Oil and breakin doesnt matter? dynotech says otherwise

[momoney2123]

So, he tested 9 POLARIS sleds, and the ones using POLARIS oil dynoed higher than the ones not using POLARIS oil. How many Kool aid drinkers are going to read that, and run right out and buy POLARIS oil? And you ask me if I think he has anything to gain? Again, lmao.

See thats where you are in the wrong. Your assuming a guy took money to say that. His whole reputation is based on honest unbiased dyno measurents. Do u kno how many times builders or manufacturers have tried to "buy" horsepower from him. Its the reason he is the standard in dyno testing because if it makes power on his dyno its legit.You kno what happens when you assume...LMAO

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Ps if polaris was gona pay him...id think there "mighty" NEW 800 HIGH output woulda did a little better than 150ish HP. Aka good for the least of the 800s.

 

[Skylar]

And bikeman performance got almost 160 out of a new Axys rmk 800. I guess I better call them ASAP and find out what kind of oil they had in it!

 

[snowchief]

On my 13 800 switchback I ran injex pro and could barely pull the thing over switched to the polaris ves pulled like a breeze it was a huge difference in exhaust valves also

 

[srt20]

So how many miles on each engine? Were they driven exactly the same? What were exact engine temps every second that they were run AND how hot did they get after they were shut down? What were the baseline hp runs when they were new, and after "break in" was complete? Did he tear these engines down after the dyno runs? What were his findings if he did?

I can keep going, but unless he knows the exact answers to these questions, he cannot make an educated guess/opinion.

Why he would even publish crud like this is damaging to his reputation.

Btw momoney, have you ever torn down, internally inspected, and or rebuilt an engine? I'm just wondering why you are so hung up on OEM oils.

 

[momoney2123]

And bikeman performance got almost 160 out of a new Axys rmk 800. I guess I better call them ASAP and find out what kind of oil they had in it!

That makes no sense. Sorry. U have your opinion and thats fine.

 

[momoney2123]

So how many miles on each engine? Were they driven exactly the same? What were exact engine temps every second that they were run AND how hot did they get after they were shut down? What were the baseline hp runs when they were new, and after "break in" was complete? Did he tear these engines down after the dyno runs? What were his findings if he did?

I can keep going, but unless he knows the exact answers to these questions, he cannot make an educated guess/opinion.

Why he would even publish crud like this is damaging to his reputation.

Btw momoney, have you ever torn down, internally inspected, and or rebuilt an engine? I'm just wondering why you are so hung up on OEM oils.

They get the pipe and engine temps the same throughout every run. Thats all monitored to be as consistant as possible. He also did do the same sled at 0 miles and 2000 miles. He did them in break in out of break in the whole 9 yards. He isnt saying this oil is better than that oil bla bla bla. All he mentioned was that of the 9 STOCK 800 HOs he tested multiple times all same pipe temp, air/fuel ratio, timing, the ones with something other than poo oil were less..coincidence? You decide. Thats all he was saying. Doo what you want with that info.

Yes i have torn down almost every engine ive had. My 800etec did not have a mile on it and it was completely torn down. PS i dont run BRP oil. Another side note i have never burned a rotax engine down. Guess im insanely lucky!!

 

[srt20]

I'm sure all the parameters were the same in the dyno run. If they werent, he'd be a hack. I'm talking about the life of the engines before the tests. How can he be even reasonably sure that the engines are in EXACTLY the same condition. Did he pull crankshafts and check that the runout was EXACTLY the same on each engine? Were the piston to cylinder clearance the EXACT same on each engine? Was the ring gaps EXACTLY the same on each engine? All this stuff affects horsepower. And he knows that. So how can any person say that it's NOT a coincidence the Polaris oils either burn better to make more power or protect better to make more power. Were the oil usage rates EXACTLY same as well? Because we all know that they have not been from sled to sled in the past.

Guessing is all it is. It's not apples to apples.


If he wanted to do a "good" test of this, he would have to run the engines from brand spanking new, through a life cycle, or at least the equivalent of X amount of miles, on his dyno under controlled circumstances. And even then, because tolerances from the factory are not exact for every engine, it's still not apples to apples. He would really have to build at least two engines from scratch with the same materials, to be EXACTLY the same. Down to the hundredths of thousandths.

Talk him into that one. If it shows the whoevers oil is better than the other, I will agree he, or you if you desire, is right.

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So what oil do you use then?

