Trail permits

[polarisrider1]

What's does the sled value have to do with anything? A $12,000 sled and a free sled does same amount of damage to the trail. Ever buy a lift pass at a ski resort or 18 holes of golf at a nice course? we are getting off pretty cheaply. One tank of premium in my sled is $48, Gallon of Poo oil $49, new pair of Klim gloves $230 (dang) it is a deal 1day a year. Last year I bought, Montana, Idaho, Wyoming, Ontario and a Michigan permit all to ride off trail. That is the price of doing business. If you don't like the price then join MSA and get on a committee, volunteer time to trail brushing and help keep costs down. Don't rip up the paved trail sections with your studs or steal signage for the family room, etc. And heaven forbide stop the tresspassing to prevent paying more for less trails.

 

[loriwlrc]

Please folks remember 100% of that trail permit $'s now goes to the trails, and clubs, before only a percent went towards purchases for groomers and clubs would have to purchase the remainder, through club loans, which was a monthly payment ,with years like this it was a hardship on a club. We now get 100% of our groomers paid, the trail money does not go into the state of Mich. general fund, it only goes to SNOWMOBILE TRAILS, not 4 wheeler trails, walking trails or anything else. This increase in permits has helped our area clubs recieve $300,000 plus groomers free of charge! We get paid with that money for miles groomed, for fuel , parts and maintances, and for the clubs that don't volunteer it pays the groomers wages.

 

[polarisrider1]

This whole trail permit discussion is a basic Cost/value issue. Carton of smokes or trail permit with change left over? Bottle of Jack or a permit? High speed internet over dial up or permit? If snowmobiling is a passion and/or a lifestyle, then a permit is not even a question. If money is tight give up on the resort with the pool and fancy restaurant and pack as many as you can in a budget motel and eat 2 for a buck gas station hot dogs. Snowmobiling is very expensive period.

 

[polarisrider1]

Please folks remember 100% of that trail permit $'s now goes to the trails, and clubs, before only a percent went towards purchases for groomers and clubs would have to purchase the remainder, through club loans, which was a monthly payment ,with years like this it was a hardship on a club. We now get 100% of our groomers paid, the trail money does not go into the state of Mich. general fund, it only goes to SNOWMOBILE TRAILS, not 4 wheeler trails, walking trails or anything else. This increase in permits has helped our area clubs recieve $300,000 plus groomers free of charge! We get paid with that money for miles groomed, for fuel , parts and maintances, and for the clubs that don't volunteer it pays the groomers wages.

Hi Lori, don"t forget to mention who went to "war" to get this setup for the clubs. MSA. visit them and join today. www.msasnow.org the magazine alone is worth the membership. Thank you Lori for being a Commercial member.

 

[whitedust]

For me with only 1 sled & on the border of UP & WI the $45 permit is not a hardship but for a family with 4 sleds @ the tune of $180 you just might stay in WI for a given weekend. Just saying I see the OP point of view for short term MI trail use for the casual family of riders. OEMs make different model & HP sleds for the market segment they are targeting because not everyone wants or needs the latest, greatest biggest HP sled to have fun. Market wise I think MI is missing the family riders & casual riders that would visit for a weekend then gone till next season. A discounted weekend trail permit would broaden the user base & address this market opportunity so the casual rider can also enjoy MI & spread the wealth to MI biz.

 

[polarisrider1]

For me with only 1 sled & on the border of UP & WI the $45 permit is not a hardship but for a family with 4 sleds @ the tune of $180 you just might stay in WI for a given weekend. Just saying I see the OP point of view for short term MI trail use for the casual family of riders. OEMs make different model & HP sleds for the market segment they are targeting because not everyone wants or needs the latest, greatest biggest HP sled to have fun. Market wise I think MI is missing the family riders & casual riders that would visit for a weekend then gone till next season. A discounted weekend trail permit would broaden the user base & address this market opportunity so the casual rider can also enjoy MI & spread the wealth to MI biz.

