/lose football game mentality. And it works, because we all have roofs over our heads, jobs, kids that can go to college, 401-ks, and 2 relatively new sleds in the garage, next to the boat.

Now, what happens if many of the people in the same middle class, regardless of left/right, suffer the same economic fate? If college graduates on the left are suffering the same fate as carpenters on the right (loss of job, home, future, opportunity)? Is the left winning? Nope. Is the right winning? Nope. Hmmm...is the middle class, regardless of left/right losing as a whole? Yes, we've lost 14 million jobs, our homes, retirement, and we are $15 trillion in debt.

The problems in America are, for the first time in our lives, class related.

Yet, I read these posts and the response to OWS is to call the participants names...bums, gays, lazy, and the classic "dirty, stinky hippies", even though you haven't met them. How do you know what they are? Why do you care what they are?

It would be wise to understand the issues, and Lenny (and others) I admire you for trying to do so since it is hard to find a legitimate issue with OWS. But there is one, the loss of representation due to the undue influence of corporations on the government. I almost choked when I read that Nancy Pelosi supports OWS, yet she is owned by special interests just like John Boehner and the rest of them.

This is a class issue. Don't look to the left, don't look to the right. This is about the realities of economic class in America, and the loss of opportunity and wealth due to the sale of our government to special interest groups. And if the Tea Party wants to legislate this and OWS wants to demonstrate in the streets than I am fine with both movements.

I am 58 years old and I seriously believe America, my America, is in big trouble. And if a bunch of dirty stinking hippies and Christian fundamentalist gun waving weirdos want to raise heck about it I am fine with that because fundamental to both movements is the lack of representation due to the sale of the government.

I want my government back.

Okay, done now...be kind....

 

[dcsnomo]

GOD I hope so

Actually, you don't want that, it assures an Obama victory as the republican vote would split. Ross Perot was the most successful third party candidate in History with 19% of the vote, and if you take 19% of the vote away from the Mittster it's 4 more years of Obama.

 

[dcsnomo]

thanks, now were getting somewhere. Please don't think that my questions imply something ohter than what I ask because honestly,,, I don't know but I do know that they are not organized and clear, that I observe with MY own senses.

Okay,,, so congress is bought and they repay the special interest with something. I have heard this from both sids and we can agree that this as a problem. How far up on the list for OWS is this particular point, if you were to rate it at a level of importance?

I don't know, really, I think OWS is a mess that is overrepresented by the media. But it is a curious mess since it is the first wide scale social protests in the USA since the 70's and it refuses to die.

What if it stopped being a mess?

 

[frosty]

Nope. Is the right winning? Nope. Hmmm...is the middle class, regardless of left/right losing as a whole? Yes, we've lost 14 million jobs, our homes, retirement, and we are $15 trillion in debt.

DCSNOMO, I love your elegants in your posts, but here is where everyone should take a real look at how bad a shape the US is. That 15 trillion number thats thrown out there in the media everyday, isn't the real number that concerns me, its these numbers taken from report from The Free Enterprise Nation. That received there numbers from the National Center for Debt Analysis(NCPA). Here are the real numbers nobody talks about:

Numbers as of 2009
Social Security.................................17.5 TRILLION UNFUNDED
Medicare Care Part A.........................36.7 TRILLION UNFUNDED
Medicare Care Part B.........................37.0 TRILLION UNFUNDED
Medicare Care Part D.........................15.6 TRILLION UNFUNDED

Total..............................................106.8 TRILLION dollars that nobody in the government has any idea on how in the he11 were going to pay for it. But its promised to every single American.

A trillion, its just a word, anyone can say, what does it really mean?! Here was an example that hit home for me, to count to a trillion 1 second at a time would take you.................. a trillion seconds!!!!hahaha, NO, 32,000 years to count to a trillion 1 second at a time. How bad is it, times that by a 106 in 2009!

 

[Firecatguy]

social security starting to look like a pyramid scheme to me......

 

[whitedust]

social security starting to look like a pyramid scheme to me......

Oh for sure always was a pyramid scheme I paid for my Mom & Dad my kids pay for me. Sometime soon Congress will draw a line in sand & make huge cut backs regarding SS. They will have a new program persay for 25 - 30ish year olds those in their 50s too late to change for them. Too bad the government skimmed SS in the past for other programs but too much money sitting there for them to ingnor. You really don't want to cut Mom & Dad's SS or they will end up back living with you just too late for them since they paid in for their entire lives. I would have been happy to pull out of SS in my 30s make my own investments & give SS the boot but not the case for me in my time.

 

[Dave_B]

Haven't followed this thread but, had some facebook friends post this. Captures my opinion.

 

[skiroule]

I'm keepin' this photo. This is too good for words..

 

[lenny]

Very much of what you say is accurate and you bring up a good point that were all in it together, just as Raserxnet said. I agree the system is broken and we need a complete overhaul. Washington does not have the interest of the people in mind, that cater to who will give them money and as a result confidence drops. Regardless, we are where we are. Identifying the cause, understanding who all is in this mess is good. Doing something about it is very important. Standing around, getting arrested, committing crimes, preventing business from functioning, blocking subways. These are the things OWS is best known for. OWS in their cause, had built their own wall of division. They are far far left and subscribe to "whatever means available" mentality. The actions we all view by OWS are not far and few in between, it's becoming the norm. I know there are those who are not violent but they are not vocal in any degree to be heard so change can be considered.


