Trayvon Martin

[polarisrider1]

After all is said and done and the dust has settled you can say that the injuries were "insignificant" and that his life wasn't in danger.

But what matters at that moment was did he feel his life was in danger, not what some guy 6 months later and 2000 miles away thinks.

I will be the first to say I've never been in a fight before, only punches I've thrown were to my brother as a young kid messing around. If somebody was on top of my throwing punches I too would "puss" out and defend my life because I can't see the future to know what will or won't happen as a result of being attacked.

Let's just hope we never get put into that situation. I would shoot the other guy in a heart beat to save my life, but would grieve the decission for the remainder of my life.

 

[Deleted member 10829]

I take it you didn't click the link of GZ's examiner, a professional who stated under oath that GZ did not sustain significant injuries. Here it is again:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=sP_2OcpNQBo

Watched it. The link shows the medical expert for the Prosecution (TM). In a trial both sides argue their cases or tell their side of the story and the jury decides how much they believe. The medical expert for the Defense (GZ), De Mayo, claimed that the injuries were consistent with six impacts to the sidewalk. The head was bloodied by something, that cannot be disputed.

If anyone followed the trial closely, you would know that the Prosecutions medical expert looked like a fool and incompetent and the Defense guy, De Mayo, looked like the pro he was with an excellent reputation. It wasn't even close. That was the opinion of the experts.

 

[lenny]

After all is said and done and the dust has settled you can say that the injuries were "insignificant" and that his life wasn't in danger.

But what matters at that moment was did he feel his life was in danger, not what some guy 6 months later and 2000 miles away thinks.

I will be the first to say I've never been in a fight before, only punches I've thrown were to my brother as a young kid messing around. If somebody was on top of my throwing punches I too would "puss" out and defend my life because I can't see the future to know what will or won't happen as a result of being attacked.

I cannot say that I disagree with you. At the same time I am not alone in this issue. I urge you to listen to the 2 video of GZ being interviewed by police the day after and re-interviewed some time later. Here is where some of the problem lies, the media has never been worse at reporting the truth without a bias. They have created a mess that most of us are impacted by to some degree. The internet has a load of crap that we sift through also. The pics of TM were pathetic although he still is a young looking kid but a 12 yr old pic. media ought to be ashamed of such stupidy. They also report facts to fit their political and racial agenda's, another disaster. It greatly adds to the already great divide we experience in this country. I posted a pic early on in this thread and it showed a 20 some yr old guy full of tat's. This photo was circulating the web and many many people believed it was TM. The first time I saw it I said "what", that turd deserved what he got and after a few minutes it started to register that I was thinking just how someone wanted me to think. That pic all by itself really got me interested in this event.

I have re-read this entire thread and I do have some problem with my own posts as I allow my emotions get the best of me and I do apologize and specifically for saying GZ is a liar. Calling someone a liar is a harsh statement and to be honest I do not really believe him to be a liar. I do believe he has lies but to be called a liar is more in line with a habit of lying. I do not believe GZ is a compulsive liar. I also have added some over the top sarcasm to my posts and probably offended some. Chevytahoe, I owe you an appology for just that,,,so,, I am sorry.

Let's just hope we never get put into that situation. I would shoot the other guy in a heart beat to save my life, but would grieve the decission for the remainder of my life.

You know, I would shoot to kill also but my level of receiving violence may just be higher than most. I say this because life is so sacred to me and it's a mistake I cannot live with unless I was sure it had to be done. A good friend of mine has a concealed carry permit and I was gonna go get the same thing but honestly, I do not think it would be good for me to carry so I will not at this time. I am still immature and it would only risk myself of someone else's life more so than protecting. I do own a gun and keep it locked up at home within easy reach. IMO the grounds for killing a guy is to loose and open to interpretation and it's just not worth it. I'd rather take a severe beating or maimed before I killed someone but that's just me and I do not expect people to think like me nor think my thinking is the standard for all to abide by.

