Airplanes - Twin Engine Cessna - Maintenance / Hanger

[Cirrus_Driver]

@FrNash and Tracker.....when you get a ping on your instruments that indicate "outer marker", what is that a reference to?
I'm guessing that's indicating you are within the radio control of the airfield tower on your Garmin set destination?
Also, I'm getting ready to call a couple of airfields in Northern WI to get an idea of cost to hanger a plane.
Can you guys give me an idea of the monthly/annual cost to hanger a plane somewhere up in the north woods, if you have any experience with this? Rhinelander, Eagle River, Antigo - U.P. ect.
Is there a big difference in cost between those areas?

I'm starting to question the necessity, and additional cost associated with the Cirrus aircraft, just to have the CAPS system and the security it provides.
Whether it's worth it to spend the $$'s on something that's unlikely to be used, when you can spend the bucks on more aircraft/avionics.
Like people have said, you can still land the plane, although it might be busted up on landing, that's what you have insurance for.
The only time these CAPS systems become a useful necessity is if you have a catastrophic failure of some sort, frozen ailerons, wing separation, or something highly unusual.

 

[warner]

instrument training-yes Ifr qualified-no
mostly VFR

 

[frnash]

@FrNash and Tracker.....when you get a ping on your instruments that indicate "outer marker", what is that a reference to? ….

The Outer Marker (OM) is one component of the Instrument Landing System (ILS).
See this (click →) ILS RWY31 approach chart for CMX, note the OM midway down the ILS approach in the top and lower left pix.

Hangar rental costs: I can't help with that in that neighborhood.
However, it may not be just the cost, but availability, it is very common for the demand for hangar space to exceed the supply. We were on the waiting list for THREE YEARS for a T-hangar at DVT!

You might wind up searching for any airport with available hangar space more than just shopping for price.

 

[Cirrus_Driver]

The Outer Marker (OM) is one component of the Instrument Landing System (ILS).
See this (click →) ILS RWY31 approach chart for CMX, note the OM midway down the ILS approach in the top and lower left pix.

I see - I was more interested in what it signifies - indication to start descent (don't think so)? What is it's significance.
When I consider all that's involved with long distance flight - cross country, it just seems logical and almost a necessity to get instrument qualified. Provides additional confidence.
You can't ever know for sure what type of weather you're going to run into in a 1000 mile flight.

 

[frnash]

I see - I was more interested in what it signifies - indication to start descent (don't think so)? What is it's significance.
When I consider all that's involved with long distance flight - cross country, it just seems logical and almost a necessity to get instrument qualified. Provides additional confidence.
You can't ever know for sure what type of weather you're going to run into in a 1000 mile flight.

The OM is simply an "X marks the spot" indication of a fixed location on the ILS approach, defined by the intersection of the narrow vertical beam of the OM with the ILS/glide slope signals. Some approach procedures are referred to the OM, others not.
'Tis really a fairly minor thing.

IFR training — rigorous and recurring, definitely. Additional confidence, yes. So you're capable of handling IFR conditions in an emergency.

Going for the actual IFR rating? Not so much. Unless you really interested in flying your aircraft as if it were an instrument flight simulator in an enclosed box with no external visibility. While that may be an intellectual challenge, I wouldn't rank it very high on the "fun of flying" meter. (Of course not all IFR flight takes place in IMC (Instrument Meteorological Conditions), one can often operate IFR in CAVU (Cieling and Visibility Unrestricted) conditions as well.

You will certainly learn very much about aviation weather, and the weather services available for both pre-flight planning and during flight. And how to plan a flight around the weather, how to anticipate and deal with changes in the weather during a flight and when to just land and wait it out.

IMHO, the IFR rating is expensive to keep current, and there is much more expense involved in maintaininging full IFR certification of your aircraft. It's really for the "I have to get there no matter what" pilot, with some attendant risk of going too far — into icing conditions, or whatever may be beyond your skill set/aircraft equipment.