And what should the 3-5 day permit cost? who will administer it? There has to be a cost effective number to work, I think it should be $45 since we are working on an avg. Some visitors log more trail miles then the locals of MI. how is that going to be figured in? What about my family of 5 Michiganders, do I need to pay $45 ea. even if they just ride one day a year when they visit? How about a discount for them?

 

[chop]

I am one of those people that passed on a late season trip to MI last year because of the added cost of the trail pass. If I know I will use it more than one weekend I could buy a year pass but for a 3 day trip I just couldnt justify dropping $90 to sticker 2 sleds. Maybe that makes me "the problem" with this sport because I cant bankroll everyone elses fun. I have many hobbies, all of them powersports related. It gets expensive maintaining motorcycles, atvs, a boat, and snowmobiles. So whenever I can find a way to save a couple bucks I will. Those couple bucks I save may help pay for the next weekends trip. I have never seen another group of enthusiasts of any sport with as much of an "us vs. them" attitude as with snowmobilers. Most sports welcome newcomers and encourage growth. But I see quite the opposite here. I guess I'll just stick to riding in WI on my $500 sled.

 

[whitedust]

And what should the 3-5 day permit cost? who will administer it? There has to be a cost effective number to work, I think it should be $45 since we are working on an avg. Some visitors log more trail miles then the locals of MI. how is that going to be figured in? What about my family of 5 Michiganders, do I need to pay $45 ea. even if they just ride one day a year when they visit? How about a discount for them?

If MSA Or MI is interested they need to do the supporting maketing study to expand the market & apply an ROI to the weekend permit or 4 day permit whatever is considered. Simple color coding should work well for time periods of each month only need month color 4 week colors & can be seen at a distance. Does not seem very difficult to me if the will of the MSA & MI wants to do it they can. Keep it simple & inexpensive to broaden the market of riders to MI. Makes sense to me.

 

[whitedust]

x2 i got mine already in eagle river day before trails opened.

Indy where did you purchase MI trail permit in Eagle River? I have been buying at Lando BP no place in Phelps sells MI permit either.

 

[polarisrider1]

If MSA Or MI is interested they need to do the supporting maketing study to expand the market & apply an ROI to the weekend permit or 4 day permit whatever is considered. Simple color coding should work well for time periods of each month only need month color 4 week colors & can be seen at a distance. Does not seem very difficult to me if the will of the MSA & MI wants to do it they can. Keep it simple & inexpensive to broaden the market of riders to MI. Makes sense to me.

More riders= more grooming, more infrastructure, more stud damage, more tresspassing, etc. Sure the businesses gain from an increase in sledder traffic but the trails are funded by permit sales Only (and a smidgin of gas tax), so much pie to go around.
And what should the charge be for these permits and Michigan residents should also be able to buy these instead of the season permits correct?
I see a weekend pass at $45. Look what out of state hunting licenses are and you are getting a deal!

 

[whitedust]

More riders= more grooming, more infrastructure, more stud damage, more tresspassing, etc. Sure the businesses gain from an increase in sledder traffic but the trails are funded by permit sales Only (and a smidgin of gas tax), so much pie to go around.
And what should the charge be for these permits and Michigan residents should also be able to buy these instead of the season permits correct?
I see a weekend pass at $45. Look what out of state hunting licenses are and you are getting a deal!

Simple do the marketing research for ROI as stated above & price to what the market will bear with all the trail expenses included. To me only way to aproach the opportunity is with hard facts the market is available do the numbers by those that have the numbers & go from there.

 

[polarisrider1]

Simple do the marketing research for ROI as stated above & price to what the market will bear with all the trail expenses included. To me only way to aproach the opportunity is with hard facts the market is available do the numbers by those that have the numbers & go from there.

It has been done and permits really should be at $60

 

[Rupp Collector]

Am I the only person that believes Michigan would be better off if they offered a 3 or 5 day trail permit instead of the yearly pass only. I come up with my family 1 time a year, and the guys once a year for usually 3-4 days on both trips. I bring 2 sleds with the family, and 1 on the guys trip. We stay in the Mercer area on both occasions. I do not want to spend the $45 on a trail permit on a sled that is only going to be in Wisconsin for 3 days and would only ride in Michigan 1 or 2 days. I'm fine with buying a yearly permit for one sled because it will be in the northwoods twice a year for a total of 6-8 days. I think more revenue would be generated if they offered such because riders may be more apt to spend the $15 or $20 for a temporary permit instead of boycotting the current fees. I know I may catch some slack about this, and some may tell me to just spend the money and ride, but I can't help but believe that everyone would benefit because a little revenue is better than no revenue.

