UP Signage Revisited

russholio

Well-known member
I'm pressing the issue to see people posting serious content. So many just blerp out a blanket statement like they did when this issue arouse initially. In their head they believed there was gonna be people dying and crashes all over,,well it didn't and on the contrary for the most part the trail experience has been positive. I have no problem with complaints but let there be some meat behind the complaint. Lets allow the complaint to take us to a better understand to see some sort of change. Often we see a complaint and that's it, it served no purpose to improve the situation so why bother.

I agree. To me, a complaint -- or an accolade, for that matter -- without an explanation or some reasoning is not very useful. "I think the new system sucks" really is of no benefit at all. Neither is "I think the new system is great". Explanations in both examples are far more helpful than the statement is.

I think, when I voice my opposition to this in previous threads and in this one, that I did my best to explain why and not just throw out a blanket statement. At least, that was my intent. Whether or not somebody took it as I intended is not something I can control.

At any rate....if this signage issue is the worst thing I have to worry about (it isn't), then I reckon I've got it pretty good! :)
 
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lenny

Guest
I agree. To me, a complaint -- or an accolade, for that matter -- without an explanation or some reasoning is not very useful. "I think the new system sucks" really is of no benefit at all. Neither is "I think the new system is great". Explanations in both examples are far more helpful than the statement is.

I think, when I voice my opposition to this in previous threads and in this one, that I did my best to explain why and not just throw out a blanket statement. At least, that was my intent. Whether or not somebody took it as I intended is not something I can control.

At any rate....if this signage issue is the worst thing I have to worry about (it isn't), then I reckon I've got it pretty good! :)

good point
 

Skylar

Super Moderator
Staff member
When I get some time I will put up a short vid I took while riding the trails in Togwotee this past week. The people who thought the removal of some of the signs on the Michigan trail system would be catastrophic, would not even be able to get around out there.
 

snobuilder

Well-known member
Seem to be alot of comments on bridge ahead signs being missed. I found the actual bridge signs all in place and was able to see them 100 yards away so if i wanted to slow down for the bridge for some reason, I had plenty of time to do so.
I'm glad they are gone. the bridge ahead sign created more danger than not having them because so many sledders would get scared and hit the brakes, which gathers up snow and creates the hellatious bridge moguls that cause ppl to hit the brakes in anticipation of running into.
 
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Polarice

New member
When I get some time I will put up a short vid I took while riding the trails in Togwotee this past week. The people who thought the removal of some of the signs on the Michigan trail system would be catastrophic, would not even be able to get around out there.

But they didn't remove the signs that were already there...did they?
 

Polarice

New member
Polarice what Skylar is saying is there are no signs. Besides who needs bridges let alone bridge signs?

Willeys school of bridge building 101 for more details.

Yeah I agree with some signs being removed; chevron, bridge, curvy trail, blablabla. Turn signs not so much. My point is that since they were never there it makes MI even stupider for what they did with removing signs.
 
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lenny

Guest
Yeah I agree with some signs being removed; chevron, bridge, curvy trail, blablabla. Turn signs not so much. My point is that since they were never there it makes MI even stupider for what they did with removing signs.


maybe they were stupid for putting them up in the first place and now were back to normal,,,yea,,, that's it!
 

snobuilder

Well-known member
quite a leap from sayin the bridge ahead signs weren't missed to sayin we don't need bridges...some a them gullies is real deep!
 

polarisrider1

New member
quite a leap from sayin the bridge ahead signs weren't missed to sayin we don't need bridges...some a them gullies is real deep!

Yes it is, but some really stretch the signage removal too! I see it as if they feel they can not operate a snowmobile safely without the government dictating to them with signage then maybe they need to find a hobby that fits them better. Snowmobiling is not rocket science. People just need to slow down and pay attention while sledding.
 

polarisrider1

New member
quite a leap from sayin the bridge ahead signs weren't missed to sayin we don't need bridges...some a them gullies is real deep!

Personally, I like gullies!!! Especially ones with creeks at the bottom!!! But then again I remember using old pallets for bridges and building my own with branches and garden tools. Adds to the fun!
 