I think a better way to view this is the root of the problem. No offense D but I believe liberalism condtibutes the greatest to our moral decline. Here are some questions to many of the problems that lead us into the current situation.

Why did all the manufacturing jobs go overseas? Why do unions strong arm small business to conform to their standards. Why do we not protect our border to slow the rate on infiltration. I was a local 97 union worker for 7 years, painters union out of west Chicago Illinois. The union shop I worked had 20-25 illegal aliens working. This was a rampant problem. The union shops needed some relief from the load the unions placed on them so they would hire illegals and keep them on a secret scale. All this came back to bit them in the butt. Many of these illegal started up their own shops. They brought in all their relatives and friends and had massive man power. Non union builders loved the price and fast turn around time and the small legit shops were not able to compete. I mention this to illustrate that a liberal mindset is more prone to allow this sort of activity to continue. You see the divide we have on these issues between left and right so yea,,, I disagree with you on this class thingy. It does exist but as a result of both being bought out by the love of money but more so the decline of morality and liberal thinking. I'm sorry for being so blunt my friend DCSNOMO. You are a good man and I do not mean harm. I don't want you to feel insulted but I know for a fact that liberalism contributes to moral decal because they is no standard of truth. I am not saying one person is better than the other but liberalism promotes the ideals that "everything is up for grabs and revision." Nothing is sacred and all is subject to change. I would say most conservatives are phony and do the same thing. We need the real deal but there is no place in Washington for a true conservative. We have passed the point of accepting a true conservative as a mainstream player. They are viewed as the radical right. We just continue to evolve and our standard of truth has eroded to the standard of "all is good, just as long as you are happy" bs. I am starting to become numb to all this and really believe there is no hope. Just as we were wrong to think we could change the heart of a people in Iraq, Afghanistan,,,all those areas, we are foolish to believe we can change the heart of Americans. The world is in a crisis and it's lack of truth and the truth comes from the creator thus the greatest divided we see world wide,,,religion. Religion run amuck was the initial divider and will be the end divider. It all is encompassed by religion. We all have an interpretation and will defend it with great fervor. Thousands or sects of religion all fighting against each other. It happens right here at home. Do you really think the Lutheran accepts the Baptist or vice verse as legit. They all see each other as compromising. We are a very civilized people and no longer kill each other for out religious differences but the divide is alive and well. The middle east hates us more so for our Christian heritage over our democratic capitalistic society.

Washington can implement policy to slow the rate of destruction here in the US, it will take time but we are on the road and going down it,,,all roads lead to somewhere

Out to the shop now to yank the motor out of my wifes sled, it went blewey,,,Kapowwwwwww last year

Welcome back!

OK, I'm gonna try something here, asking all of you to think, not react, OK? Deal?

Here goes...America has always been the land of opportunity. We reward those that do well and take risks. We are not a class society, like India. The economic sector you are in is due to your ability to work hard, not due to the class you were born into. Okay so far?

Next...because of this, we think of our society as left vs.right, liberal vs. conservative, however you want to look at it. We don't look at it as rich vs. poor because this is America, if you want to be rich go to school, work hard, take risks, and you can be rich (Bill Gates as an example). OK, back to this left/right thing...our political system is left/right, our media is left/right (MSNBC/Fox), our discussions are left/right, our entire parameter for looking at our society is left/right because we are not a caste society. This board is left/right.

Since economic status has always been a matter of choice in America ( I chose to go to school, I chose to relocate four times in ten years to be a corporate exec) the left/right discussion has revolved around social issues, i.e. education, health care, guns, abortion, gay rights, welfare, etc. Since you are happy making Chevys in Janesville and I am happy selling market research in Chicago all of us in the same middle class discuss social policy to make our lives better. And this has set up this win/lose football game mentality. And it works, because we all have roofs over our heads, jobs, kids that can go to college, 401-ks, and 2 relatively new sleds in the garage, next to the boat.

Now, what happens if many of the people in the same middle class, regardless of left/right, suffer the same economic fate? If college graduates on the left are suffering the same fate as carpenters on the right (loss of job, home, future, opportunity)? Is the left winning? Nope. Is the right winning? Nope. Hmmm...is the middle class, regardless of left/right losing as a whole? Yes, we've lost 14 million jobs, our homes, retirement, and we are $15 trillion in debt.

The problems in America are, for the first time in our lives, class related.

Yet, I read these posts and the response to OWS is to call the participants names...bums, gays, lazy, and the classic "dirty, stinky hippies", even though you haven't met them. How do you know what they are? Why do you care what they are?

It would be wise to understand the issues, and Lenny (and others) I admire you for trying to do so since it is hard to find a legitimate issue with OWS. But there is one, the loss of representation due to the undue influence of corporations on the government. I almost choked when I read that Nancy Pelosi supports OWS, yet she is owned by special interests just like John Boehner and the rest of them.

This is a class issue. Don't look to the left, don't look to the right. This is about the realities of economic class in America, and the loss of opportunity and wealth due to the sale of our government to special interest groups. And if the Tea Party wants to legislate this and OWS wants to demonstrate in the streets than I am fine with both movements.

I am 58 years old and I seriously believe America, my America, is in big trouble. And if a bunch of dirty stinking hippies and Christian fundamentalist gun waving weirdos want to raise heck about it I am fine with that because fundamental to both movements is the lack of representation due to the sale of the government.

I want my government back.

Okay, done now...be kind....