P.S. Go back and re-read my earlier note, re: hangar expenses; I updated it after you read it

 

[bearrassler]

My dad had a couple of airplanes when I was younger, the first one was a 1965 Cessna T210, it was a great plane from what I remember. I think we could cruise at about 200MPH, being a turbo you could fly at fairly high altitudes and it had four seats, he then traded for a 1975 T210, it was similar but had 6 seats and no wing struts, he flew for business mostly but didn't have his instrument rating and did get weathered in for a few days a lot of the times. I remember the numbers on the planes and looked them up, the older one is in Colorado now and the newer one is in Wyoming, as he got older he flew less and got rid of it in the mid 90's as it got to be cheaper to fly on an airline than the costs of keeping the airplane. We did take quite a few trips with them and is was a great and fast way to get around. I took lessons but never got my pilot license as I was young and always ran out of money.

 

[Cirrus_Driver]

The OM is simply an "X marks the spot" indication of a fixed location on the ILS approach, defined by the intersection of the narrow vertical beam of the OM with the ILS/glide slope signals. Some approach procedures are referred to the OM, others not.
'Tis really a fairly minor thing.

IFR training — rigorous and recurring, definitely. Additional confidence, yes. So you're capable of handling IFR conditions in an emergency.

Going for the actual IFR rating? Not so much. Unless you really interested in flying your aircraft as if it were an instrument flight simulator in an enclosed box with no external visibility. While that may be an intellectual challenge, I wouldn't rank it very high on the "fun of flying" meter. (Of course not all IFR flight takes place in IMC (Instrument Meteorological Conditions), one can often operate IFR in CAVU (Cieling and Visibility Unrestricted) conditions as well.

You will certainly learn very much about aviation weather, and the weather services available for both pre-flight planning and during flight. And how to plan a flight around the weather, how to anticipate and deal with changes in the weather during a flight and when to just land and wait it out.

IMHO, the IFR rating is expensive to keep current, and there is much more expense involved in maintaininging full IFR certification of your aircraft. It's really for the "I have to get there no matter what" pilot, with some attendant risk of going too far — into icing conditions, or whatever may be beyond your skill set/aircraft equipment.

P.S. Go back and re-read my earlier note, re: hangar expenses; I updated it after you read it

Excellent summation - answered my questions perfectly. I get your point about the expense of IFR certification vs. the technical skill to use it without the "piece of paper" saying you have it. The way to go, clearly.
When one get's retired, and the time factor is mitigated to a great degree, it may become less of a necessity to get somewhere at a certain time.
Although, if you have a beach front condo rented in the Key's there is SOME urgency not to sit in TN for 3 days. The meter's running!
Thanks for the update on the hanger. I wanted to have some numbers to plug in the investment model tomorrow.
I'll estimate on the high end.
Your comments are very interesting, and greatly appreciated.

Oh - one last thing....do you have any comment on my statement about the practical use of the CAPS, the additional cost vs. the probability of ever using it?

 

[frnash]

… Oh - one last thing....do you have any comment on my statement about the practical use of the CAPS, the additional cost vs. the probability of ever using it?

"Just one more thing."?
CAPS is an extra cost option, no? (Additional cost — and weight.)

Probability of using it? Extremely remote, IMHO.
You'd need some kind of collossal "cat's-аss-trophy" for it to be of benefit, something preventing a controlled descent to a safe landing:
In flight collision with another aircraft?[SUP]1[/SUP]
Wing fell off?
Some mechanical siezure/lockup of the flight controls, rendering them inoperable? — I don't think that has ever happened in such aircraft. Failure of hydraulically operated flight controls (like UA232 at SUX in 1989) maybe, simple mechanical rods & cables, unlikely.

In most cases, at cruise altitude, altitude, glide ratio and training are your friends.