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POLARISDAN

New member
and it had been determined it was due to poor signage,,, I honestly do not remember. It's hard for me to comprehend why we need so much info to ride a sled but I guess some people need it and depend on it. I believe it is easy to ride a sled and respond to condition, sleds and trail issues. Personally NO signs would be ideal except stop and corners. If you have time to respond to all conditions that's good. If you do not have time than you are going to fast,, simple as that. Just because your sled does 100 does not mean it has to. Speed will dictate reaction time and the person pushing the flipper needs to realize this!

yea im in agreement on some signs, but some others are needed, especially bridge ahead in bad weather..the prior discussion was the blowouts before the bridges that send a few riders off to hospitals and towing out wrecked sleds, and i do not believe any were speed related..i was fortunate as what i hit just just bad enuf to be nasty, but stayed on my sled..bridges are dangerous, specially at night in bad weather..imo signs need to be posted
 

POLARISDAN

New member
I agree. To me, a complaint -- or an accolade, for that matter -- without an explanation or some reasoning is not very useful. "I think the new system sucks" really is of no benefit at all. Neither is "I think the new system is great". Explanations in both examples are far more helpful than the statement is.

I think, when I voice my opposition to this in previous threads and in this one, that I did my best to explain why and not just throw out a blanket statement. At least, that was my intent. Whether or not somebody took it as I intended is not something I can control.

At any rate....if this signage issue is the worst thing I have to worry about (it isn't), then I reckon I've got it pretty good! :)

but there were also some pretty informitive posts that started out as b**tching or complaints..so i dont know..i think if somebody got something to say, they shuld be able to say it, and be prepared for some possible bashing if its really stupid or wrong
 

russholio

Well-known member
but there were also some pretty informitive posts that started out as b**tching or complaints..so i dont know..i think if somebody got something to say, they shuld be able to say it, and be prepared for some possible bashing if its really stupid or wrong

That's true. But sometimes people are so opinionated (and I'm not pointing fingers or accusing anybody in particular) that they just have no use for an opposing viewpoint, even if it's well-stated and backed up with reasoning. What I'm saying is, even if something isn't "stupid" or "wrong", some people who don't agree with it will find reason to bash because it doesn't fit their beliefs.
 

craze1cars

New member
I didn't notice a substantial difference at all. I probably rode 80% of the trails in the UP west of Amasa this season, including almost all of the Keweenaw.

I've always thought trails were oversigned, so I was glad to see MI made an effort to dial it down a notch, and I always supported their decision to do this from day 1.

After a season on the trails I frankly still find it to be oversigned, just mostly the "style" of the signs had changed. But I have no big complaints, and I certainly didn't come across a single problem nor hear a single complaint from anyone. It was a non-topic of discussion in all bars and restaurants...never even came up when I was around. A buddy from Minnesota rode with me quite a bit this year, though he's a very experienced and fast rider, he had never ridden the UP in his life. So I had warned him about proposed changes on what was about to be our first ride of the year, since neither of us really knew what to expect. And I allowed him to lead quite often also, so he was indeed at the mercy of the signs, and not just following me. Halfway thru the day he did comment on how nicely the trails were signed and he didn't understand why MI was making such a big deal promoting the changes via occasional signs hanging in restaurants, etc. That was the only discussion I had or heard about the signs, and it was a conversation that I had started. So I can confirm that the new signage was a complete non-issue for that particular fast-riding U.P. newbie, as well as for someone like me (and many others I rode with) who has been riding these trails for well over 30 years.

Overall I honestly got the impression that almost nobody noticed or cared about the changes.

As for the discussion on 'Bridge ahead' signs? I certainly respect other opinions from my own...but MY honest opinion, and this is not a bash of any type or calling anyone specific out...if a person can't see an entire bridge before reaching it, and it surprises him/her because there wasn't a warning sign for it...that person either 1. Needs to work on eyesight...or 2. Was driving too fast for present visibility/conditions. A bridge railing (or warning post at the edge of an un-railed bridge) is no different from a tree at the edge of a trail...and how many of THOSE are out there along the trails without warning signs LOL?! I assure you I'm a fast rider. And when I ride fast I look WAY ahead. If I can't see WAY ahead I do NOT ride fast. So whenever I see a post or tree trunk or stick at ANY speed, I simply drive around it...and on the off chance I might hit one someday, I take full responsibility for making the mistake...no matter how or if it was signed. But maybe that's just me....
 
