UP Signage Revisited

whitedust

Well-known member
all opinions aside! Lets look at a seasons worth of experience. I have room for opposing views, trust me. Lets looks at the preliminary experiences of people that have ridden the trail system and have comented on their experience. Now am I asking to much or domination this topic without reason?

Michigan sought to implement a plan to improve safety, reducing clutter is the by-product of the plan. We have heard many statement of riders who have experienced this new plan and the result SO FAR have proven that the plan has not failed and in fact the riders see virtually no difference. What we have seen to date are positive experiences with very little negative comments. Am I making anything up here folks? Am I bias because I live in and support Mi decision? Do I have no room for opposing views? How can we ignore the evidence and continue to defend a position based on speculation. People, the plan has been implemented, it's here! The plan SO FAR based on rider experience has proven to produce the desired results and less signage demands a rider to ride with a heightened sense of surroundings and that my friend is a good basis for safty.

If WI has a different plan, good for them. Maybe and just maybe there are 2 different ways to come to the same place. Signs will not make it less safe.

Now for a funny! If you need to be coddled and suckle on your mommies nipple for survival, so be it!

I do think you got what I was trying to convey there is no right or wrong to trail signage MI reduces WI adds. Choose your preference or don't for me I ride both states & make the transition without too many problems as both have safe trails but entirely different approach to signage. That the 2 states approach signage differently tickles me & I do have a preference but that falls into the so what area not stopping me from riding either state. I don't like getting confused regarding straight off trail run outs where trail makes left or right but I had that probem in both states before any signage change. All in all just different no right or wrong. :)
 

whitedust

Well-known member
Wisconsin over signs its trails big time, and that is my opinion on that. LOL.

Yep no doubt about that compared to MI now WI wants more solar powered signs too to enhance safety. To me too funny both states DNRs completely opposite aproach to the same objective. LOL
 
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lenny

Guest
Okay.....since we're on the subject (again) here is my take, from A-Z, as simply and as clearly as I can put it. No slam against the opinions against any others, just my opinion.

First, kudos to MSA for recognizing a problem (too many people riding irresponsibly and unsafely fast) and deciding to take a stand against it. I couldn't agree more. However -- the problem didn't spring up in just one season, so why was it necessary to try and correct it in one season? For better or for worse, many riders have become accustomed to riding with plenty of signage. I believe a more responsible approach would have been to implement it over the course of several seasons, i.e., "wean" people off of it. The change would have been more transparent and seamless, and before long nobody would even realize there'd been a change.

Also.....when portions of the Huron-Manistee National Forest were in danger of being closed to snowmobiles, MSA waged a mail and email campaign urging members to write to the authorities to voice their opposition. Why was there no such campaign seeking members' input on ways of correcting the problem?

I am an MSA life member and would be the first to say they do a TON of good, but in this case I don't think they handled the issue appropriately.

Now, let's look at the reasons for the signage change (depending on which agency you talk to), in no particular order of importance:

1.) Reduce clutter -- mission accomplished, although personally, I never felt that signs were clutter or that they detracted from my riding experience or views of the woods.

2.) Reduce speed (or "sign-to-sign" riding). In theory, maybe. In the real world, I don't think the change is going to affect most of the people they want it to affect. People who ride responsibly and cautiously are going to be even more so; Ricky Racer is still going to be Ricky Racer. You can't mandate common sense, nor can you mandate courtesy and respect for your fellow rider. No sign or amount of signs will change that.

3.) Reduce lawsuits. Again, maybe in theory. But I also believe the legal eagles will find a way around that. Consider the person who approaches a fence, reaches over to pet the dog, and gets bitten. Victim sues owner and wins, because owner should have known his/her dog might bite and didn't warn the victim. Fair enough.....so the owner puts up a "beware of dog" sign. Victim #2 reaches over the fence (ignoring the warning) to pet dog, and gets bitten. Victim #2 also sues owner and wins, because owner is knowingly harboring a "vicious" animal. Likewise -- rider blows unmarked turn, gets hurt, sues because there was no warning, or rider blows marked turn, and sues because club knew of a dangerous situation. In short, you can't win. It's just the way society is today and sadly, it's part of the cost of doing business.

At any rate....I will be the first to admit that I predicted doom and gloom, and that doesn't appear to have happened. I'm glad I was wrong. It also didn't affect my riding enjoyment any. I'm glad about that, too (although I wouldn't say that I saw any more or any less idiots coming around a corner too fast, on my side). In fairness, I think we need more than one season to make a full and fair analysis, but so far it really hasn't had much affect on my riding.

Nice post, very detailed and thought out. This is what I like when we get into important discussions, real deliberate facts that directly pertain to the topic and thank you for that!

I just wanna make a few quick comments on the 3 you posted.

