Engine size

[momoney2123]

I understand your thinking but have to disagree. I did say some younger riders now didn't I? When it comes to reliability Yamaha smokes BRp's *** and that's not even an argument. So for some, that reliability issue sells sleds for Yamaha and if you want a classic example ask Paul (pwolfy) from this site that question and see what he tells you. Now lets me ask you this, do you really think that Yamaha had a vision that in 03 when they started the 4s power plant they expected the majority of riders to jump ship and go blue? I am a business owner and know many business owners, small shops and the goal is not always make the most money but rather build quality products that make people happy. I tend to think the Japanese are somewhere in the middle, wanting to makes big money and great products but to claim they are bent at capturing #1 I would bet is not the case. Here is an example, in 04 Yamaha built the side by side Rhino which is an awesome utility side by side. It's slow, heavy, noisy but a very capable work horse. When did we start to see the competitors building performance side by sides? Not sure of the exact but they have been around for a while where Yamaha just finished the Rhino and came out with the viking and now a 6 seat viking. The viking really has no sport element to it but is purpose built and fills a niche and they are ultra reliable and serious work horses. I wonder why they have no sport side by side. Is it because they have no ability to build one, probably not. When you combine all Yamaha's products you see quality and reliability are the front and that is a stable economic platform to build a business on. If all you do is race to be #1 while not being diversified you become vulnerable to economic roller coaster. Yamaha is like a not so aggressive investment portfolio. There in it for the long haul and do many thing very well and stability is the result.

I admit I could be seriously wrong about my viewpoint, it is speculation as I have nothing to base it on other than opinion but from my personal observation that is the conclusion I have come to. I gotta say I do love debating with you though, thanks for that!

yamaha reliability is top notch on their engines, cant argue that. But to say they smoke brp? False. If you compare apples to apples to say a doo 1200 4s, reliability is similiar. And id argue chassis components are more reliable on the doo. Then u get to the strengths of the doo. The ride. R motion. Ive ridden new yamaha and new 1200s. Its crystal clear which one is a nicer trail sled IMO. Stock it will put the hurt on a viper, thro a pb80 and header on it and apex watch out. U got urself a rmotion equipped thumper.

U dont think doo is in it for the long haul?They arguably have the best all around sled in every catagory. Not saying yamaha snowmobile division isnt smart. Maybe they are the old wise guy who doesnt want to take a risk. But if you dont take a risk you wont make any gains either. And thats where I see yamaha. Stuck in the back of the pack. Hey If their happy with it more power too them.

 

[lenny]

If you're comparing Yamaha 4s to BRP 2s that may be a valid statement, but not necessarily so if you're talking BRP 4s. Not to take anything away from Yamaha at all, we all know they make a fine engine. But BRP's 1200 is no slouch either, it just hasn't been around as long as Yamaha 4s and doesn't have as much exposure. BRP treats it like their red-headed stepchild probably because it doesn't make them as much money as their beloved 800.

If BRP chooses to produce 2s which struggle to get past 7500 miles than we have a fact that they become less reliable than the competition of Yamaha. All of Yamaha's motors are long lasting and BRP has a large majority that are not. I understand your position but it doesn't detract from the fact that Yamaha does not produce a low mileage motor. It is apples to oranges because it's the motors they produce. Yamaha is proven and BRP is proving their 1200 is a solid motor. BRM 4s much better than cat.

yamaha reliability is top notch on their engines, cant argue that. But to say they smoke brp? False. If you compare apples to apples to say a doo 1200 4s, reliability is similiar. And id argue chassis components are more reliable on the doo. Then u get to the strengths of the doo. The ride. R motion. Ive ridden new yamaha and new 1200s. Its crystal clear which one is a nicer trail sled IMO. Stock it will put the hurt on a viper, thro a pb80 and header on it and apex watch out. U got urself a rmotion equipped thumper.

U dont think doo is in it for the long haul?They arguably have the best all around sled in every catagory. Not saying yamaha snowmobile division isnt smart. Maybe they are the old wise guy who doesnt want to take a risk. But if you dont take a risk you wont make any gains either. And thats where I see yamaha. Stuck in the back of the pack. Hey If their happy with it more power too them.