Summary: GZ made many mistakes that set the stage for disaster. TM is no saint but we are taking death here. Now we are seeing all kinds of stuff floating around the web saying TM was on a new kind of high, a mixture of sugar and some other stuff, forgot the word. Point is, as long as we can paint the picture of a "thugy, cocky, typical black male" (which I disagree with strongly) we will continue to drink the koolaid fed to us my race batters. If we circulate BS like that we are subject to holding some responsibility to the great divide we are all experiencing.

I understand I am in the minority here, I am not defending TM. My motive is to defend life and if that upsets some it is worth the strife. I am strongly questioning the discernment of the verdict regardless that it cannot and will not be change. I stand guilty of strong communication and digging deep into all the circumstances because life is worth it, black or white, color makes no matter to me. My opinion is no more intelligent than the next guys. No doubt I have many errors in my statement, odds will have it. Finally, life is precious and our maker loves us deeply. I wonder if the author of life believes the taking of his creation is acceptable under these circumstances? I cannot answer this question with certainty,,,,,,, can you?

 

[Woodtic]

Lenny ,I thought you were working at my camp today? I'm glade I'm paying you buy a quote and not by the hour.lol Where were you standing to get that good a signal? Seriously,I have a hard time getting a good signal.

 

[lenny]

If anyone followed the trial closely, you would know that the Prosecutions medical expert looked like a fool and incompetent and the Defense guy, De Mayo, looked like the pro he was with an excellent reputation. It wasn't even close. That was the opinion of the experts.

well if we play by the rules than this defense guy was bias also, straw-man argument. Now if you were to look for yourself you will see his head has little to no swelling, slight abrasions and a tiny cut consistent with a scuffle. Police said in his interview that his injuries were basically none existent and that typically in a head smashing into the concrete they see skull fractures, profuse bleeding and cuts and gashes, none of what GZ got. GZ said TM grabbed his head and repeatedly smashed it into the concrete, he said this happened! There is no way in heck a head could receive such a beating and not bleed profusely, or need sutures, or have a mellon sized head from swelling. Does GZ have a "super head" not subject to show injuries? I cannot believe you guys are even trying to defend this position and believe the lie that his head was smashed into the concrete. If his head took a few punches on the concrete than the back of the head would receive impact from the blows to the front and guess what, it would be consistent with what we seen. You can see his face took punches and he received a bloody nose and a broken nose, big deal. Stop following people in the dark and not identifying yourself and you would not have got your butt kicked,,,,,but if you make these simple common sense mistake the situation escalates and all is up for grabs.

 

[lenny]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=RxMJi4zWGoo

at time 16:12 is interesting and GZ does not reply, So here we have a seasoned homicide detective saying GZ "faired well." 19:46-26:24 is interesting, GZ makes reference again to dispatch asking if he is following him and GZ says yes. In this interview at 28:34 GZ says a funny, not real honest statement but start it at 28:21 through 29:25

 

[united]

oh, so what you are saying is that this doctor was biased or lied,,,I see. Maybe we needed a different medical doc for the defense!

So what you are saying is that the doctor for the prosecution was biased or lied? Yes both medical experts were biased, yes. It just depends which one the jury believes. The same in every trial.

I prefer we just look at the picture of the back of GZ head and draw our own conclusion. It was mentioned earlier in this thread that his head was absolutely not pounded into the sidewalk. How did his head get bloodied if it was not pounded?

 

[whitedust]

After all is said & done I do agree with the verdict per FL law. Even the jury said post trail 2 wanted man slaughter 1 wanted murder 2 but could not get there via the law. I think this is why no jurors looked at GZ when the verdict was read not what they wanted to do but what they had to do.

 

[jebjk1]

Plus, there were no black people on the jury. So GZ had that going for him...

 

[whitedust]

Here you go Lenny from the mouth of a juror interview today.
http://gma.yahoo.com/george-zimmerman-juror-says-got-away-murder-180513862--abc-news-topstories.html

 

[lenny]

So what you are saying is that the doctor for the prosecution was biased or lied? Yes both medical experts were biased, yes. It just depends which one the jury believes. The same in every trial.



