Consequences Of Poor Grooming?

MR.HAPPY

Member
What are consequences of poor grooming on snowmobiling in general and all snowmobile support businesses?? I can tell you there is plenty of snow on trails from Phelps WI to Iron River, MI north to Lanse south to Watersmeet back to Phelps. It definitely is not if those areas have snow it is the dedication to grooming that satisfies snowmobilers. Imo you take the good with the bad but very little grooming ongoing during the day and evening yesterday. There was traffic our pack of 5 was a small group compared to 10-15+larger packs yesterday. Imo areas that were bad simply needed to be groomed but little to no effort was seen. What is your view of this problem? What can be done to improve?

I can tell you from talking with many sledders over the last few years that Bad Grooming is why many folks have quit or are quitting sledding!
Way too many times that people ride trails with plenty snow & the trails are ****... If you want people to spend money in your area, Groom! Morning-Afternoon-Night!
If you don't want the sport to die, Groom! Morning-Afternoon-Night!
Most people only have so much vacation & plan for when there is snow, specially the last few years & get to their favorite area with pockets full of cash & in 1 day wish they hadn't came. It's not even fun for kids with good young bodies! Most people have other things they can do with the cash that sleds cost, trailers cost & the cost of a trip, so no enjoyment - no more snowmobiling!
It's been a problem in lots of areas in the UP for years, way before lack of snow was a problem & no one has fixed the problem, just keep saying the same o'l ****...
I've rode by many groomer sheds with trails beat to **** & no signs of a groomer being out. Morning-Afternoon or Night!
Sorry... But True!
 
D

Deleted member 10829

Guest
That's very good news to hear whitedust. The Sidnaw group has done a tremendous turn around as to what it used to be with that group. There is still some improvement needed by the Baraga Tourism on the 109 trail they groom. Even when there are very good grooming conditions present, many times they will turn around at Alston for no reason. Not good, and I realize that is a long groomer run, but there are ways they could fix that issue.

I think the Superior Snowmobile Club grooms from Twin Lakes to Alston, don't they?
 

wiharley02

Active member
Superior Snowmobile Club grooms 109 but to my knowledge their "territory" stops a few miles north of Alston (doesn't go all the way to highway 38). Superior stops around the power lines or N Laird Road. There are signs on the trail indicating the end and start of club "territory".
 

Admin

Administrator
Staff member
I can tell you from talking with many sledders over the last few years that Bad Grooming is why many folks have quit or are quitting sledding!
Way too many times that people ride trails with plenty snow & the trails are ****... If you want people to spend money in your area, Groom! Morning-Afternoon-Night!
If you don't want the sport to die, Groom! Morning-Afternoon-Night!
Most people only have so much vacation & plan for when there is snow, specially the last few years & get to their favorite area with pockets full of cash & in 1 day wish they hadn't came. It's not even fun for kids with good young bodies! Most people have other things they can do with the cash that sleds cost, trailers cost & the cost of a trip, so no enjoyment - no more snowmobiling!
It's been a problem in lots of areas in the UP for years, way before lack of snow was a problem & no one has fixed the problem, just keep saying the same o'l ****...
I've rode by many groomer sheds with trails beat to **** & no signs of a groomer being out. Morning-Afternoon or Night!
Sorry... But True!

I'm glad you wrote this and please know that I am not picking on YOU. This is the exact sediment that most snowmobilers have. It is the exact sediment that I had before getting involved in grooming. Unfortunately, it is not that simple and is basically wrong in its understanding and solution.

I have seriously thought about producing an essay on grooming. How it works, how it doesn't and what is to be expected from it. I don't have the time right now, but will give the condensed version.

When traffic is heavy, meaning you pass more than a dozen sleds in the course of an a hour or two of riding, the trails just do not hold up to grooming. In the high snow areas it is even worse. Here's why... The ONLY thing that creates moguls on the trails is sleds. Not the wind, not the weather and not the sun or lack there of. As each sled passes across the snow, it loosens it up. That lose snow is then worked more and ends up spinning out of the tracks of sleds. Over time, the loose snow ejected out of the back of the sleds starts to pile up. Innocently at first, but the more traffic the higher the bumps. Plus, the deeper the snow, the more there is to pile up into bumps. This is why areas that only have say 8-10" on the ground cannot produce 2 foot moguls. There just is not enough snow to do that!

So now we move onto grooming. It stands to reason that if you take a groomer down the trail with the drag properly set, the effect is to flatten out the moguls and leave behind a nice smooth snow surface. The problem is, that nice fresh ribbon of snow is still loose. So as soon as traffic hits it, the bumps start to form immediately. I have personally witnessed a trail go from 2 foot moguls to perfectly flat as the groomer went by and in 30 minutes the trail already had 1-1.5 foot moguls! 30 minutes! Imagine what a few hours more will do to a trail!