Dude, you need to pay attention,,lol I said they smoke BRP in reliability, how can you argue that and now you take the liberty to include other aspects which clouds our current debate,,,,which is Yamaha reliability. Yamaha motors do not even need valve adjustments till 25,000 miles,,,come on bro,,, try an keep up. An etec will need it's 3-4 rebuild by the time a simple valve adjustment is performed. I know, your gonna say lets compare apples to apples but Yamaha doesn't have the apples BRP has so we have to compare fleet to fleet. As far as the ride, I think you need to understand that in order to truly get the best ride you need to be able to adjust the sus to riding style and with that said I will concede that BRP probably has better handling sleds mainly for the reason they don't have an extra 50 lbs on the ski's which is no easy task to tune. It's an inherent issue with Yamaha trying to get the heavy sleds to feel light and the fact they are not light is challenging. As far as you claiming chassis components I think you are in total speculation and neither of us can produce sufficient info to argue either way but I do know this, living 1/4 mile from a Yamaha dealer and being good friends with the owners I see first hand what comes and goes at that shop and most of the repairs are wear items. Sure, exhaust gaskets, front sus bushings, things that 4s owners learn to inspect so they are not left stranded, not that either one of those issue will leave you stranded.

Now for the best stuff and I am so glad you typed it all for the world to see,,,,,which really is better than comical because I just choked out my lunch laughing me skinny little butt off at this,,,lol,,,,lol,,,lol "They arguably have the best all around sled in every catagory"


No offense and I am messing with you,,, not trying to insult but you gotta be drunk or just coming home from a road trip from Colorado to actually believe that. By you saying that, I now fully understand that you mainly repeat what you read in magazines and read on the web. Listen my friend, doo does not own the Mtn segment and you will be hard pressed to get even the doo owners to unite on that point. If doo is so good in the mtn segment than why can they not design a chassis that is neutral balanced? Why do thy throw a devise (t-motion) on a inferior chassis to try an doo what cat and poo do naturally do. Doo did step it up greatly with their boards and a few other upgrades but poo 's chassis is spot on and even the beginner rider feels the difference. Now, what experience do you have on a pro RMK and a 15 summit? I own a stock pro and have ridden a mod doo summit 800 etec from a guide out west. The doo was a sweet sled but has a learning curve in how it handles compared to the Pro. The doo had other mods and would probably outperform my stock Pro but you are speaking not from experience,,,I am. I am saying all three, poo, doo and cat have awesome mtn sleds capable of great rides but the pro chassis is so simple right out of the box, the rider needs no improvement and most will never out-ride the chassis. The weight is the lightest and the drive system is most efficient and these are things that relate to the riders ease of handling and throttle responce. The single fact alone that doo has a t-motion thingamagiggy is really stupid IMO and I see it as a means to compensate for a design flaw,,,t-motion is a bandaid. When doo produces a sled with a chassis comparable to the pro than look out, I may back you on your statement. I'm glad you stepped into my arena, let the games continue,

 

[momoney2123]

If BRP chooses to produce 2s which struggle to get past 7500 miles than we have a fact that they become less reliable than the competition of Yamaha. All of Yamaha's motors are long lasting and BRP has a large majority that are not. I understand your position but it doesn't detract from the fact that Yamaha does not produce a low mileage motor. It is apples to oranges because it's the motors they produce. Yamaha is proven and BRP is proving their 1200 is a solid motor. BRM 4s much better than cat.



Dude, you need to pay attention,,lol I said they smoke BRP in reliability, how can you argue that and now you take the liberty to include other aspects which clouds our current debate,,,,which is Yamaha reliability. Yamaha motors do not even need valve adjustments till 25,000 miles,,,come on bro,,, try an keep up. An etec will need it's 3-4 rebuild by the time a simple valve adjustment is performed. I know, your gonna say lets compare apples to apples but Yamaha doesn't have the apples BRP has so we have to compare fleet to fleet. As far as the ride, I think you need to understand that in order to truly get the best ride you need to be able to adjust the sus to riding style and with that said I will concede that BRP probably has better handling sleds mainly for the reason they don't have an extra 50 lbs on the ski's which is no easy task to tune. It's an inherent issue with Yamaha trying to get the heavy sleds to feel light and the fact they are not light is challenging. As far as you claiming chassis components I think you are in total speculation and neither of us can produce sufficient info to argue either way but I do know this, living 1/4 mile from a Yamaha dealer and being good friends with the owners I see first hand what comes and goes at that shop and most of the repairs are wear items. Sure, exhaust gaskets, front sus bushings, things that 4s owners learn to inspect so they are not left stranded, not that either one of those issue will leave you stranded.