 

[momoney2123]

I'm sure all the parameters were the same in the dyno run. If they werent, he'd be a hack. I'm talking about the life of the engines before the tests. How can he be even reasonably sure that the engines are in EXACTLY the same condition. Did he pull crankshafts and check that the runout was EXACTLY the same on each engine? Were the piston to cylinder clearance the EXACT same on each engine? Was the ring gaps EXACTLY the same on each engine? All this stuff affects horsepower. And he knows that. So how can any person say that it's NOT a coincidence the Polaris oils either burn better to make more power or protect better to make more power. Were the oil usage rates EXACTLY same as well? Because we all know that they have not been from sled to sled in the past.

Guessing is all it is. It's not apples to apples.


If he wanted to do a "good" test of this, he would have to run the engines from brand spanking new, through a life cycle, or at least the equivalent of X amount of miles, on his dyno under controlled circumstances. And even then, because tolerances from the factory are not exact for every engine, it's still not apples to apples. He would really have to build at least two engines from scratch with the same materials, to be EXACTLY the same. Down to the hundredths of thousandths.

Talk him into that one. If it shows the whoevers oil is better than the other, I will agree he, or you if you desire, is right.

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So what oil do you use then?

If you subscribed to dynotech you would get an answer to your questions. Most if not all the engines were new or darn close to new. Im pretty certain if I remember the one they did 3 different times. 0 miles, 1000 miles and 2000 miles.

I do agree that some engines are going to make slightly more/less HP than others due to manufacturing defects and/or inconsistencies. but common not 8-10 HP difference, with numbers on low end, in the middle and high, not just 1 outlier? Just as a reference of the 2015-2016 800 etecs he did they were within 1-2HP of each other. if it isn't oil related, which I am not saying 100% for sure it is, but is the most obvious common denominator to the results...then what do you blame it on? I think its an interesting topic.

 

[srt20]

If you subscribed to dynotech you would get an answer to your questions. Most if not all the engines were new or darn close to new. Im pretty certain if I remember the one they did 3 different times. 0 miles, 1000 miles and 2000 miles.

I do agree that some engines are going to make slightly more/less HP than others due to manufacturing defects and/or inconsistencies. but common not 8-10 HP difference, with numbers on low end, in the middle and high, not just 1 outlier? Just as a reference of the 2015-2016 800 etecs he did they were within 1-2HP of each other. if it isn't oil related, which I am not saying 100% for sure it is, but is the most obvious common denominator to the results...then what do you blame it on? I think its an interesting topic.

I have subscribed in the past.

Well if you are going to come on here and paste proclamations from another source that X brand product might be better than Y brand product, you have to be able to back it up. Without factual proof, it's all just crap somebody read on the Internet. So it must be true. Bon jour.

 

[momoney2123]

I have subscribed in the past.

Well if you are going to come on here and paste proclamations from another source that X brand product might be better than Y brand product, you have to be able to back it up. Without factual proof, it's all just crap somebody read on the Internet. So it must be true. Bon jour.

Pretty rock solid data backing it up. Yea its just crap from unknown interner source. Comon get real.

 

[srt20]

Pretty rock solid data backing it up. Yea its just crap from unknown interner source. Comon get real.

Sorry, you have provided nothing to back anything up. Yeah, as of now it's crap from you. You posted it on here.

 

[momoney2123]

Was a good topic to try and understand. I guess we got to the bottom of it from the 'experts'. Its not the oil, thats just to LOL funny that it could actually be the oil causing the varience. No way, that guy took money from poo to say that. But but while he took money from poo to talk good about their amazing oil he forgot to bump up the actual engines performance above 2000s level 800 twins. But then it could be the engine quality and variences in machining. I guess that means out of 9 engines poo has such varience, 4 were poorly built. With todays machining practices and capabilities thats also a very logical assumption.

 

[G]

As the proud owner of 4 '03 ZR 900s I can assure you that all motors are not created equally. The 900s were famous for slipping the cranks out of index. A crank just a few thousands out of index will diminish power at an extraordinary rate. The fix is to have it trued and welded. I have done this with 2 of the 900s. They have considerably more snoot than the other two. Also little things like slightly touching up the factory Y pipes just to get some manufacturing slag out of the way makes a difference. There are a lot of ways one engine can make more power than another similar engine. To say that oil alone is the only variable is just not realistic.

 

[srt20]

Was a good topic to try and understand. I guess we got to the bottom of it from the 'experts'. Its not the oil, thats just to LOL funny that it could actually be the oil causing the varience. No way, that guy took money from poo to say that. But but while he took money from poo to talk good about their amazing oil he forgot to bump up the actual engines performance above 2000s level 800 twins. But then it could be the engine quality and variences in machining. I guess that means out of 9 engines poo has such varience, 4 were poorly built. With todays machining practices and capabilities thats also a very logical assumption.