Yep yer the only one. I bought 4 through MSA and gave two away. Dang if I knew it was that big of a deal I could of given them to some out of state rider so they would come to Michigan. Just sayin

 

[garyl62]

I know permits for multiple sleds can get expensive and if its only for 3 days of riding its easy to point your finger at permits as an umbalanced expense, but look at some other things. A lot of you are talking about 12k sleds, 30k trucks and on and on... Instead of looking at what you've got for long term investments look at actual trip costs. I pull a trailer from N IL, stay in a motel for 4 nights, we ride 2 full days and 2 half days, eat 2 meals out each day and maybe spend $50 in town on something to bring home. By the time I add up my out of pocket expenses for those four days its normally $1,000 to $1,100 for two of us each on our own sled. That doesn't count the oil I bring with, belts blown, new plugs, new pair of gloves I maybe bought or any equipment. To spend $90 on permits is abot 9% of my actual trip cost. If I make 2 trips its 6%, and if I'm luck enough to make 3 trips its only 3% of my total operating expense for the season. At that rate I don't think its worth the discussion. What would the cost of a 3 day permit be? $30 each? If that was the case I'd save 3% of my total cost for that first trip. There are plenty of other areas I could cut back to save 3%. I don't see needing to save $15 or so per sled if you can afford to spend a thousand bucks in 4 days. Afterall, you come up to ride and even if you ride off the trail, you need the trail to get to your playground.

 

[whitedust]

It has been done and permits really should be at $60

Then we are all doomed by spending more than we take in.LOL MSA + MI states per PR1 that ROI is not there for anything but a 1 year MI Trail Permit & that is the end of this thread & debate. No ROI then will never happen simple as that. I assume you are speaking for the MSA + MI & this subject has been researched & is not doable. Can you post supporting data to your statements?

 

[buddah2]

If MSA Or MI is interested they need to do the supporting maketing study to expand the market & apply an ROI to the weekend permit or 4 day permit whatever is considered. Simple color coding should work well for time periods of each month only need month color 4 week colors & can be seen at a distance. Does not seem very difficult to me if the will of the MSA & MI wants to do it they can. Keep it simple & inexpensive to broaden the market of riders to MI. Makes sense to me.

I don't have an answer to the base question but I don't believe your suggestion would be a workable solution either. No matter what temp measure the state designs some "yahoo" will attempt to subvert it. Whether that be using a temp sticker from a different month or whatever. Looking strictly from the enforcement side, weigh the cost of a ticket for no permit versus the cost of the permit.

 

[MZEMS2]

Please folks remember 100% of that trail permit $'s now goes to the trails, and clubs, before only a percent went towards purchases for groomers and clubs would have to purchase the remainder, through club loans, which was a monthly payment ,with years like this it was a hardship on a club. We now get 100% of our groomers paid, the trail money does not go into the state of Mich. general fund, it only goes to SNOWMOBILE TRAILS, not 4 wheeler trails, walking trails or anything else. This increase in permits has helped our area clubs recieve $300,000 plus groomers free of charge! We get paid with that money for miles groomed, for fuel , parts and maintances, and for the clubs that don't volunteer it pays the groomers wages.

This should remove any doubt you have about paying such a minute amount to play in the snow. Ya gotta pay to play folks. Snowmobiling is nothing more than a money pit, but it's a fun money pit when it snows.....

 

[polarisrider1]

October 2012

Funding:Where Are We and What’s Left?

I can’t tell you how many times over the summer months when the conversation has turn to trails, grooming and last season that people have said, “We didn’t have much snow, so nobody was grooming. There should be a ton of money left in the snowmobile trail improvement program for this season’s trails.”

