Will the new AXYS chassis take Polaris back to #1?

[whitedust]

I guess you havent seen the new ford commercials talking about how they shaved a bunch of weight off the F series, anything with less weight=more efficient, less friction...and trail riding no doubt weight makes a huge difference on or off trail i dont care what you say haha, theres a reason an apex cant go over the bumps nor handle like a doo or poo or cat 2s for that matter. It physics, cant do it

All the weight stuff was marketing by Doo now what???

LOL what you mean now what? that has helped get them and stay at the top of the market, and the ACE 4s is lighter than any other 4s and those are selling like freaking hot cakes....

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And the only one threatening doo is poo, who has the same approach.......lighter=better.

its what everyone but the sunday strollers want

I have to say "no" or just did not make an impression with me everything I remember with ford trucks was stressing bulk bigger bolts stuff like that. I'll watch for that ad now you brought it to my attention.

Doo has been marketing weight reduction for many years & really not going in that direction anymore with Ace. Its' not a bad thing just plays to Poo 2s now since doo no where near the weight of poo Rush 600. I'm not saying doo makes bad sleds because they are not light 2s weight champ in fact I don't care & think doo is headed in better direction than poo right now...at least for me. The Apex handles bumps just fine via your own comparo for trail riders maybe doo is better again I don't really care both good sleds for the market they are intended. For me sled choice all starts with the engine & must get me home in deep snow if it can't do that then not in the mix for me. For those that want to race on trails, bang bumps, light is right but for my typical 250 mile trail days 4s engine is ultra important & comfort is king, like eps,... let Rickey have the light bump sled & bang bump & jump those days are over for me. lol

 

[whitedust]

What sales guys (salesman) will never understand in a discussion with an accountant (cost accountant) is that you can make just as much money, if not MORE by selling at 2-3 points less margin, but higher volume. It's all about elasticity of demand, and the effect a drop in price has on demand (volume).
I'd say Polaris is doing very well, and probably poised to move equal to or past Doo in the coming years in volume sales.
Volume means a lot in my world, so there's something to be said for being number one in sales.
More volume also reduces unitized costs of production (setup and material costs) and therefore allows a manufacturer to discount if necessary, OR flat out drop prices to increase market share.
Besides cost reduction, in manufacturing, production volume is pretty high up on the list of priorities to control costs.

Poo not threatening doo for #1 spot just all hype not fact. When Poo is number 1 in sales please post here... LOL... mean while batting zero in 4s market & will never ever be #1 without 4s line up. That's a unit fact you can subtract from your volume pipe dreams. lol

 

[Hoosier]

I just looked at the newest snowtech issue. They are glowing about all the new sleds, as they always are this time of year. If you read the ski-doo section, they say Ski-doo is #1 in sales and has the highest market share they've ever had. I don't think ski doo will be giving that up anytime soon.

Snowtech's long-term test reports are very good though, and that is where the truth comes out. They sure liked the original rush when it came out, but then didn't seem to as much once they rode it all winter. I'm curious what they think about the Viper this year. They weren't too big on the new Cat chassis right when it came out.

 

[Deleted member 10829]

whitedust,

I have to ask; since you say Poo is going to have a hard time hanging on to second place, who is going to overtake them for 2nd? I think that's laughable. I don't think anyone that's honest can say Poo isn't moving in the right direction. King of the mountain by far and a potentially very good trail sled. I know you will only consider a 4s, but it's still a small portion of the overall market. Poo will get in the 4s game again, I have no doubt of that.

Being #1 matters in everything except sled sales. LOL

 

[Hoosier]

View attachment 46497

This is a little hard to read, but the vast majority of the total market is Doo and then Poo.

 

[Deleted member 10829]

Good info Hoosier! Those numbers we rarely ever see. It looks like it's from a Wells Fargo book? Someone's going to have to get moving to overtake Polaris at #2. Doo does have a good size lead that won't disappear quickly.

