Snowmobilers drinking while sledding - what do you do

[xsledder]

What happens when the other guy doesn't keep a cool head? When the other guy is just out looking for trouble and I just happen to be the closest one to him?

Years ago I was attacked in the middle of the woods by some guy hopped up on something. He asked me something that neither my coworker or I were able to understand and asked him to repeat himself. About that time he jumped on me and knocked me to the ground and starting hitting me (I was 180 lbs soaking wet he was 250+ lbs) , quick thinking my coworker knocked him with a shovel that was close by in the truck.

How I could have been any more level headed is beyond me as it happened so fast I didn't have time to get scared or angry or anything. My coworker still says to this day if he would have been carrying (this was Pre "shall issue" CPL days in Michigan) that he would have shot the guy in a heart beat.

Simple, self-defense. Don't have to check it in at the door. It's always with you. They can't take it from you and use it against you. You can turn most anything into a weapon. And, you're less likely to get in trouble with the law if you use it. Plus you are trained to identify someone like that and get alert before some happens, so when it does, you can get someone 70 lbs heavier than you off of you and restrain them. Plus, you are taught how to disarm some with a knife or a gun.

What would you do if I got your gun away from you? How effective is the gun for you then?

I'm not against conceal carry nor am I for gun control. I was very pleased the Supreme Court ruled the 2nd Admendment was an individual right. But it can get you into a lot more trouble then it is worth. Just remember that you might feel safe carrying your gun on the trail for protection, but there are people on the trail that can disarm you.

That is why I don't feel a need to carry a gun on a sled. I don't what someone getting it and using my weapon against me.

 

[srt20]

Some people that CCW are also trained in self defense. Not all people that dont carry are trained in self defense. You can look at it anyway you want, but there is always another story or example. Its a right to CCW, but just because its a right doesnt mean you have to exercise that right. But just because you dont exercise that right doesnt mean someone else cant, or is perceived as paranoid or weak.

You see where Im going? Neither one is ever going to win this debate. If you dont feel comfortable CCW then dont. If you are comfortable with it, then do it. But dont think for one second that your CCW OR your self defense training is a guarantee that you are going be safe. Nor is it a guarantee that you will be harmed...

its never ending.

 

[xsledder]

Some people that CCW are also trained in self defense. Not all people that dont carry are trained in self defense. You can look at it anyway you want, but there is always another story or example. Its a right to CCW, but just because its a right doesnt mean you have to exercise that right. But just because you dont exercise that right doesnt mean someone else cant, or is perceived as paranoid or weak.

You see where Im going? Neither one is ever going to win this debate. If you dont feel comfortable CCW then dont. If you are comfortable with it, then do it. But dont think for one second that your CCW OR your self defense training is a guarantee that you are going be safe. Nor is it a guarantee that you will be harmed...

its never ending.

Trust me, I don't take anything for granted. Nor am I trying to win any debate. I just got carried away in what became an interesting topic. (And a surprising topic in some ways.) I know I'm not guaranteed to win any fights, that is why I use the walk-away approach. The best use of any defense is to never show it, use it, or talk about it. (I just broke one of my rules.)

 

[lenny]

while there are 2 sides to the story, we have a right protected and that is a bear arms. If we arm ourselves legally, why are we scrutinized by those who think it is unnecessary. If we are within the law why even discuss this. I own a gun but do not carry it. If I wanted to carry it I would take the class and earn the right to carry. Those that have are totally legit and are getting poked at for carrying because other think they shouldn't. This is a prime example of people stepping over boundaries and criticizing someone for doing absolutely nothing wrong. Maybe those who carry should critize those who feel the need to text all day long just to feel important. Now I don't actually feel that way about people who text often but it's easy to criticize an activity when we think it is unnecessary.

 

[russholio]

Wrong. You can open carry in a bar as long as you have a CPL. I suggest you go to Michigan open carrys forum and go through the sticky threads at the top and read up on the MCL's and where it is legal to open carry with a CPL.