1. Trail clutter- As for the rider it is subjective but for the DNR and clubs it lowers costs. Every time we go out to do trail brushing we check every single post. I personally have helped do this and we ride up to the post on our ATV's and grab it to see if it's tight or ready to fall over. If they are loose we drive a wooden wedge along side the post to tighten it up in the hole. If sign post are broken off we use a gas powered auger and bore a hole to set the post in. Dealing with less sign, post will cost less and leave the look of the trail less cluttered. Remember, less clutter is a result of the initiative. So, regardless if we see the signs as clutter or not, there are benefits of less signage concerning expenses and maintaining said signage.

2. Reduce speed- the loss of signs so far have not proven dangerous. Statements posted in general are positive. Now this part is the tricky part where we may not see eye to eye but lets try. If we are riding the trail and have less signs to interpret we really have no choice but to figure out the situation and the natural response will be to lower speed to figure it out. Only speed gives you the adequate time to respond to a situation. The more time given by the rider the better decisions we make. Signs often give more awareness of a particular condition but as a sport that involves few rules and high speeds, the signs (IMO) enable higher speeds and less caution because the prediction level has been increased by the sign. A rider seeing less signs has no option but to take action to be prepared because he is receiving no help in the matter. Kinda like walking along a trail in Colorado and at the the trail head you get a warning of caution "rattle snakes." Your gonna walk the trail in a manner you see best fit to not get bit, you don't just ignore the possibility of hazards! This is the same sort of situation. Snowmobiling offers hazardous conditions that we must respond to and accept the responsibility. Signs are an attempt to help us but not to replace our existing built in conscious decision making. The inherent risks will always exist and the premisis of placing all the responsibility on the rider is IMO a worthwhile endeavor. I mean we have to draw some conclusion given the data provided, as non scientific as it may be, but yet is it info based on actual experience. You mention "real world" but that is speculation and it cannot supersede the stated experiences posted. You know what I mean? Please correct me if I am wrong as I will accept error, learning is king!

3. Reduce lawsuits- I honestly know little about that and cannot offer any useful opinions or experiences to elaborate.

You are 100% correct is saying we need more time to collect info regarding all this stuff but at the same time we have something that points us in a direction of understanding. I just hope data is interpreted correctly. Example, a group of riders crash and explain poor signage as the culprit when 30,000 sleds prior ride the same area and no problems, see what I am getting at?
 
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whitedust

Well-known member
Both lenny & russholio have made excellent points in this discussion & the agreement that more time is needed to have better focus is again excellent. What we don't know is the inconvenience factor digging a sled out due to lack of trail marking, the fender bender factor or riders like or dislike the new sign policy. We have extreme contrast to signage between 2 border states so to me this discussion will go on for the foreseeable future.:)
 

polarisrider1

New member
Nice post, very detailed and thought out. This is what I like when we get into important discussions, real deliberate facts that directly pertain to the topic and thank you for that!

I just wanna make a few quick comments on the 3 you posted.

1. Trail clutter- As for the rider it is subjective but for the DNR and clubs it lowers costs. Every time we go out to do trail brushing we check every single post. I personally have helped do this and we ride up to the post on our ATV's and grab it to see if it's tight or ready to fall over. If they are loose we drive a wooden wedge along side the post to tighten it up in the hole. If sign post are broken off we use a gas powered auger and bore a hole to set the post in. Dealing with less sign, post will cost less and leave the look of the trail less cluttered. Remember, less clutter is a result of the initiative. So, regardless if we see the signs as clutter or not, there are benefits of less signage concerning expenses and maintaining said signage.

2. Reduce speed- the loss of signs so far have not proven dangerous. Statements posted in general are positive. Now this part is the tricky part where we may not see eye to eye but lets try. If we are riding the trail and have less signs to interpret we really have no choice but to figure out the situation and the natural response will be to lower speed to figure it out. Only speed gives you the adequate time to respond to a situation. The more time given by the rider the better decisions we make. Signs often give more awareness of a particular condition but as a sport that involves few rules and high speeds, the signs (IMO) enable higher speeds and less caution because the prediction level has been lowered by the sign. A rider seeing less signs has no option but to take action to be prepared because he is receiving no help in the matter. Kinda like walking along a trail in Colorado and at the the trail head you get a warning of caution "rattle snakes." Your gonna walk the trail in a manner you see best fit to not get bit, you don't just ignore the possibility of hazards! This is the same sort of situation. Snowmobiling offers hazardous conditions that we must respond to and accept the responsibility. Signs are an attempt to help us but not to replace our existing built in conscious decision making. The inherent risks will always exist and the premisis of placing all the responsibility on the rider is IMO a worthwhile endeavor. I mean we have to draw some conclusion given the data provided, as non scientific as it may be, but yet is it info based on actual experience. You mention "real world" but that is speculation and it cannot supersede the stated experiences posted. You know what I mean? Please correct me if I am wrong as I will accept error, learning is king!

