Consequences Of Poor Grooming?

[xcr440]

Plan on all of the MN state groomed trails like the Arrowhead, Taconite and North Shore to be junk all winter. The MN DNR has decided to groom only during the day this season. They will no longer be doing any grooming at night. The past few weeks I have witnessed this to be true watching day groomed trails completely destroyed a few hours after the groomer went thru. The warmer then usual temps play a big part in the day groomed trail conditions as well. Not sure what the MN DNR is thinking.

I always respect your reports, but this is not true at all. Well, agree on one thing, the trails were TOAST by the end of the day with the amount of traffic they had (Actually had some riders ask when the last time the trail was groomed, they obviously weren't the early birds in the morning), but, as Elf pointed out, the NSST was groomed both Friday and Saturday nights. And this is the Arrowhead about 9pm last night, I talked with the groomer driver TWICE on this little jaunt......

 

[mrsrunningbear]

We were on trails at the same time in the morning and thought not a good condition to start the day couldn’t wait to hit our unplowed FR connection to the UP which was delightful. I’m not sure why it was rough right after sun up?

Part of the problem is the groomer drivers are counting well over 150 sleds passing them when out grooming, even after midnight they're seeing 60+ this makes a big difference on the condition. You may not see them but the drivers are

 

[Admin]

Part of the problem is the groomer drivers are counting well over 150 sleds passing them when out grooming, even after midnight they're seeing 60+ this makes a big difference on the condition. You may not see them but the drivers are

We have been having weekend counts in the 600+ range per shift!

-John

 

[mrsrunningbear]

We have been having weekend counts in the 600+ range per shift!

-John

WOW!! It's hard to keep the trails smooth with high traffic.

 

[Admin]

WOW!! It's hard to keep the trails smooth with high traffic.

Most folks, even other club members, operators have no idea how different our system is from most. I am not crying, or trying to say we are better. Just way different from other organizations that maintain snowmobile trails. We average over 36,000 miles groomed in a season. For those that question why we have to pay our operators, those are some of the reasons! Cudos to ANYONE that operates a groomer!

-John

 

[oldguy]

I was going off what I was told by a CO officer a few weeks ago. Maybe they realized that day grooming doesn't work. I was on the Arrowhead last Friday afternoon and the Taconite last Thursday noonish and met the groomer day grooming on both days. I'll be going out again mid week and can report back

 

[HardwaterHoosier]

IMO day time grooming is pointless. The levelness can last less than 20 minutes on a weekend but can take upwards of 8hrs to complete a rout. Add in stopping for sleds every 3 minutes and its enough to piss a driver off.

 

[eagle1]

We have been having weekend counts in the 600+ range per shift!

-John

Curious how this compares to 90's when sleds sales were at there peak?? Always here how mid 90's was hay day for sledding numbers wise.
We keep hearing sledding is dying sport, sled sales are down, yet traffic is just incredible. Heard of few gas stations running out. So how was grooming in 9o's compared to today? Or is it sledders just putting on more miles now days and covering more ground in a day??

 

[mrsrunningbear]

Most folks, even other club members, operators have no idea how different our system is from most. I am not crying, or trying to say we are better. Just way different from other organizations that maintain snowmobile trails. We average over 36,000 miles groomed in a season. For those that question why we have to pay our operators, those are some of the reasons! Cudos to ANYONE that operates a groomer!

-John

Amen!! We pay our drivers too! IMO no driver should go unpaid. I always think, people should wear a pair of the shoes from a grooming club manager/operator for a week. It's a crazy job and not as appreciated as it should be. Keep up the good work John, it is very appreciated from someone who knows

 

[maxwell]

Our club doesn't groom on Friday/Saturday nights due to the traffic. Sunday night is pretty popular for grooming.

 

[1fujifilm]

IMO day time grooming is pointless. The levelness can last less than 20 minutes on a weekend but can take upwards of 8hrs to complete a rout. Add in stopping for sleds every 3 minutes and its enough to piss a driver off.

Does anyone remember the contraption that was for sale from the late 90's that attached to the rear mud flap area of the sled and looked like twisted barbed wire (sort of) and was invented to stop a sleds roost from ruining the trail?
It looked lame but I wonder if it worked?