On takeoff or final approach it wouldn't help, it's not the equivalent of a military "ejection seat". Even then, plan ahead (no fuel exhaustion 1 mile short of the runway, please!). Stay ahead of the aircraft, and fly what you've got. For something like an engine failure on departure, just do the best you can with what you have and try to put it down in the best possible place available — something other than attempting a low altitude U turn back to the runway you just left!

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[SUP]1[/SUP] One of my partners/co-owners actually had an earlier in-flight collision with another aircraft in southern Arizona — and walked away from it.

 

[Cirrus_Driver]

Yes, what I'm getting at is, although CAPS is NOT an option on the Cirrus, (from what I've seen) you are still paying for it. Unless I'm mistaken it's on all Cirrus aircraft as std equipment.
I'm saying you can get more plane for the money in another manufacturer, by my logic. I hear you on the takeoff or final.
I think this feature probably lulls those without critical thinking skills into some degree of false security.
I'd hate to ditch one of those things over water with those fixed landing gears acting as drag. CAPS would help you there too for sure.

 

[DooMe2]

XXX
Im just finishing up on my private. its been 2+ years(too long) but work and life happens. Little over a year ago I purchased what I consider an affordable and easily maintained single engine plane. I rented initially because I was unsure if I was gonna stick it out. Its easy to get big hopes and dreams when you are looking at all those nice planes and price tags.
Just my .02
buy an affordable plane that is easily resold if need be whether it is to get out of it or to move up. A Cessna or Piper is a good trainer and very much in demand that's why all the schools use them. Easy to learn the basics and wont break the bank if repairs are needed. Go and get chummy with the manager at the local airport and find out who is who. Find a mechanic that you can trust and wont mind answering any questions that you may have.

 

[Cirrus_Driver]

Thanks DooMe2 - it looks like I am going to start my path to the license very soon. Where did you go to begin the process - local airport, or other?

 

[frnash]

Thanks DooMe2 - it looks like I am going to start my path to the license[SUP]1[/SUP] very soon. Where did you go to begin the process - local airport, or other?

Well, it sounds like you're getting serious, and things are progressing a bit faster than I expected. Perhaps it's time for me to suggest your next few steps.
(This should keep you busy for a few days!):

1. Join AOPA, see (click →) AOPA Membership info. Note these options:
   • Student Pilot - Free Trial Membership!
   ―(A FREE six-month trial membership for student pilots.
   ―Includes Flight Training magazine.)
   • Introductory Membership: $49/year.
   • Regular Membership: $69/year.
   ―
   
2. Where to begin the process:
   Get your FAA Medical Certificate! If you’ve never held an FAA medical certificate, you need to get one from an Aviation Medical Examiner (AME) one time only.
   
   If you can't qualify for an FAA Medical Certificate, it's "game over", so no point in spending lots o' time or loot before completing this step!
   
   First, read these:
   

• (click →) Third Class Airman Medical Reform.
• (click →) Third Class Airman Medical Reform - BasicMed and AOPA's Fit to Fly.
• (click →) Fit To Fly - Pilot Resources.
• (click →) BasicMed Pilot & Physician Guide. (PDF, 16 pages).
• (click →) Comprehensive Medical Examination Checklist (PDF, 9 pages).
―— The forms that you and your chosen AME will have to fill out.
​

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Getting that Aviation Medical Certificate:

Choosing Aviation Medical Examiner (AME):