 

[G]

Wow, this is going to be a long summer. Already testy. What comes around goes around. Doo #1 today and for the last 10 or so years. Before that Pol #1 many years largely due to the 4 billion XLT's they sold. If I remember right Yami was even #1 for awhile in the early 80's. Still a boatload of old XC's out on the trails. Many of them Pol diehards not up for a Rush or Pro class sled. Maybe this new chassis is what they are waiting for. Pol all done designing their Indian motorcycle. Maybe they are turning their efforts at regaining #1 in sled sales. Who knows? The biggest obstacle to sales right now for all brands is the price tag. If Pol really got down and dirty they are the only ones that could come with a killer price on a killer new sled. They make a lot of money with their other products. They haven't been getting rich on sleds for a long time. If they undercut Doo by $1000 bucks a sled it wouldn't take long to gain market share. Cold hard cash still works.

 

[Hoosier]

Good info Hoosier! Those numbers we rarely ever see. It looks like it's from a Wells Fargo book? Someone's going to have to get moving to overtake Polaris at #2. Doo does have a good size lead that won't disappear quickly.

Looks like it but I have no idea where it's from - saw it on a forum somewhere.

Sled sales are hard to nail down for at least 2 reasons - one, the manufacturers have different fiscal years, so it's hard to compare apples to apples, and two, because they count a sale a tthe time the shipment goes to the dealer, not when the sale actually occurs to the consumer. But yes, it's hard to argue with the fact that Doo is #1 and growing its market share.

 

[whitedust]

whitedust,

I have to ask; since you say Poo is going to have a hard time hanging on to second place, who is going to overtake them for 2nd? I think that's laughable. I don't think anyone that's honest can say Poo isn't moving in the right direction. King of the mountain by far and a potentially very good trail sled. I know you will only consider a 4s, but it's still a small portion of the overall market. Poo will get in the 4s game again, I have no doubt of that.

Being #1 matters in everything except sled sales. LOL

If being #2 is important to you I agree Poo is number 2 but was not there 2 years ago & was running even with Cat.I just don't think poo has enough product diversity to knock off doo as simple as that unless they start price cutting their sleds but I just don't think that is in the cards. Who knew 2s could run this clean via EPA but I still get a headache breathing the stuff & would rather not. To me light 4s is the future of snowmobiles Doo, Cat & Yamaha all headed in that direction poo is not & that alone will bite them in market penetration never can be #1 without 4s simple as that.

 

[lenny]

haha doesnt mean they suck....its just the benchmark...what every manufacturers ultimate goal is? Isnt it?

Being market share #1 has its perks, no doubt. $$$$$$$ being the big one. Doo can risk more and also afford to lose more if they have a hiccup and it wont sink them. Not to mention the extra money to spend on R&D that if were strapped couldnt happen to move foward.

i think its odd poo isnt entering the 4s market. Its the future IMO. Maybe not in 5 years but 20 years the 2s will be a thing of the past...hope im wrong but i think its reality.

If Yamaha was so determined to be number 1 do you think that for the last 12 years they have been trying and just cannot make it? No, Yamaha has a slice of the pie in many things and the consistency they get in reliable 4s is bringing solid number to Yamaha, something they can depend on and that is stability. Stability will endure through tough times where others are extremely innovative and at the same time risky. I think the fight for number one makes you vulnerable and if you have a majority vested in sled market than stability is compromised.

 

[groomerdriver]

Poo not threatening doo for #1 spot just all hype not fact. When Poo is number 1 in sales please post here... LOL... mean while batting zero in 4s market & will never ever be #1 without 4s line up. That's a unit fact you can subtract from your volume pipe dreams. lol

SkiDoo has arguably (maybe no argument?) the most complete lineup of any sled OEM. 2s, 4s, ACE, eTec, short, medium and long track. Whatever trips your trigger, Doo likely has it. Can the other 3 OEM's say this? I don't see it. They'll be #1 for a long time.

 

[Deleted member 10829]

If being #2 is important to you I agree Poo is number 2 but was not there 2 years ago & was running even with Cat.I just don't think poo has enough product diversity to knock off doo as simple as that unless they start price cutting their sleds but I just don't think that is in the cards. Who knew 2s could run this clean via EPA but I still get a headache breathing the stuff & would rather not. To me light 4s is the future of snowmobiles Doo, Cat & Yamaha all headed in that direction poo is not & that alone will bite them in market penetration never can be #1 without 4s simple as that.