So the optimal time to groom is when traffic is at its lowest and temps are at their lowest. That allows the groomed ribbon to freeze up and harden and last longer against the abuse it takes from the sleds. This time is generally from around 1 am to 6 am. I will add that grooming during the day can help some. It will knock down the moguls and provide some with a smooth trail, but typically within a few hours of a day groom, it looks like the trail has not been groomed in days or weeks to the average snowmobiler. Again, this is for the busier times and only is worsened when the temps are mild (much like we have seen in many areas of the northern Midwest so far this winter).

I do realize that there are some trails that almost never get groomed and or not groomed enough- and that is a shame. However, I know from the majority of the complaints that I see, most folks think that the trail has not been groomed in days, when in fact, it was groomed very early that morning.

So what am I saying here? Well, in a nutshell, if you follow the herd (ride where everyone else is riding at the time they are riding), you will likely be smelling the rear of a cow your entire time. Think outside of the box. Go to places that are not packed to the walls with others riding sleds. Ride at times that traffic is low (Sunday-Wednesday). If you have no choice but to ride in the most popular places at the most popular time, then there really is not anything that can be done.

Until someone figures out a way that a drag will leave behind a hard packed (almost like concrete) snow surface, then trails are going to get bumpy.

Compounding the problems are the sleds themselves. The average lug height on a track has gone from around .50" in the early to mid 90's to 1.5"+ these days. HP has increased from around 90 HP to 145+. I am not faulting the long lugged tracks at all. They have as much right to be on the trails as anyone, but the truth is, they do more damage in a set period of time than a short lugged track.

I know our operations are doing all we can with the resources we have. Our club has an annual average of 36,000 + miles in a season. That is like driving a groomer 1 1/2 times around the globe, all at the blazing speed of 7 mph. All done from December 1 through March 31.

I really do not know what the answer is, other than more snow in more areas to spread out the traffic, but that is out of the hands of us humans and up to a much higher power!

-John
 

old abe

Well-known member
You couldn't have said it any better John! Very well stated. Consider the essay done! John, what became of the trail Groomer Snow Reconditioner that Mi Tech was working with some years back? Seems we ran across it several times up around Hancock, and Calumet?
 
D

Deleted member 10829

Guest
You couldn't have said it any better John! Very well stated. Consider the essay done! John, what became of the trail Groomer Snow Reconditioner that Mi Tech was working with some years back? Seems we ran across it several times up around Hancock, and Calumet?

I remember seeing it on the trail also and featured in one of the snow rags. They also used it for airplane runways in the Arctic circle area.
 

Admin

Administrator
Staff member
You couldn't have said it any better John! Very well stated. Consider the essay done! John, what became of the trail Groomer Snow Reconditioner that Mi Tech was working with some years back? Seems we ran across it several times up around Hancock, and Calumet?

Thanks! I don't for sure, but I seem to have a memory of it not holding together. I would not be surprised if something similar is developed by someone.

-John
 

Highflyer

Active member
I can tell you from talking with many sledders over the last few years that Bad Grooming is why many folks have quit or are quitting sledding!
Way too many times that people ride trails with plenty snow & the trails are ****... If you want people to spend money in your area, Groom! Morning-Afternoon-Night!
If you don't want the sport to die, Groom! Morning-Afternoon-Night!
Most people only have so much vacation & plan for when there is snow, specially the last few years & get to their favorite area with pockets full of cash & in 1 day wish they hadn't came. It's not even fun for kids with good young bodies! Most people have other things they can do with the cash that sleds cost, trailers cost & the cost of a trip, so no enjoyment - no more snowmobiling!
It's been a problem in lots of areas in the UP for years, way before lack of snow was a problem & no one has fixed the problem, just keep saying the same o'l ****...
I've rode by many groomer sheds with trails beat to **** & no signs of a groomer being out. Morning-Afternoon or Night!
Sorry... But True!

Bumpy trails / lack of grooming is way far down the list on why people are not snowmobiling anymore if it even would register. Parts of the UP could certainly do a better job of grooming but I also realize they face a huge challenge given the amount of traffic they see on limited trails along with fluffy lake effect snow. The snow they get just doesn't pack down into an ice base like we see in Wisconsin. Unless they get some good system snow with moisture it will also be a problem.
 

POLARISDAN

New member
Yeah I know Baraga is the Pipeline and was super good last night same with Sidnaw to the gas station from 8 intersection. I consider all that Sidnaw area trails as closest town you pass thru on trail. I give credit when credit is due and both Sidnaw and Baraga groomers were on top of their game yesterday and last night very impressesive well groomed trails very good imo.

they have been the best the last couple years..my go to area when in doubt

- - - Updated - - -

I think the Superior Snowmobile Club grooms from Twin Lakes to Alston, don't they?

yes alston up im pretty sure..and i dont think a groomer can get in the trees from alston down..thats why its a no go for me

- - - Updated - - -

Superior Snowmobile Club grooms 109 but to my knowledge their "territory" stops a few miles north of Alston (doesn't go all the way to highway 38). Superior stops around the power lines or N Laird Road. There are signs on the trail indicating the end and start of club "territory".

maybe at the power lines?
 