Now for the best stuff and I am so glad you typed it all for the world to see,,,,,which really is better than comical because I just choked out my lunch laughing me skinny little butt off at this,,,lol,,,,lol,,,lol "They arguably have the best all around sled in every catagory"


No offense and I am messing with you,,, not trying to insult but you gotta be drunk or just coming home from a road trip from Colorado to actually believe that. By you saying that, I now fully understand that you mainly repeat what you read in magazines and read on the web. Listen my friend, doo does not own the Mtn segment and you will be hard pressed to get even the doo owners to unite on that point. If doo is so good in the mtn segment than why can they not design a chassis that is neutral balanced? Why do thy throw a devise (t-motion) on a inferior chassis to try an doo what cat and poo do naturally do. Doo did step it up greatly with their boards and a few other upgrades but poo 's chassis is spot on and even the beginner rider feels the difference. Now, what experience do you have on a pro RMK and a 15 summit? I own a stock pro and have ridden a mod doo summit 800 etec from a guide out west. The doo was a sweet sled but has a learning curve in how it handles compared to the Pro. The doo had other mods and would probably outperform my stock Pro but you are speaking not from experience,,,I am. I am saying all three, poo, doo and cat have awesome mtn sleds capable of great rides but the pro chassis is so simple right out of the box, the rider needs no improvement and most will never out-ride the chassis. The weight is the lightest and the drive system is most efficient and these are things that relate to the riders ease of handling and throttle responce. The single fact alone that doo has a t-motion thingamagiggy is really stupid IMO and I see it as a means to compensate for a design flaw,,,t-motion is a bandaid. When doo produces a sled with a chassis comparable to the pro than look out, I may back you on your statement. I'm glad you stepped into my arena, let the games continue,

you continue to compare apples to cactus. 1200 4s is comparable to yamaha. And a reason doo sells the most 4 strokes. Yamaha has nothing to compare to the 800etec. But u like comparing them for some reason.

Hate to break it to ya but I said ALL AROUND. Unfortunately the chassis is part of the BIG picture. Many MANNY former pro riders in dootalk who have converted to summits and have NOT looked back. Lot of them say the PRO is better in tight tree areas and side hilling. But the summit is no slouch. Anywhere else the summit is better....especially the engine. Lot of them got sick of the poo 800, because when its lugged hard in the mountains on long pulls, it goes down. Go look for urself and maybe have another beer

 

[lenny]

you continue to compare apples to cactus. 1200 4s is comparable to yamaha. And a reason doo sells the most 4 strokes. Yamaha has nothing to compare to the 800etec. But u like comparing them for some reason.

Hate to break it to ya but I said ALL AROUND. Unfortunately the chassis is part of the BIG picture. Many MANNY former pro riders in dootalk who have converted to summits and have NOT looked back. Lot of them say the PRO is better in tight tree areas and side hilling. But the summit is no slouch. Anywhere else the summit is better....especially the engine. Lot of them got sick of the poo 800, because when its lugged hard in the mountains on long pulls, it goes down. Go look for urself and maybe have another beer

good post, I'm gonna ask John if we can have a section for debate only so we don't continue to hijack threads, than no one can blame us for anything, good idea?

 

[momoney2123]

Heres another humdinger for ya. Had some engine work done from 2 stroke builder. Builds for all engines, no bias. He owns 2014 PRO RMK, 2014 Summit X 800etec, and i think it was a 2013 M8 he said. Lives in the mountains. Said the BEST and most FUN mountain sled he has ever ridden was his 2014 Summit X.