I never said being #2 was important to me! Where did you come up with that? You're the one that said above Poo would struggle holding on to second place and I was just responding to that. Where do you see Cat & Poo were running even 2 years ago? It looks like at least a 10% difference for years on that chart. Do you think Poo will never have a 4s again? 4s may be the future, but there's plenty of time to get a 4s again and they will. I hope to ride a 4s again someday.

 

[goofy600]

Wow, this is going to be a long summer. Already testy. What comes around goes around. Doo #1 today and for the last 10 or so years. Before that Pol #1 many years largely due to the 4 billion XLT's they sold. If I remember right Yami was even #1 for awhile in the early 80's. Still a boatload of old XC's out on the trails. Many of them Pol diehards not up for a Rush or Pro class sled. Maybe this new chassis is what they are waiting for. Pol all done designing their Indian motorcycle. Maybe they are turning their efforts at regaining #1 in sled sales. Who knows? The biggest obstacle to sales right now for all brands is the price tag. If Pol really got down and dirty they are the only ones that could come with a killer price on a killer new sled. They make a lot of money with their other products. They haven't been getting rich on sleds for a long time. If they undercut Doo by $1000 bucks a sled it wouldn't take long to gain market share. Cold hard cash still works.

And BRP (skidoo, seadoo, and can-am) don't have the money sea-doo has dominated that market for years so I think they could do the same and undercut if they wanted.

 

[whitedust]

I never said being #2 was important to me! Where did you come up with that? You're the one that said above Poo would struggle holding on to second place and I was just responding to that. Where do you see Cat & Poo were running even 2 years ago? It looks like at least a 10% difference for years on that chart. Do you think Poo will never have a 4s again? 4s may be the future, but there's plenty of time to get a 4s again and they will. I hope to ride a 4s again someday.

Holding on to #2 not going to be easy task either no one has seen the new chassis yet ...don't know I might like it ... but looks like a refined Rush which is ok but I liked sitting position of Apex & doos better cats no so much. For me I have to at least sit on it for an impression could care less what the mags & vids say. Yep according to the chart posted today poo #2 but 2 years ago no one was sure & thought Cat & Poo were neck & neck in #2 no way to really know back then although this chart is acceptable to me but I'm not sure where it came from or how accurate? I have no way of knowing if Poo will enter 4s market but public statements say "No" & not available in 15. For me I don't know what Yamaha will do next then on top of that guess about Poo direction just no way to know unless your are Scott Wine. lo Could poo develope a 4s ...Yes... but Yamaha has very good 2s tech now but does not use it so all I can do is go with their statements & discussions with the factory reps at sneak peek shows & poo not talking about 4s sled at all.

 

[fusion]

Cat has never been "neck and neck" with Poo in last 15 yrs., let alone the last 3. Not sure where you're getting that, best to provide a link than just blow smoke.
So you don't like Poo that's fine, but you can't deny the proficiency of their chassis, even if they are lacking something in the big motor, power plant dept.
Although there are plenty of riders saying no problem at all with 800's, all in how you treat them.
I've been perfectly honest in comparisons riding both Yamaha and Poo, in adjust-ability and ride, Poo has the edge, at least in Rush Pro-R form. I've never seen a chassis respond so definitively and effectively to minimal turns of those BIG DIAL Walker Evans clickers. I can only conclude this AXYS platform will be even better.
Innovative tech can have a major impact in this industry as word spreads like wildfire, just like it did with the REV.
But the other Mfg'ers are catching up as nothing innovative has come out of Doo in a few years. JMO
Oh - and in riding this year the only time I saw a major mechanical breakdown was on trail 7N a whole group of sleds was stopped (15 or so) and one guy was directing traffic because, you guessed it...
an AC was blocking the trail in typical breakdown mode. 4-5 guys working on one greenie! Hilarious. So what's wrong I says to the guy....we got a broke one right in middle of trail! I was so tempted to say, without even looking - has to be an AC - sure enough, get around the corner....AC.
Years ago when riding with clubs in big groups - broke down AC coming across Lake Gogebic - hole in piston. Only traveling 60 - 70 MPH.
Same trip - had to turn around and go back five miles out of Wildcat Lodge in BJ - Boat anchor T-Cat only firing on 2 cylinders.....AGAIN. After countless trips to 3 dealers, never could solve fuel delivery problems on that turd. Take the thing to dealer for a sprung pull rope spring assembly....pay good money at SS Sport in Mercer. Get back on the trail toward Hurley after picking up sled, about 7 miles up, I look down, the gd pull rope is laying in my lap all sprung again! Back to the dealer - AGAIN. Don't tell me how AC is even in the same league as the top two! I'm always amazed that company is still in business from year to year.
Off soap box.