I prefer we just look at the picture of the back of GZ head and draw our own conclusion. It was mentioned earlier in this thread that his head was absolutely not pounded into the sidewalk. How did his head get bloodied if it was not pounded?

I disagre, I am unaware of a medic for the defense. The guy Mspease was referring to was the guy who did the autopsy and he never even seen GZ, it is not his job to treat injuries, he deals with dead people, specifically TM. GZ was treated by the paramedic on the scene and choose not to go to the hospital. As far as I know that was the extent of medical attention immediately after the incident. There were 2 small incisions on the back of his head and we know how blood can flow from the head. One cut was 1/4" and the other just about 1/2" and he never got a stitch. He probable would have got 2 stitches in the 1/2" cut if he had gone to ER. Paramedics did evaluate GZ and there was nothing that was of a serious nature that needed emergency attention. They just cleaned up his head and it was all he got. The paramedics came on scene 6 minutes after the call and were at GZ within 12 min after the shooting. The lady paramedic said he was done bleeding but his small incisions were still "moist." These facts back up the prosecution medic and the police homicide detectives perspectives which were stated. On scene he was checked for alertness and got a 15 for perfect alertness and the 3 tests they performed he passed with no issues. GZ did mention he was dizzy for a brief spell. He never passed out, threw up or fell over. That's why detective said he faired well for a guy who claimed such a beating.

 

[lenny]

If anyone followed the trial closely, you would know that the Prosecutions medical expert looked like a fool and incompetent and the Defense guy, De Mayo, looked like the pro he was with an excellent reputation. It wasn't even close. That was the opinion of the experts.

come on Mark, De Mayo did the autopsy on TM and has no dealings with GZ. What is the relevance of posting that. De mayo could not follow instruction and talked over everybody, cause a mess in the courtroom many times. He is a medical examiner for 2 counties and does autopsy's. He didn't look at the head of GZ. i watched the entire video and defense was frustrated with DeMayo so I have no idea what good you think he did. The professional who commented on GZ injuries stated his injuries were insignificant. Also, the homicide detective Chris Serino who interviewed GZ said the same thing.

Less than 1 total inch of cuts (2 small cut) on the head, virtually no swelling and little blood that stopped flowing quickly is not a serious injury. iF GZ didn not say he was in fear of his life he would be in prison, so what would you say. he had to say that and no one can argue! He got away with murder, I would say man slaughter

 

[chevytaHOE5674]

In this situation what matters is did HE feel that HIS life was in danger.

Not what were his injuries after the attack was stopped by lethal force. Do police wait until after they receive life threatening injuries before using lethal force? How about the military? Why do I have to subject myself to an unwarranted beating unable to defend myself?

I can tell you without batting an eye that is somebody was on top of me throwing punches no matter if my head is hitting anything or not I wouldn't hesitate to use what force/power I have to end the threat, because that would fit my/the laws criteria for fear of serious injury or death.

 

[lenny]

In this situation what matters is did HE feel that HIS life was in danger.

Not what were his injuries after the attack was stopped by lethal force. Do police wait until after they receive life threatening injuries before using lethal force? How about the military? Why do I have to subject myself to an unwarranted beating unable to defend myself?

I can tell you without batting an eye that is somebody was on top of me throwing punches no matter if my head is hitting anything or not I wouldn't hesitate to use what force/power I have to end the threat, because that would fit my/the laws criteria for fear of serious injury or death.

Just so happens I have a cop sitting next to me as I type and he has offered up some valuable thoughts. My buddy Keith is a cop in Illinois, he and his family is up for a week and we have been talking about this a bit. A cop has a "police use of force continuum" as a tool to understand their response to the threat. A cop cannot use deadly force in a fist fight unless it escalates to aggravated assault. A fist fight can result with a cop using a night stick or other object but he cannot shoot them unless the assault becomes aggravated meaning he is receiving great harm. He just cannot fear that the punch is going to hit him and call it aggravated assault. If he believes he is loosing consciousness he can up the response with deadly force because the assault has become aggravated. A weapon is immediately classified as aggravated assault and can be meet with deadly force. A cop cannot hit a suspect in the head with a stick in a fist fight. They can only use equal or greater force meaning they can step it up beyond what there are dealing with. A fist fight can remain a fist fight or the can use arm bars, wrist locks etc, beat the suspect with a flash light, stick or whatever devices is approved but he cannot shoot them unless the criteria is meet for aggravated assault. You are jumping right to aggravated assault and if you are okay with going to jail of a murder or man slaughter change than that's your call but I really hate to see you make that mistake and pay for it.