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whitedust

Well-known member
As far as trail signage I see 2 states WI & MI going in opposite directions as far as trail signage. WI Vilas County very detailed in their trail signage & even added solar powered trail signs on trail 45 north of Eagle River to remind people to ride safe & stay sober. In Vilas every trail twist, turn, bridge, big bumps,stop signs you name it it has signage. I don't view this as clutter in anyway plenty of trees on intimate trails & signs enhance my riding experience. Vilas also wants to widen trails to 16 feet for safer groomer & snowmobile passing. On the other hand MI says they want to reduce sign clutter, sign trails only where sharp turns, lose bridge ahead & other signs to make riders slow down & not ride by signs. For me I ride by rhythm take all trail info in & just ride many times on autopilot since I know the trails in both states so not many surprises for me. So IMO only it is more of a newbie convenience to have detailed trail signage in the area they choose to ride. I rode further south this year in WI on trails I have not ridden before & the trail signage was very helpful to keep me safe & going in the correct direction. Seems ironic to me that WI & MI take completely different views of trail signage in the name of snowmobiler of trail safety.LOL So overall I never expect JD membership to agree on trail signage since 2 bordering states have such opposing views on the matter.:)
 
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lenny

Guest
I didn't notice a substantial difference at all. I probably rode 80% of the trails in the UP west of Amasa this season, including almost all of the Keweenaw.

I've always thought trails were oversigned, so I was glad to see MI made an effort to dial it down a notch, and I always supported their decision to do this from day 1.

After a season on the trails I frankly still find it to be oversigned, just mostly the "style" of the signs had changed. But I have no big complaints, and I certainly didn't come across a single problem nor hear a single complaint from anyone. It was a non-topic of discussion in all bars and restaurants...never even came up when I was around. A buddy from Minnesota rode with me quite a bit this year, though he's a very experienced and fast rider, he had never ridden the UP in his life. So I had warned him about proposed changes on what was about to be our first ride of the year, since neither of us really knew what to expect. And I allowed him to lead quite often also, so he was indeed at the mercy of the signs, and not just following me. Halfway thru the day he did comment on how nicely the trails were signed and he didn't understand why MI was making such a big deal promoting the changes via occasional signs hanging in restaurants, etc. That was the only discussion I had or heard about the signs, and it was a conversation that I had started. So I can confirm that the new signage was a complete non-issue for that particular fast-riding U.P. newbie, as well as for someone like me (and many others I rode with) who has been riding these trails for well over 30 years.

Overall I honestly got the impression that almost nobody noticed or cared about the changes.

As for the discussion on 'Bridge ahead' signs? I certainly respect other opinions from my own...but MY honest opinion, and this is not a bash of any type or calling anyone specific out...if a person can't see an entire bridge before reaching it, and it surprises him/her because there wasn't a warning sign for it...that person either 1. Needs to work on eyesight...or 2. Was driving too fast for present visibility/conditions. A bridge railing (or warning post at the edge of an un-railed bridge) is no different from a tree at the edge of a trail...and how many of THOSE are out there along the trails without warning signs LOL?! I assure you I'm a fast rider. And when I ride fast I look WAY ahead. If I can't see WAY ahead I do NOT ride fast. So whenever I see a post or tree trunk or stick at ANY speed, I simply drive around it...and on the off chance I might hit one someday, I take full responsibility for making the mistake...no matter how or if it was signed. But maybe that's just me....

Very well said! You hit the nail on the head and explained it the way I see it but struggle to express especially about the bridge. Can you just image people riding a sled and failing to stay on the trail either hitting a tree or bridge and blaming lack of a sign, it just defies common sense. Some people call it over opinionated or no room for opposing viewpoints. I call it lack of common sense,,,as much as that hurt to say I have no other way to interpret this.

If a rider has not enough time to make a decision that allows himself to stay safe than they are going to fast. Now, I have hit trees, gully's along side of bridges when I missed the turn and missed the entire bridge and wrecked my sled, sign posts but never and never do I think it was the fault of anyone or lack of info offered to me. Simply we make mistakes because we are doing something we love to do that gets our adrenaline flowing. Mistakes are just that, improper decisions.

This topic does not have to be one camp vrs the other camp. Signs do help us but ultimately the sign is not there to excuse us from safe operation. It is not a safty net to protect us. You must ride in accordance with your senses and all additional info is bonus.
 