I don't recall saying it's not the oil. I said he can't prove it's the oil.
Nobody said he took money to say anything. You made the statement that others assumed.
Now your trying to bash Polaris. Spin and deflect.
It's not just variances in machining, it's also how they've been treated. Did you not read this thread?

Good grief man, give it up.

 

[momoney2123]

As the proud owner of 4 '03 ZR 900s I can assure you that all motors are not created equally. The 900s were famous for slipping the cranks out of index. A crank just a few thousands out of index will diminish power at an extraordinary rate. The fix is to have it trued and welded. I have done this with 2 of the 900s. They have considerably more snoot than the other two. Also little things like slightly touching up the factory Y pipes just to get some manufacturing slag out of the way makes a difference. There are a lot of ways one engine can make more power than another similar engine. To say that oil alone is the only variable is just not realistic.

I completely agree its not the only variable. But lets look at the others...For one, todays machine practices and quality processes are much more advanced than 2001-2002(when those engines were actually made). 2 the bore and stroke of 900+ twins have always been a challenge for manufactureres to be consistant performers along with fuel and oil delivery being much less synchronized and consistant in comparison to todays delivery and montioring systems. The ECMs kno exactly how much fuel and oil are going into the engine and monitoring many inputs to keep engine in the 'happy' zone. Most of which are monitored while dynoing. Im not saying your wrong but if poo makes 9 engines and 4 are that much different they have major issues. I dont think its the case. If so then why would the etec be so much closer run after runn engine after engine. All etecs tested were with same oil too. Hmmmmmm. See where im going..

 

[Skylar]

The great Dynotech Jim says so, you all shall listen! Lmao. I'm going with, WHO FRICKEN CARES! lol, woooohooo!

 

[G]

I see where you are going. There is no debate that fuel delivery and computer controlled systems have advanced a lot since 2002. Doo led the way on the electronic controls with the early SDI's and now the ETECs and Aces and whatever else. Remember back when there were no computer controlled fuel delivery systems? It was common practice for Pol and AC to over jet motors to help prevent them from blowing up. Doo and Yami not so much. One of the reasons for this was to compensate for engines that were not quite up to spec. I once had the great misfortune to own a Storm. The only way it would stay together was to put in an extra head gasket. If you have been doing this for as long as I have surely you and some of your buddies all bought identical sleds at one time or another. There is always one that is the fastest and one that is the slowest. They do not all perform the same even though they are exactly the same. On paper anyway. Also factory tolerances and quality control are not the same from one manufacturer to another. There is a reason that Rotax motors are the motor of choice in the ultralight aircraft world where it is kind of important that you don't blow up. And that is all I am going to offer on the subject.

 

[momoney2123]

The great Dynotech Jim says so, you all shall listen! Lmao. I'm going with, WHO FRICKEN CARES! lol, woooohooo!

Why do you even comment if you dont care? I was reading in another thread you like to start your engine all summer.dont you own a Polaris cfi 800? You do kno the design of that engine limits oil at idle. And has been proven to cause seizures. U are basically running the engine all summer with no oil. But u already knew that im sure. By chance you every had to put pistons in that engine?

 

[srt20]

Why do you even comment if you dont care? I was reading in another thread you like to start your engine all summer.dont you own a Polaris cfi 800? You do kno the design of that engine limits oil at idle. And has been proven to cause seizures. U are basically running the engine all summer with no oil. But u already knew that im sure. By chance you every had to put pistons in that engine?

What on the design of the engine limits oil at idle?


Btw, I will agree with not starting a sled during summer. Fogged or not. Just my opinion though.

 

[Skylar]

Why do you even comment if you dont care? I was reading in another thread you like to start your engine all summer.dont you own a Polaris cfi 800? You do kno the design of that engine limits oil at idle. And has been proven to cause seizures. U are basically running the engine all summer with no oil. But u already knew that im sure. By chance you every had to put pistons in that engine?

I don't care if an engine makes x amount of hp using a certain oil, or less hp using a different oil. Yes I do have a cfi motor, I don't just let it idle when I start it in the summer. Yes, the pos went down this past March with 2800 miles on it, yes, I knew it was a pos 800 before I bought it, but it's the best chassis in the business for what I like to do. Yes, I bought the extended warranty, I paid my 50 dollar deductible, and now I have new cylinders pistons and rings. Woo-hoo!