I can tell you without batting an eye that is somebody was on top of me throwing punches no matter if my head is hitting anything or not I wouldn't hesitate to use what force/power I have to end the threat, because that would fit my/the laws criteria for fear of serious injury or death.

In this exact situation how you have described it, you will go to prison for shooting someone because the threat is assault, not aggravated. You cannot just call a fist fight aggravated assault. Because you do not want to experience a beating does not justify aggravated assault. You cannot take the liberty to classify an assault as aggravated assault. The fear that you could sustain great bodily harm or death by punches is highly speculative . If you receive a great blow and your jaw is shattered that becomes aggravated, even a broken nose in some cases I have learned, (in favor of GZ winning.) I am not saying this to argue with you but I really want you to understand this just in case the situation were to happen. The element of great bodily harm or fear of death is required, not the fear that aggravated assault could happen. This is also a good time to remember what GZ said right after he shot TM. GZ said that soon after he shot TM, TM either rolled off or GZ pushed TM off himself and immediately GZ mounted TM. GZ said he thought TM was using something in his hands while he was being beat which "could" step up the assault to aggravated,,,,,conveniently I will add.

GZ had aspiration to become a cop but later changed his mine to study law and possible be a judge. He was and is still studying law. he new his stuff and said all the right things. Nothing was found on TM other than his tea, candy and a phone. No weapons which would deem an aggravated assault thus meet with deadly force.


GZ injuries are borderline and he won the trial by having a good defense and a poor prosecution. The fact GZ refused treatment may have worked to his advantage.

 

[lenny]

here is why GZ won. In order for prosecution to win a murder conviction, they had tio show GZ intended to kill TM with a depraved mind, hatred, malice, evil intent or ill will, no chance for that. TM is dead and cannot talk, witnesses are slim so most info is based on GZ words. All this has to be proved beyond a reasonable doubt.

It's a crying shame we kill each other and the justice system has it's loop holes and that one can easily slip through.....

I'm finally finished with this thread, have fun fellows!

 

[Deleted member 10829]

I'm finally finished with this thread, have fun fellows!

Don't make promises you can't keep! I remember you saying that a hundred or so posts back.

 

[sixball]

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=608832945815209

 

[lenny]

Don't make promises you can't keep! I remember you saying that a hundred or so posts back.

As along as I need to fix all the errors you guys throw out there, why not

 

[chevytaHOE5674]

In this exact situation how you have described it, you will go to prison for shooting someone because the threat is assault, not aggravated. You cannot just call a fist fight aggravated assault.

No where in Michigans laws does it state you can only use lethal force in cases of aggravated assault.

An individual who has not or is not engaged in the commission of a crime at the time he or she uses deadly force may use deadly force against another individual anywhere he or she has the legal right to be with no duty to retreat if either of the following applies:

(a) The individual honestly and reasonably believes that the use of deadly force is necessary to prevent the imminent death of or imminent great bodily harm to himself or herself or to another individual.

(b) The individual honestly and reasonably believes that the use of deadly force is necessary to prevent the imminent sexual assault of himself or herself or of another individual.

So walking down the street I'm committing no crime. Somebody gets up in my face and gets me to the ground punching me, I will honestly and reasonably believe lethal force is required to prevent great bodily harm or death. Seems like I've met all the legal criteria.

 

[whitedust]

Just for the record comparing GZ to a trained LEO has no bearing on the case what so ever. We know GZ had zero skills a LEO is a trained professional. Apples & Oranges.