Fair enough.....but since (I thought) we were talking about concealed carry, that's what I was referring to with my statement. At any rate, I did not know that so thanks for the education!

 

[chevytaHOE5674]

Plus you are trained to identify someone like that and get alert before some happens, so when it does, you can get someone 70 lbs heavier than you off of you and restrain them. Plus, you are taught how to disarm some with a knife or a gun.

You can't be alert to everything all the time. My coworker and I were miles back in the bush working, standing around the truck having lunch. Guy comes walking down the road, we figured he ran out of gas or truck broke down and needed help. He got up to us and mumbled and then attacked (honestly happened in the blink of an eye). Sure I identified him from afar (no idea he was a threat because he was just walking down the road). This guy was on some drugs so self defense without a weapon would have been a trick (maybe your superman though). My coworker hit him with the shovel repeatedly (many blows to the head) before the guy eventually passed out. We then called the law and half hour later somebody arrived. When the man came to it took 4 officers to get him under control and into the back of a police vehicle. I never want to be in that situation again, and if I am forced into one I will better prepared.

Xsledder as for using the "walk away approach" sometimes that isn't an option. Sometimes your back is against a wall (or pickup truck in my situation) and you have no other option.


Anyways that's I will say on this. I will keep doing what I do and you all can keep doing what you do.

 

[rsvectordude]

The last thing I'm think about when my sled breaks down in the middle of nowhere is lions and tigers and bears, oh my!

Huh?? i was talking about the hike out of the woods not animals!!

 

[chicagosledder]

There several locations in Chicago where I would want a firearm too, but not out of fear of four-legged animals. If you were on a snowmobile trail in Chicago you won't need a firearm for cougars, bisons, or wolfs, would you? Besides, how many miles of snowmobile trails are in Chicago proper (ahh, none).

(And the cougar that wondered into the city was a fluke occurance. It was probably afraid of the gang bangers and wanted a gun too.)

I am allowed to carry in Chicago, however I never felt the need to carry while riding my sled. I do on the other hand bring it with me when I travel in my car to the UP but then it gets put away. As for carrying or not it comes down to common sense and what you are comfortable with. Like an earlier post stated either carry or don't it is your choice.

 

[russholio]

For some reason, it seems as though some folks believe that a CPL holder who is carrying just can't wait for the chance to use his or her weapon. I can assure you, nothing is further from the truth. We are taught in class that our first response is to get away if we possibly can. Deployment of a weapon, and obviously use of it is an absolute last resort and will bring all sorts of legal issues that nobody wants face, even if justified (but still better to face said issues than to be dead). I can't think of a single CPL holder who hopes to be able to shoot somebody. I know I don't. It's much like an insurance policy on your house, car, or sled. You never really want to use it, but it's sure nice to have if you need it.

 

[xsledder]

You can't be alert to everything all the time. My coworker and I were miles back in the bush working, standing around the truck having lunch. Guy comes walking down the road, we figured he ran out of gas or truck broke down and needed help. He got up to us and mumbled and then attacked (honestly happened in the blink of an eye). Sure I identified him from afar (no idea he was a threat because he was just walking down the road). This guy was on some drugs so self defense without a weapon would have been a trick (maybe your superman though). My coworker hit him with the shovel repeatedly (many blows to the head) before the guy eventually passed out. We then called the law and half hour later somebody arrived. When the man came to it took 4 officers to get him under control and into the back of a police vehicle. I never want to be in that situation again, and if I am forced into one I will better prepared.

Xsledder as for using the "walk away approach" sometimes that isn't an option. Sometimes your back is against a wall (or pickup truck in my situation) and you have no other option.


Anyways that's I will say on this. I will keep doing what I do and you all can keep doing what you do.