Bear

 

[Admin]

Curious how this compares to 90's when sleds sales were at there peak?? Always here how mid 90's was hay day for sledding numbers wise.
We keep hearing sledding is dying sport, sled sales are down, yet traffic is just incredible. Heard of few gas stations running out. So how was grooming in 9o's compared to today? Or is it sledders just putting on more miles now days and covering more ground in a day??

Well, I cannot give a 100 percent through answer, as I was not involved in the grooming back then and I did not live here until 1999. BUT, with that said, I can say that in the early 90's we would come up here and ride Sunday-Friday morning. One of our trips back then was to go to Copper Harbor and back (from Houghton) and there would be many times we would not see a single sled until we got to the harbor and then they were parked, with the owners having lunch inside.

Then the winter of 94-95 hit and there was barely a flake to be found in the entire Midwest. I can remember driving up here to ride the third week of January and no snow on the ground until you got north of Bruce Crossing and then it was only around 8-10" in Mass City/Rockland and around 12" from Twin Lakes north to Copper Harbor. The snow was old and very well used and to make matters worse, the place was absolutely PACKED with sledders! It seems that many had looked for the only snow in the Midwest (true story, not riding except in the Keweenaw at that time, not even other UP snowbelts) and had come. Ever since then, the traffic has been high.

With the HP and lug lengths of today's sleds, they also do a TON more damage than they did back in the 90's, with 120 hp max and .75" being "deep lugged" for an average sled.

So the mid 90's might have been a peak as far as sled sales/registration goes, but these days it is an entirely different ball game when it comes to maintaining trails.

-John

 

[Deleted member 10829]

IMO day time grooming is pointless. The levelness can last less than 20 minutes on a weekend but can take upwards of 8hrs to complete a rout. Add in stopping for sleds every 3 minutes and its enough to piss a driver off.

I agree with this, daytime grooming does not work well unless traffic is VERY light.

- - - Updated - - -

Our club doesn't groom on Friday/Saturday nights due to the traffic. Sunday night is pretty popular for grooming.

I can't imagine not grooming either Friday or Saturday night! That is a good way to keep sledders away from your area. How can you leave the trails bumpy on the 2 busiest days?

 

[old abe]

Well, I cannot give a 100 percent through answer, as I was not involved in the grooming back then and I did not live here until 1999. BUT, with that said, I can say that in the early 90's we would come up here and ride Sunday-Friday morning. One of our trips back then was to go to Copper Harbor and back (from Houghton) and there would be many times we would not see a single sled until we got to the harbor and then they were parked, with the owners having lunch inside.

Then the winter of 94-95 hit and there was barely a flake to be found in the entire Midwest. I can remember driving up here to ride the third week of January and no snow on the ground until you got north of Bruce Crossing and then it was only around 8-10" in Mass City/Rockland and around 12" from Twin Lakes north to Copper Harbor. The snow was old and very well used and to make matters worse, the place was absolutely PACKED with sledders! It seems that many had looked for the only snow in the Midwest (true story, not riding except in the Keweenaw at that time, not even other UP snowbelts) and had come. Ever since then, the traffic has been high.

With the HP and lug lengths of today's sleds, they also do a TON more damage than they did back in the 90's, with 120 hp max and .75" being "deep lugged" for an average sled.

So the mid 90's might have been a peak as far as sled sales/registration goes, but these days it is an entirely different ball game when it comes to maintaining trails.

-John

Agree with all of that John. X2. The number of deep lug tracks on the trail today as compared to 10 years ago is enormous. Thus, the trails can't hold up due to the numbers alone.

 

[old abe]

Does anyone remember the contraption that was for sale from the late 90's that attached to the rear mud flap area of the sled and looked like twisted barbed wire (sort of) and was invented to stop a sleds roost from ruining the trail?
It looked lame but I wonder if it worked?

Bear

Yeah, I do. How would you like to have one of those things getting loose from a oncoming sled, at high speed, and coming right at you thru the air? That would be worth some "fujifilm" for sure?

 

[bonnevier]

Wouldn't it be great if the groomers acted/performed similar to a zamboni? You know, have a nice light mist of water laid down to help set up the trail even better. Would certainly help set up the LES!

Man I need to go sledding soon...only a few more weeks till my trip UP north!