While there wasn’t a lot of riding going on last season because of the weather, trail permit sales were also down. No one was riding, and no one was buying trail permits.

During the 2011-12 season, 124,287 trail permits were sold. During a fairly good winter in Michigan, there is usually 175,000 trail permits sold.

The snowmobile program was down 50,713 permits. Of each $45 permit sold, $43.53 goes out to the trail. That means $2,207,536 was not available to go out on the trails.

Now you are probably still saying that we didn’t ride and didn’t groom, so we should not have spent that much snowmobile program money.

The answer is yes and no. A lot of things still had to be done in anticipation of the season. There was less grooming done last season, except for the west end of the Upper Peninsula. However, keep in mind, all snowmobile trails still had to be brushed and signed in preparation of the season. The 69 grant sponsors are reimbursed around $100 a mile for signing and brushing.

Also, there were trails that had to be graded because ATVs and 4-wheelers ripped them up during the summer. Trails have to be signed, brushed and if needed graded no matter what type of winter we have.

All 69 grant sponsors still had to pay for commercial liability insurance policies. Coverage must consist of $1million for each occurrence and $2 million aggregate

If trails are located on private property, grant sponsors still had to secure leases, and in some cases landowners were paid a stipend for the lease. This is paid even when we don’t have a good winter, and even if there isn’t a lot of grooming going on.

Special maintenance projects are also paid for through the snowmobile program. Those projects consist of culverts, bridge repairs, trail reroutes, and any restoration damaged cause from previous year. There are also unexpected major equipment repair costs that are cost- shared between the grant sponsor and the snowmobile program

In June, we also look to see what program money is left and determine how many pieces of equipment (groomers and drags) can be purchased.

Tractors run from $150,000 to $225,000 each. Drags cost around $25,000. We usually know how much is left by now and usually purchase from 12-15 pieces of equipment. We will only purchase five pieces of equipment this year.

A Quick look at the Budget

Of the $12 million 2011-12 snowmobile program budget, $10 million was budgeted for the ground and $2 million was slated for sheriffs and law enforcement.

Preliminary numbers show that trail permit and registrations brought in $5.5 in revenue and gas tax monies brought in another $2 million in revenue. As you can see revenue was down!

By now, you are probably asking what the exact numbers are. Well, we don’t have exact numbers yet. Our program representative at the Department of Natural Resources (DNR) in Lansing has been off on a medical leave, so numbers are late in being released. When MSA gets those numbers we will share them with you, the user.

We do know that a lot of preparation goes into this budget and snowmobile trail permits will remain at $45 through 2016.

The State’s Budget Process

Another cold hard fact is that snowmobile registration numbers have dwindled in Michigan. The state budgets five years in advance and budgets are based on registration estimates from 2007.

Since 2009 Michigan has lost more than one million jobs. A percentage of those people who held those jobs recreated on snowmobiles, boats and ATVs. Those people left the state because of their job loss, and no longer continue to recreate in Michigan. Consequently, the snowmobile program has had less money coming in from registrations. Snowmobile registrations dropped by 30,000 in 2009. Because of the lack of snow last season, registrations dropped another 30,000.

Again the state, budgets five years in advance. Snowmobile program numbers are based on pre-2007 registrations. Of course none of us could foresee 2009. We don’t think we will get that full 30,000 lost in 2009 back.

 

[indy_500]

Indy where did you purchase MI trail permit in Eagle River? I have been buying at Lando BP no place in Phelps sells MI permit either.

Citgo right across from mac dons

 

[Ramsey]

Boy you opened a can of worms here Jack.

I'm with Pitch on this. And just to save everybody the trouble of checking my profile, yes we are friends, yes we travel to the Northwoods together.

I don't have a thirty thousand dollar truck, I don't have a twelve thousand dollar snowmobile either. The point that he was trying to make is just that if MI were to offer a one, two or three day pass for say half the cost of a season pass people like us would be willing to purchase them and travel into MI for a day. At $45 we will not go to MI so the State of Michigan is losing out on the eighty or so dollars that they could have received from our group if they offered the reduced rate pass.

I