1. (click →) AOPA, Aug 18, 2014, Select your AME carefully:
   Choosing an aviation medical examiner can be an important part of your FAA medical certification renewal experience. For about 95 percent of the pilots who apply for a medical each year, the encounter is fairly uneventful and the medical certificate is issued at the time of the exam. For the 5 percent of pilots who present some type of medical condition that requires FAA review, how you interact with the AME, and the AME’s level of engagement with you and the FAA, can determine the tone of your next response to an FAA customer satisfaction survey.
   ―
2. Airman Medical Certfication - AOPA (Members Only):
   To avoid any potential problems with your airman medical application,
   (click →) complete a trial run of the application before you visit your AME.
   ―
3. Locating an Aviation Medical Examiner (AME):
   (click →) AOPA online AME database. (Members Only):
   Looking for an Aviation Medical Examiner (AME)? AOPA has made it even easier for you to find an AME near you by adding a zip code search function to its online AME database.
   Enter the zip code you want to search, and specify whether you want to search for AMEs within a zero, 25, 50, or 100-mile radius of that zip code. You also can search by name, city, county, and state.
   ―
4. Also, check out …
   (click →) AOPA's TurboMedical interactive form (Members Only), and a …
   (click →) searchable database of medications (Members Only).
   

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Getting your Student Pilot Certificate:
(Technically you don't need your Student Pilot Certificate until your first solo flight — at least that's the way it was when I went through this exercise, so you have a bit more time for this.)

With an FAA Medical Certificate in hand, then you can get your Student Pilot Certificate.
(Yoosta be that on your visit to an AME, if you passed the exam, the AME would issue both the third class medical certificate and your student pilot certificate.)

A rule the FAA issued last January, 2016, and effective April 1, 2016, changed the process for obtaining a student pilot certificate by making it no longer possible to receive the ticket from an aviation medical examiner.

An update of the FAA’s web-based …
(click →) Integrated Airman Certification and Rating Application (IACRA) system …
should reduce the processing time involved in acquiring a student pilot certificate from two weeks to less than a week by making a temporary, printable certificate available after a short interval for security vetting. The temporary tickets will be valid for 120 days, during which time the permanent student pilot certificate should arrive.

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And beyond:
There's a lot more information available on the AOPA web page as well, for starters:
(click →) You Can Fly.

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[SUP]1[/SUP] "License"? Yes, everyone calls it that, except the FAA. It's technically a "Certificate"!

 

[frnash]

… Getting that Aviation Medical Certificate …

… Getting that Aviation Medical Certificate …

Late breaking news, "This just in!":

FAA, AOPA and everyone else is so thrilled and excited about BasicMed, it's difficult to find much information about this, but it appears that in lieu of participating in FAA's wonderful new BasicMed program, one may choose instead to initially obtain and subsequently renew a traditional Aviation Medical Certificate.

The big difference is that each renewal of the "traditional" Aviation Medical Certificate will require an exam by an Aviation Medical Examiner (AME), whereas in the BasicMed program only the first exam must be conducted by an Aviation Medical Examiner (AME), with all subsequent exams being done by a "state licensed physician", along with the other requirements of that program.

There may be some benefit in sticking with the traditional Aviation Medical Certificate program, as that would eliminate some of the aircraft and operational limitations of BasicMed. (Looking ahead to a future Commercial Pilot Certificate too, perhaps.

My best suggestion:
Ask your Aviation Medical Examiner (AME) for clarification on this issue when making an appointment for your first Aviation Medical Exam.

 

[Cirrus_Driver]

Good Morning FrNash....yes, the investment banker gave me the 99% GREEN, as in GO, to buy a NEW Cirrus SR20 if I want it.
I had a longer post out here that I deleted because I'm having a few 2nd thoughts about all the additional expense, like $12000 to repack the CAPS every 10 years.
Not to mention the issues with icing on this plane that could limit my use during winter months in northern WI.
They pretty much say it should be put in a hanger, or at the very least cover the wings and cockpit with a custom covering of some sort.
Annual inspections aren't too bad, and the new Lycoming 215 HP, 4 cylinder motor doesn't need complete rebuilding until 2200 hours, or 2400 if you fly 40+ hours per month.
I spent part of last night looking at an Acura NSX as an alternative.
The wife got sold on the airplane, so now she's annoyed I'm having 2nd thoughts. Go figure.
She likes the idea of traveling from northern WI to Waukesha airport in 90+ minutes.