 

[ezra]

Cat has never been "neck and neck" with Poo in last 15 yrs., let alone the last 3. Not sure where you're getting that, best to provide a link than just blow smoke.
So you don't like Poo that's fine, but you can't deny the proficiency of their chassis, even if they are lacking something in the big motor, power plant dept.
Although there are plenty of riders saying no problem at all with 800's, all in how you treat them.
I've been perfectly honest in comparisons riding both Yamaha and Poo, in adjust-ability and ride, Poo has the edge, at least in Rush Pro-R form. I've never seen a chassis respond so definitively and effectively to minimal turns of those BIG DIAL Walker Evans clickers. I can only conclude this AXYS platform will be even better.
Innovative tech can have a major impact in this industry as word spreads like wildfire, just like it did with the REV.
But the other Mfg'ers are catching up as nothing innovative has come out of Doo in a few years. JMO
Oh - and in riding this year the only time I saw a major mechanical breakdown was on trail 7N a whole group of sleds was stopped (15 or so) and one guy was directing traffic because, you guessed it...
an AC was blocking the trail in typical breakdown mode. 4-5 guys working on one greenie! Hilarious. So what's wrong I says to the guy....we got a broke one right in middle of trail! I was so tempted to say, without even looking - has to be an AC - sure enough, get around the corner....AC.
Years ago when riding with clubs in big groups - broke down AC coming across Lake Gogebic - hole in piston. Only traveling 60 - 70 MPH.
Same trip - had to turn around and go back five miles out of Wildcat Lodge in BJ - Boat anchor T-Cat only firing on 2 cylinders.....AGAIN. After countless trips to 3 dealers, never could solve fuel delivery problems on that turd. Take the thing to dealer for a sprung pull rope spring assembly....pay good money at SS Sport in Mercer. Get back on the trail toward Hurley after picking up sled, about 7 miles up, I look down, the gd pull rope is laying in my lap all sprung again! Back to the dealer - AGAIN. Don't tell me how AC is even in the same league as the top two! I'm always amazed that company is still in business from year to year.
Off soap box.

I will say it again to bad the screen name fusionfool was taken .

 

[polarisrider1]

I will say it again to bad the screen name fusionfool was taken .

That's all ya got?!? Lol. The cat with issues comes in 550 & 580 all under 3000 miles on them. I can get real nasty and can post 300 plus melt down cat engines. My brother has them stacked for your viewing pleasure. He does not sell new sleds.. fixes and restores 300-400 per year. Not special towards any brand. Very honest. what you try to hide he already has seen. Get over it cat and AMC are the same.

 

[polarisrider1]

Dont forget to mention to turn the oil pump way up so it runs way rich and not to go over 8K RPM's.........for the average joe gas and go, its a major problem.

Not even way up. 8000 rpm is plenty to get the job done. Gotta laugh at the "know it alls" who have no clue.

 

[ezra]

That's all ya got?!? Lol. The cat with issues comes in 550 & 580 all under 3000 miles on them. I can get real nasty and can post 300 plus melt down cat engines. My brother has them stacked for your viewing pleasure. He does not sell new sleds.. fixes and restores 300-400 per year. Not special towards any brand. Very honest. what you try to hide he already has seen. Get over it cat and AMC are the same.

Oh no I have tons more remember I to have been wrenching and riding my whole life.still wrench when needed at a local shop.
just way way to much to get in to. and frankly not worth my time.
but it is sad the best u have on the table is a motor that has not been produced in over 17yrs.
do we really want to talk about motor durability from 20 to as early as 2011 poo power plants?

 

[coldfront]

I dont care whos number 1...I just snow checked a axys switchback pro x yesterday...gonna be a long summer. Keeping the cat racer for a backup sled. Polaris will move some serious units after hearing how many snow checked sleds have been placed already. I just can't imagine the masses really enjoying those colors ski-doo is offering. I mean that freeride is the equivalent of shag carpeting. We'll look back on that sled and go wow...what was I thinking riding that sled.