 

[favoritos]

Grooming and trail conditions do affect traffic.
We have seen the shift to different areas over the years. This is just speaking to traffic in the Western UP region.
We spent some time hanging out with CO guys on a weekend day in the late 90s. This was along a trail just outside of Bessemer. We wondered what they were doing? Counting sleds was their answer.
We asked, "OK, so how many do you guys see in a day?"
CO response was, "Yesterday was pretty busy, we counted about 2,500"
Things have changed in that area. It is more than just plain grooming affecting traffic in that region. Trail reroutes have also been a big factor. It is much more difficult overall for many riders to comfortably navigate through the area. The change is quite evident when you look at the parking lots in front of hotels and restaurants.
The traffic that is on the trails is shifting to regions with more consistent trail conditions. The parking lot meter is fairly effective. Snowfall totals are a factor. The irony with snowfall is that less snow often leaves shallower holes on the trails.
It takes a lot of work to maintain a high traffic trail with deep snow. New sleds also make it tougher too. They can move a lot of snow fast.

My preferred personal riding style is not a smooth groomed trail. I am that goofball that likes to ride the ungroomed side of a double pass. It is easier to control the machine and nobody is coming directly at me on my side. I choose my destination and deal with whatever trail conditions I encounter along the ride. Rough trails have less traffic. It is easy to find a place to sit down and eat. Gas fills are not a hassle.

 

[old abe]

Wouldn't it be great if the groomers acted/performed similar to a zamboni? You know, have a nice light mist of water laid down to help set up the trail even better. Would certainly help set up the LES!

Man I need to go sledding soon...only a few more weeks till my trip UP north!

I recall several years back, Mi Tech was working with a "Trail Reconditioner/Groomer" machine. Seen the thing several times. It was intended to recondition the "sugar" type snow, so as to be able to groom, and pack it again, as to the trail to be able to hold up better. I know John can add to this. Hmmm? Perhaps this "Reconditioner" machine could be in need of what this tread was started for?

 

[whitedust]

Well, I cannot give a 100 percent through answer, as I was not involved in the grooming back then and I did not live here until 1999. BUT, with that said, I can say that in the early 90's we would come up here and ride Sunday-Friday morning. One of our trips back then was to go to Copper Harbor and back (from Houghton) and there would be many times we would not see a single sled until we got to the harbor and then they were parked, with the owners having lunch inside.

Then the winter of 94-95 hit and there was barely a flake to be found in the entire Midwest. I can remember driving up here to ride the third week of January and no snow on the ground until you got north of Bruce Crossing and then it was only around 8-10" in Mass City/Rockland and around 12" from Twin Lakes north to Copper Harbor. The snow was old and very well used and to make matters worse, the place was absolutely PACKED with sledders! It seems that many had looked for the only snow in the Midwest (true story, not riding except in the Keweenaw at that time, not even other UP snowbelts) and had come. Ever since then, the traffic has been high.

With the HP and lug lengths of today's sleds, they also do a TON more damage than they did back in the 90's, with 120 hp max and .75" being "deep lugged" for an average sled.

So the mid 90's might have been a peak as far as sled sales/registration goes, but these days it is an entirely different ball game when it comes to maintaining trails.

-John

The mid 90s were crrraaazy in the UP. We based out of White Pine / Silver City and tried to keep riding to 50ish miles from base just incase we had a sled failure and 2s did burn down. Most rides were family outings lots of fun and good times. Traffic could get unbelievably heavy and trails would have 3 foot mogules in some areas. We would always push thru the horrible and trails would improve. Grooming was worse then don’t know why maybe it was the sit in riding position. Lol I don’t think many riders took off on baggers or 250 mile days that are common today. I’m sure some did but not my bunch. After 2000 we started to extend to 100 miles from base improved technology gave us more confidence. After rider forward we just rode wherever we wanted watched gas range. Yeah technology has allowed the casual rider to put on big miles that were concerning in mid 90s.

 

[MKW]

Was in Eagle River this past Thurs-Sunday. Trails were better than expected. I usually don't ride weekends and Saturday was a reminder as to why. Took a break from Vintage race to make a run up to Burnt Bridge in Conover. Met over 100 sleds on the way up and just as many on the way back! All in all was just happy to be riding and see local bars and resturants getting business. Trails were not good by Friday night but there is nothing you could do, with that traffic no grooming in the world would keep up! Had a great trip though put on 475 miles...if your going to ride the weekends then that's just part of the deal. Especially when there is only 5-6 counties in the entire state open!