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lenny

Guest
As far as trail signage I see 2 states WI & MI going in opposite directions as far as trail signage. WI Vilas County very detailed in their trail signage & even added solar powered trail signs on trail 45 north of Eagle River to remind people to ride safe & stay sober. In Vilas every trail twist, turn, bridge, big bumps,stop signs you name it it has signage. I don't view this as clutter in anyway plenty of trees on intimate trails & signs enhance my riding experience. Vilas also wants to widen trails to 16 feet for safer groomer & snowmobile passing. On the other hand MI says they want to reduce sign clutter, sign trails only where sharp turns, lose bridge ahead & other signs to make riders slow down & not ride by signs. For me I ride by rhythm take all trail info in & just ride many times on autopilot since I know the trails in both states so not many surprises for me. So IMO only it is more of a newbie convenience to have detailed trail signage in the area they choose to ride. I rode further south this year in WI on trails I have not ridden before & the trail signage was very helpful to keep me safe & going in the correct direction. Seems ironic to me that WI & MI take completely different views of trail signage in the name of snowmobiler of trail safety.LOL So overall I never expect JD membership to agree on trail signage since 2 bordering states have such opposing views on the matter.:)

all opinions aside! Lets look at a seasons worth of experience. I have room for opposing views, trust me. Lets looks at the preliminary experiences of people that have ridden the trail system and have comented on their experience. Now am I asking to much or domination this topic without reason?

Michigan sought to implement a plan to improve safety, reducing clutter is the by-product of the plan. We have heard many statement of riders who have experienced this new plan and the result SO FAR have proven that the plan has not failed and in fact the riders see virtually no difference. What we have seen to date are positive experiences with very little negative comments. Am I making anything up here folks? Am I bias because I live in and support Mi decision? Do I have no room for opposing views? How can we ignore the evidence and continue to defend a position based on speculation. People, the plan has been implemented, it's here! The plan SO FAR based on rider experience has proven to produce the desired results and less signage demands a rider to ride with a heightened sense of surroundings and that my friend is a good basis for safty.

If WI has a different plan, good for them. Maybe and just maybe there are 2 different ways to come to the same place. Signs will not make it less safe.

Now for a funny! If you need to be coddled and suckle on your mommies nipple for survival, so be it!
 

russholio

Well-known member
Okay.....since we're on the subject (again) here is my take, from A-Z, as simply and as clearly as I can put it. No slam against the opinions against any others, just my opinion.

First, kudos to MSA for recognizing a problem (too many people riding irresponsibly and unsafely fast) and deciding to take a stand against it. I couldn't agree more. However -- the problem didn't spring up in just one season, so why was it necessary to try and correct it in one season? For better or for worse, many riders have become accustomed to riding with plenty of signage. I believe a more responsible approach would have been to implement it over the course of several seasons, i.e., "wean" people off of it. The change would have been more transparent and seamless, and before long nobody would even realize there'd been a change.

Also.....when portions of the Huron-Manistee National Forest were in danger of being closed to snowmobiles, MSA waged a mail and email campaign urging members to write to the authorities to voice their opposition. Why was there no such campaign seeking members' input on ways of correcting the problem?

I am an MSA life member and would be the first to say they do a TON of good, but in this case I don't think they handled the issue appropriately.

Now, let's look at the reasons for the signage change (depending on which agency you talk to), in no particular order of importance:

1.) Reduce clutter -- mission accomplished, although personally, I never felt that signs were clutter or that they detracted from my riding experience or views of the woods.

2.) Reduce speed (or "sign-to-sign" riding). In theory, maybe. In the real world, I don't think the change is going to affect most of the people they want it to affect. People who ride responsibly and cautiously are going to be even more so; Ricky Racer is still going to be Ricky Racer. You can't mandate common sense, nor can you mandate courtesy and respect for your fellow rider. No sign or amount of signs will change that.

3.) Reduce lawsuits. Again, maybe in theory. But I also believe the legal eagles will find a way around that. Consider the person who approaches a fence, reaches over to pet the dog, and gets bitten. Victim sues owner and wins, because owner should have known his/her dog might bite and didn't warn the victim. Fair enough.....so the owner puts up a "beware of dog" sign. Victim #2 reaches over the fence (ignoring the warning) to pet dog, and gets bitten. Victim #2 also sues owner and wins, because owner is knowingly harboring a "vicious" animal. Likewise -- rider blows unmarked turn, gets hurt, sues because there was no warning, or rider blows marked turn, and sues because club knew of a dangerous situation. In short, you can't win. It's just the way society is today and sadly, it's part of the cost of doing business.

At any rate....I will be the first to admit that I predicted doom and gloom, and that doesn't appear to have happened. I'm glad I was wrong. It also didn't affect my riding enjoyment any. I'm glad about that, too (although I wouldn't say that I saw any more or any less idiots coming around a corner too fast, on my side). In fairness, I think we need more than one season to make a full and fair analysis, but so far it really hasn't had much affect on my riding.
 
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