Here's a free lesson. A nice tight fist. The knuckle of the middle finger slightly pertruding. A good solid punch to the voice box with the knuckle hitting it. I don't care what their on, if they can't breath, they can't do anything. You just have to remember this when the chips go down.

 

[xsledder]

I am allowed to carry in Chicago, however I never felt the need to carry while riding my sled. I do on the other hand bring it with me when I travel in my car to the UP but then it gets put away. As for carrying or not it comes down to common sense and what you are comfortable with. Like an earlier post stated either carry or don't it is your choice.

I think we are on the same page. I would carry in Chicago too.

 

[qber]

There will always be bar fights because a few people are very easily offended and feel threatened after drinking and they have a short fuse. The appropriate weapon for these fights, if you engage in them, are fists and if it gets out of hand, arrests happen and the judge decides and everyone lives. Like I said before in an earlier comment, our recent local college bar stabbing over a stupid teasing resulted in one death and one wounding. If the weapon had been a gun the number of innocent injured in this crowded bar would likely been higher. Weapons and alcohol do not mix and the people who are not armed in a bar also have " rights".
Yes i will scrutinize someone who mixes alcohol and weapons in a bar Lenny.

 

[xsledder]

Huh?? i was talking about the hike out of the woods not animals!!

I think you are misinterpreting my post. I was having fun with your post and not making fun of you. I thought the Wizard of Oz reference was kinda cute. Sorry.

 

[xsledder]

For some reason, it seems as though some folks believe that a CPL holder who is carrying just can't wait for the chance to use his or her weapon. I can assure you, nothing is further from the truth. We are taught in class that our first response is to get away if we possibly can. Deployment of a weapon, and obviously use of it is an absolute last resort and will bring all sorts of legal issues that nobody wants face, even if justified (but still better to face said issues than to be dead). I can't think of a single CPL holder who hopes to be able to shoot somebody. I know I don't. It's much like an insurance policy on your house, car, or sled. You never really want to use it, but it's sure nice to have if you need it.

No, but you can not, nor can the State, guarrantee 100% someone with a CPL won't misuse the firearm. I don't care how much background checking, or training is going on. Even Police make mistakes and they are checked and trained.

 

[buddah2]

.......Deployment of a weapon, and obviously use of it is an absolute last resort and will bring all sorts of legal issues that nobody wants face,.........

Deployment of a pistol, absent the threat of IMMINENT physical harm or death, is called "brandishing" and it is itself a crime.

 

[chevytaHOE5674]

Here's a free lesson. A nice tight fist. The knuckle of the middle finger slightly pertruding. A good solid punch to the voice box with the knuckle hitting it. I don't care what their on, if they can't breath, they can't do anything. You just have to remember this when the chips go down.

I know I said I was done responding but you don't seem to get it so I will make one more attemp. When I was first attacked he had me in a bear hug (no way to free my arms to punch him). He was smashing his head into mine (lots and lots of blood) until I was so dazed/disoriented/unconscious that I'm not sure what happened. I remember the "ring" of the shovel smashing his head and when I finally got out from under him I was covered in blood and bruises.

Had we not been close to the truck with the shovel close by I'm not sure what would have happened, I may not be here to type this. If my coworker (5'1" tall 85lbs) had tried to jump in then maybe we both would have been goners. So I and my old coworker carry firearms because its much easier than carrying around a steel shovel.

No, but you can not, nor can the State, guarrantee 100% someone with a CPL won't misuse the firearm. I don't care how much background checking, or training is going on. Even Police make mistakes and they are checked and trained.

Nor can anyone guarantee me 100% that nothing bad will every happen to me in my life. That's why I choose to take steps to protect myself and my family.


Anywho this is really the last I'll say about this. If you choose not to carry or not own a firearm that is fine, nobody is going to force you to. I won't tell you that your wrong and its stupid not to carry. Those of you telling us who carry that we are stupid apparently like to try and infringe on the rights of others which is really a shame.