- - - Updated - - -

good post, I'm gonna ask John if we can have a section for debate only so we don't continue to hijack threads, than no one can blame us for anything, good idea?

Hahah yea good idea

 

[russholio]

If BRP chooses to produce 2s which struggle to get past 7500 miles than we have a fact that they become less reliable than the competition of Yamaha. All of Yamaha's motors are long lasting and BRP has a large majority that are not. I understand your position but it doesn't detract from the fact that Yamaha does not produce a low mileage motor. It is apples to oranges because it's the motors they produce. Yamaha is proven and BRP is proving their 1200 is a solid motor. BRM 4s much better than cat.

I had an '05 600 SDI that had 10,062 miles on it, untouched internally, showing no signs of weakening (and believe me, I checked regularly) when I sold it two years ago. I don't think it gets much better than that for reliability. Maybe it was a rarity, I don't know. But it worked for me.

If you want to acknowledge that you're comparing apples to oranges yet still do it, I guess that's up to you but you know as well as anyone that there is no way you can fairly compare a 4s from any brand to a 2s of any brand with regards to reliability or longevity. They're just different animals in those aspects.

The 1200 came out in '09 (I think) so is now starting it's 7th season. I've only had one for two seasons so all I have to go by is what I read, but aside from some relatively minor first-year hiccups (common at some point with most brands), most of their owners are overwhelmingly satisfied with them. The biggest complaints are that BRP hasn't offered a turbo and hasn't updated the plastic. Few if any complaints about reliability or longevity. So I'd say if they haven't moved past the "proving" stage into "proven", they're not far from it.

 

[momoney2123]

good post, I'm gonna ask John if we can have a section for debate only so we don't continue to hijack threads, than no one can blame us for anything, good idea?

Some body's gota keep these threads going!!

 

[Hoosier]

Can't we all just get along? Listen along:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jJIVK-daGk

 

[towtruck]

GEEZZ- 168 IN DEPTH POSTS ABOUT ENGINE SIZE - thousands of views -
I even talked to my shrink about this (yes my wife) and she said we were really talking about something else- I said I don't think we have the complexity to do that.......... she agreed!!

 

[mezz]

Wow, this thread has taken a turn to the grey side. Isn't this suppose to be about polling engine size preferences? So far it's reasonably close between 600 & 800 2's. All of the others are a minority, not knocking the 4's as there is a segment that they appeal to & perhaps one day I may be one myself, for the reasons mentioned, fit, finish, longevity, reliability etc....but for now, 2's are for me. Sorry for the rant.-Mezz

 

[towtruck]

I had an '05 600 SDI that had 10,062 miles on it, untouched internally, showing no signs of weakening (and believe me, I checked regularly) when I sold it two years ago. I don't think it gets much better than that for reliability. Maybe it was a rarity, I don't know. But it worked for me.

If you want to acknowledge that you're comparing apples to oranges yet still do it, I guess that's up to you but you know as well as anyone that there is no way you can fairly compare a 4s from any brand to a 2s of any brand with regards to reliability or longevity. They're just different animals in those aspects.

The 1200 came out in '09 (I think) so is now starting it's 7th season. I've only had one for two seasons so all I have to go by is what I read, but aside from some relatively minor first-year hiccups (common at some point with most brands), most of their owners are overwhelmingly satisfied with them. The biggest complaints are that BRP hasn't offered a turbo and hasn't updated the plastic. Few if any complaints about reliability or longevity. So I'd say if they haven't moved past the "proving" stage into "proven", they're not far from it.

I too have an 05 600 doo sdi (renagade ) it has over 8000 miles on it- many of them hard off trial miles-no engine issues- I don't think it's rare, I know two friends with similar stories -I just don't' hear about a lot of problems with the 600 sdi- I am not a doo fan, my 04 800 doo has had multiple engine problems (well 3) with about the same miles

 

[polarisrider1]

I too have an 05 600 doo sdi (renagade ) it has over 8000 miles on it- many of them hard off trial miles-no engine issues- I don't think it's rare, I know two friends with similar stories -I just don't' hear about a lot of problems with the 600 sdi- I am not a doo fan, my 04 800 doo has had multiple engine problems (well 3) with about the same miles

I had an 05 600 Renegade. Great ride but it ate belts and always needed a selinoid (sic) or two. Gas gauge was junk to. But I put 4400 miles on it in one season so it did get the job done. The flat black hid the belt dust pretty well.