3. Reduce lawsuits- I honestly know little about that and cannot offer any useful opinions or experiences to elaborate.

You are 100% correct is saying we need more time to collect info regarding all this stuff but at the same time we have something that points us in a direction of understanding. I just hope data is interpreted correctly. Example, a group of riders crash and explain poor signage as the culprit when 30,000 sleds prior ride the same area and no problems, see what I am getting at?

written very well Lenny and Russholio. You guys covered it extremely well. Thank you.
 
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lenny

Guest
Both lenny & russholio have made excellent points in this discussion & the agreement that more time is needed to have better focus is again excellent. What we don't know is the inconvenience factor digging a sled out due to lack of trail marking, the fender bender factor or riders like or dislike the new sign policy. We have extreme contrast to signage between 2 border states so to me this discussion will go on for the foreseeable future.:)

Pete, I cannot let you get away withthat one,,,lol. You cant make a statement without any facts. Has there been an occurrence that you speak of,,, perhaps, perhaps not. Even better, has it occurred because of poor signage or poor operation? Again, I'm not pressing the issue to try an be right but rather looking at this by actual information that riders have posted. The positive posts people are making of their riding experiences seems to be avoided like the plague from those who just don't like it. I give Russholie thumbs up for admitting he posted gloom and doom, I forgot he ever posted it in the first place. Back on topic, the highlighted statement implies fact when we have no record of that. I give you that there are riders all over Mi who do not post on here so we only see a tiny percentage of feedback but at least it is something to stand on and odds are it will be the standard of the trend we will see. You also just said we don't know the rider like or dislike of the new policy and that's just plain false, in fact that's all we have right now to go by. Go back and count the posts that didn't have issue with sign removal. I am sure their opinion would certainly favor new policy over dislike of new policy, especially if they stated they didn't notice much difference at all,,, agreed?

Personally I think this issue should be looked at not from a like or dislike position as that is worth little. The plan instituted for safety is the issue at hand and safety should be the topic.
 

polarisrider1

New member
Wow Lenny totally agree! love the verbage, (did you have your lawyer over to write this?)
Just kidding. Bare ground here, hope snow is holding out by you! ride on!
 
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Polarice

New member
Yep no doubt about that compared to MI now WI wants more solar powered signs too to enhance safety. To me too funny both states DNRs completely opposite aproach to the same objective. LOL

Yeah one actually cares about safety and the other is just completely moronic to the point where it couldn't be much stupider.
 
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lenny

Guest
For me, the difference was noticeable, but it did not impact my enjoyment in any way whatsoever. In fact, I thought it was more enjoyable without all the signs cluttering up the trail. I was not paralyzed with fear that I was going to blow every unmarked corner, nor did I see newbies wrapped around trees at every unmarked corner.

Did the clubs/msa/dnr get the new signage absolutely perfect on their first attempt? No, of course not. I don't think that this is a reasonable expectation. Improvements can be made, and it appears, through posts here & elsewhere, that once clubs/dnr were made aware of trouble spots, adjustments were made mid-season. More adjustments will be made through the off-season.

Heck, I'll go so far as to admit it; it slowed me down somewhat, and forced me to ride more cautiously. And I'm fine with that. I still had a ton of fun!
I some how missed this one,,very telling! At the same time just one perspective.
 

durphee

Well-known member
Good post, very informational. Rode both UP and Wisconsin and I guess I don't really ride the signs, I didn't notice a huge difference from the prior years. As long as there's snow I have fun. The trail intersection numbers are really nice in Wisconsin when riding in new locations. As far as I'm concerned, just mark the dangerous areas, which I thought they did a good with, and go from there. Give it a couple years study and revisit the topic.
 
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lenny

Guest
solar powered signs?? yup more stupider in WI. (is that even a word?)

word has it WI is gonna have call boxes for emergency, along with gps coordinates, heli pads every 10 miles, birth bags in case a pregnant women goes into labor. Oh yea,, Obama phones for all those who purchase a club membership.

Now you got me going Polarisrider1

Michigan can beat up Wisconsin
 

polarisrider1

New member
word has it WI is gonna have call boxes for emergency, along with gps coordinates, heli pads every 10 miles, birth bags in case a pregnant women goes into labor. Oh yea,, Obama phones for all those who purchase a club membership.

Now you got me going Polarisrider1

Michigan can beat up Wisconsin

lol! I tend to do that to some folks! (the get going part). lol
 
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polarisrider1

New member
I wonder how many of the sign whiners are also the ones I see riding their sleds down the plowed bare pavement roads in order to keep up with their buds to the next bar. Oh by the way road signs also are to be followed by sleds. 25 means 25 for all. Note: less signs on the trails keeps me off the pavement. (being sarcastic fo sure).
 

Skylar

Super Moderator
Staff member
Yeah one actually cares about safety and the other is just completely moronic to the point where it couldn't be much stupider.

Completely disagree, if you can't ride the trails, without a fricken sign every 20 yards, you shouldn't be snowmobiling.
 
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