 

[olsmann]

As a ccw permit holder myself Im all for conceal and carry. And I fully support ones right to bear arms to protect himself, his family and property at all times. But why do so many who do it seem to want to brag and talk about it every chance they get? And they seem to want everyone to know about it. Its seems the term "CONCEAL" implies hiding the fact that you carry. Strap up, lock and load and keep your big yap shut. There is no need for the whole world to know about it. Some people are uncomfortable or imtimindated about it and i believe telling everyone you carry a gun could invite more trouble to yourself then anything. Its almost as if they wanna talk about it to intimidate people.

Go forth and carry everyday and everywhere its legal and not a single person on earth ever needs to know about it unless they mean to bring harm your way.

Here ill quote myself and say it again. And yes brandishing is a crime also. Conceal and keep your big yapper shut. Not everyone is comfortable with it so conceal and you will never have a problem. No sense making people uncomfortable. And we were taught if you pull it you better be ready to use it and also ready to explain in front of a judge every single move you made after that gun left the holster even if you didnt pull the trigger

 

[ezra]

Huh?? i was talking about the hike out of the woods not animals!!

never in MN MI or WI but I did see a 60lb or so kitty cat in the hills of CO one time I would crap my pants if I was unprepared and hiking out or just waiting for help to get back.
I know Ricky Bobby's dad says just stay calm they can smell the fear but I suck at poker

 

[lenny]

There will always be bar fights because a few people are very easily offended and feel threatened after drinking and they have a short fuse. The appropriate weapon for these fights, if you engage in them, are fists and if it gets out of hand, arrests happen and the judge decides and everyone lives. Like I said before in an earlier comment, our recent local college bar stabbing over a stupid teasing resulted in one death and one wounding. If the weapon had been a gun the number of innocent injured in this crowded bar would likely been higher. Weapons and alcohol do not mix and the people who are not armed in a bar also have " rights".
Yes i will scrutinize someone who mixes alcohol and weapons in a bar Lenny.

well, you do bring up a good point there but at the same time you do make a jump of an assumption thinking the weapon will be used. You and I both now that a drunk shooting someone in a bar in an altercation does not justify deadly force but I do get your point.

 

[russholio]

Here's a free lesson. A nice tight fist. The knuckle of the middle finger slightly pertruding. A good solid punch to the voice box with the knuckle hitting it. I don't care what their on, if they can't breath, they can't do anything. You just have to remember this when the chips go down.

Fine and dandy if you're a physically imposing figure (which I am not) and/or if you're not dealing with somebody on drugs (which I have done in my former line of work and I assure you, it's a challenge), and/or you're trained in fighting techniques, and/or your assailant is willing to let you land that punch. The last thing I want to do in a confrontation is get into close, personal contact with an assailant. At that point, unless you're trained in such techniques, even a weapon can become a liability.

No, but you can not, nor can the State, guarrantee 100% someone with a CPL won't misuse the firearm. I don't care how much background checking, or training is going on. Even Police make mistakes and they are checked and trained.

That's a fact. But you can't guarantee that everybody won't drink too much and drive, or that every doctor won't molest patients, or that every police officer won't sell drugs, or that every child care provider won't abuse children, or......the list goes on. Nothing in life is guaranteed except death. And again I'll say, the odds of the general public misusing a firearm versus the odds of a CPL holder doing so are far greater. Even though I don't know him, I can say this with certainty: I'd rather meet on the trails a guy like chevytaHOE5674, who I know is likely to be carrying (legally), than a guy like Rory Kuenzi, even if he's unarmed. I know that there's an excellent chance that somebody like chevy poses me no threat as long as I don't pose one to him. A guy like Kuenzi is capable of anything with little to no provocation.

Deployment of a pistol, absent the threat of IMMINENT physical harm or death, is called "brandishing" and it is itself a crime.

Right....I was alluding to that and didn't do a very good job of it. My bad.