 

[srt20]

I use sea and snow in my yamaha.

 

[Woodtic]

Not only do I run Sea&Snow ,but my gear doesn't match . I tend to stand up while off trail. There are three of the 4 brands in my pole building. I get great enjoyment out of sleds that don't leave me stranded. And last but not least,we ride.

 

[chords]

Is one engine brand flat out faster ? Thats what matters

 

[polarisrider1]

Is one engine brand flat out faster ? Thats what matters

Rider skill trumps all.

 

[snobuilder]

Never over until Yamaha says it is over just like Polaris did with PWCs when said to public done no more. Yamaha no where near stopping snomo division at this time or near future. You act like an OEM relationship was not a comittment? I worked OEM realtionships for 35 years & it takes a sincere comittment of resources for both compainies. At the end of the day the question under constant review is an OEM relationship more profitable than going on your own keeping tech in house. In this case both expanded their markets so OEM life goes on.....With that being said AR&D also goes on in house & jointly for new products ....Yamaha mfg location is unknown in the near future & could continue with the 2 locations Japan & Thief River for USA.

Sure it's up to Yamaha to declare there own death but if the next 4 "new" models are all Yamacats the Yamaha faithfuls will move on like I personally am starting to do.
Can anyone riding the Yamacat say they really feel like they are on a Yamaha?....I think not.

Face it ....no one ever said they was on a Suzuki just because that was the motor in there Cat.

 

[snobuilder]

The part that irks me is that Yamaha CAN build a #1 sled but they choose not too. No commitment .

The Yamaha 4 strokes were rolled out to satisfy the GD EPA regs yet here we are 3 model years past the 2012 emmission rules and Polaris
is getting away without one single 4 stroke in there line up.

How is this possible and the bigger question is, can all the mannies drop there 4 strokes now if they want too?

I mean why not?....must be some sort of pay off to the enviro-nazis involved but at least Yamaha could then
put out a lightweight sled, along with there reliable 4S sled to satisfy the majority ....if this JD poll is an indicator.

 

[momoney2123]

The part that irks me is that Yamaha CAN build a #1 sled but they choose not too. No commitment .

The Yamaha 4 strokes were rolled out to satisfy the GD EPA regs yet here we are 3 model years past the 2012 emmission rules and Polaris
is getting away without one single 4 stroke in there line up.

How is this possible and the bigger question is, can all the mannies drop there 4 strokes now if they want too?

I mean why not?....must be some sort of pay off to the enviro-nazis involved but at least Yamaha could then
put out a lightweight sled, along with there reliable 4S sled to satisfy the majority ....if this JD poll is an indicator.

epa is def limiting the 2 strokes. The engine design of the etec and the in effecient head design doo is forced to use to not burn as much fuel along with pushing synthetic oils that dont fully combust are just a few. Less fuel and oil that is burnt = less emissions. Right now they only have to satisy the epa at a certain RPM. What happens when they have to satisy epa requirements thru out the Whole RPM range. Maybe the end of the 2 stroke. Etec gen 2 supposed to be more complient thru out larger RPM range and more power. If there was no epa the manufactures could be getting much more horsepower from the current engines. Good thing for after market

 

[ezra]

I don't think the manufactures are leaving much on the table.
well in the 2st arena any way.
in fact I would say if 1 good thing came out of the epa is all manufactures of all toys and cars had to invest heavy in to fuel delivery and combustion.
now we have 250hp cars as the norm 350hp mid level cars 160hp sleds.
now days it cost a lot of money for a extra 20hp on a 2 st the oem not keeping a lot on the table like in the old days with crappy transfers u could clean up in your garage after work for a solid sled length. pipes now are lucky to pick up 6hp at best good for a few hundred rpm .
motor performance is the only place I will say the epa did a good thing . most deff not there intention