 

[elf]

Just a quick note on getting your medical. I don't encourage being less than truthful but admitting to having had a kidney stone 15 yrs ago led to the end of my pilots training a few yrs ago. I then started down the road to get that excepted and could not. So the dream died. But that was OK, I did get to fly, do some landings and take offs, etc... so that was good. Would have liked to have solo'd but didn't get that chance.

 

[Cirrus_Driver]

Just a quick note on getting your medical. I don't encourage being less than truthful but admitting to having had a kidney stone 15 yrs ago led to the end of my pilots training a few yrs ago. I then started down the road to get that excepted and could not. So the dream died. But that was OK, I did get to fly, do some landings and take offs, etc... so that was good. Would have liked to have solo'd but didn't get that chance.

Hi Elf.....so you're telling me that because you had a kidney stone 15 years ago your medical clearance was DENIED???
They are actually that strict with these things? So every airline pilot flying today has perfect health, is what I'm to assume.
Yeah I had a 5 mm kidney stone about 4 years ago too, so that's it huh?

 

[elf]

Admitting to it put me into the the world of 'special issuance" for my medical. So i had to get all the files from when I had it, had to go to my current Dr to get a note saying he see's no reason I should expect to have another and resubmitted. That wasn't good enough so then I had a X ray and CT scan and that Dr said that although she couldn't see any calcifications forming she couldn't rule it out. So that statement got me denied again and at that point I gave up. As i said, I'd gotten some lessons in, did a half dozen or more take offs and landings, so I was good. Would've been nice to continue but I don't know how much flying I ever would have done. I told my instructor that one thing they need to do during ground school is tell people when they are filling out the medical checksheet online is say "no" when it asks about pre existing conditions regarding kidney stones.

 

[Cirrus_Driver]

Yes Elf....you can answer NO to all those questions, but then if you list your current doctor, and they cross reference your answers with the medical records, then catch you falsifying information, this could have other consequences.
I'd figure the medical records are private information, but who knows what access the FAA has in situations like this.
Sorry to hear about your situation.
I would never take it as far as you did and go thru the expense of a CT scan and all.
They did tell me that once you've had a kidney stone the probability increases of having another one.
I've been on 64 ozs water per day since my stone, to avoid future problems, as formation of stones is largely related to dehydration.
This is rather amusing to be in the financial position to buy a plane, but potentially can't get the certification.
Who would figure that?

 

[elf]

So there is the whole "sport" license that you can get. Not sure what the limitations on that license are but I'm sure FRNash can fill us in. For that you don't need a physical. The key to that, as I found out, is that you can't have already failed a FAA physical and then apply for the "sport" certification. While I'm not encouraging you to falsify that its very unlikely they would ever check your existing medical records except possibly in case of an accident. IE.. if you crashed because of a kidney stone they may look to see if you ever suffered one before. But if it was a good enough crash, who cares!

As far as expenses to do the tests it was all covered under my health insurance.

 

[DooMe2]

Thanks DooMe2 - it looks like I am going to start my path to the license very soon. Where did you go to begin the process - local airport, or other?

yes I started at the local airport. I found that most involved with aviation are happy to talk to you about and there is no better knowledge than the older pilots that have 30-40 yrs under their belt. Not sure where you are but I have found that CFI's are hard to come by unless you fly at a school. one suggestion that could help if time and money allows. go somewhere like Arizona plan 3 weeks and you will have license with now problem. No rain always great weather never get cancelled out. Have a friend who got it done in 2 weeks. take it serious get it done.

p.s. no matter where you get your physical done they are not gonna call and cross reference notes. it hard enough to get them to talk to one another when you have a situation that you want them to. I have a friend with commercial license and he has kidney issues and as long as he brings his paper work in order when he goes for his physical it is not a problem. I've read most of the posts on here (quickly) and I am gonna say you do have a few on here that are very informative........and most are third and fourth party stories. Get your ducks in a row be serious and get it done. You will enjoy every minute of it.