POLARISDAN

New member
john/lenny..havent been towards mosquito yet..but where are the groomer boxes? i had my kids here and would have had them contribute..but nothing anywhere..not sidnaw, pit stop, anywhere..unless im missing it..is it a theft problem? cant donate if its not there..

also in response to the big gripe..i still say 100 plus for trail passes for the season..and some kind of 30-40 weekend pass..where can u do anything anywhere for a season for 50 bucks..its a joke..even 200..if we can pay groomers to run more..maybe the problem lessens..its underpriced by far..geezuz i think a movie is 15 bucks now
 

Tomg

New member
Maybe steering a little off topic, but... Knowing that there were only a few pockets of snow in the midwest and that rider density would be very high where there was snow, my son and I bit the bullet and trailered out to the southern BigHorns for a extended weekend. Sunday, Monday, & Tuesday we saw a combined total of 4 sleds on the trails! They groomed every night and conditions were pristine. Off trial was a little thin but ride-able if you're careful where you go.

I don't think much of these problem have to do with how grooming operations are run. You just can't put 1000's of sleds per day on a trail and expect it to hold up and you can't expect groomers to run 24/7. If you do, then you better be willing to pay a lot more for our trail permits. BTW I've always thought or tail permit fees were a bargain.
 

old abe

Well-known member
Maybe steering a little off topic, but... Knowing that there were only a few pockets of snow in the midwest and that rider density would be very high where there was snow, my son and I bit the bullet and trailered out to the southern BigHorns for a extended weekend. Sunday, Monday, & Tuesday we saw a combined total of 4 sleds on the trails! They groomed every night and conditions were pristine. Off trial was a little thin but ride-able if you're careful where you go.

I don't think much of these problem have to do with how grooming operations are run. You just can't put 1000's of sleds per day on a trail and expect it to hold up and you can't expect groomers to run 24/7. If you do, then you better be willing to pay a lot more for our trail permits. BTW I've always thought or tail permit fees were a bargain.

You nailed it! I am with POLARISDAN all the way. UP permits should at the least double. With the type, and the cost of most sleds up there now days, it's back to if ya want to play, ya got to pay! Or, perhaps, head west young man? And that makes $100 plus permits very cheap.
 

1fujifilm

Well-known member
You nailed it! I am with POLARISDAN all the way. UP permits should at the least double. With the type, and the cost of most sleds up there now days, it's back to if ya want to play, ya got to pay! Or, perhaps, head west young man? And that makes $100 plus permits very cheap.

Another idea, give grooming a piece of the action of the tourism room tax; or better yet increase it for grooming only.
Oops, did I say raise taxes; my bad.

Bear
 

whitedust

Well-known member
Another idea, give grooming a piece of the action of the tourism room tax; or better yet increase it for grooming only.
Oops, did I say raise taxes; my bad.

Bear

I’m hearing the suggestion to throw big bucks at the grooming problem lately even from my riding buds. I don’t like to simply throw money at any poor performance problem and expect improvement but in this case maybe that’s the correct action as long as it gets to the groomers and they spend that money on grooming.
 

euphoric1

Well-known member
I too would be for higher trail pass fee's, however...… would the more money spent on grooming really help when traffic and snow conditions are as they have been recently? I have been up there when its like riding fresh laid asphalt and I have been when I might have as well been riding chisel plowed fields back home, and I will admit have been less than happy, not blaming groomers or trails, I guess not happy as I get to come up once a year and can be disappointing, yet I still go and I still ride. The only draw back of charging more is there are conditions that money cant fix and it will make the already unhappy few that think miracles can happen even more disgruntled. But all in all Id be willing to pay more even if I do only get 5 days of riding a year.
 
D

Deleted member 10829

Guest
I agree euphoric1, I'm sure it may help, and I would be willing to pay more also, but it's only part of the problem. Lenny had mentioned a few weeks ago on another thread that it's hard to get the guys to go out consistently as they are volunteers and many at the retirement age where they are in bed when grooming should be going on. Some just decide they aren't going out that night and there is nobody to cover for them. I think half the problem is getting drivers to go out. If they were all paid, that would surely help.
 

Highflyer

Active member
I agree euphoric1, I'm sure it may help, and I would be willing to pay more also, but it's only part of the problem. Lenny had mentioned a few weeks ago on another thread that it's hard to get the guys to go out consistently as they are volunteers and many at the retirement age where they are in bed when grooming should be going on. Some just decide they aren't going out that night and there is nobody to cover for them. I think half the problem is getting drivers to go out. If they were all paid, that would surely help.

Exactly! We need more operators trained on how to groom. You can't just have 4 guys and no back-ups. I was reading another site that poster said they were down two groomers because two operators had the flu. That can't be an excuse for why the groomers are not running.
 

1fujifilm

Well-known member
I’m hearing the suggestion to throw big bucks at the grooming problem lately even from my riding buds. I don’t like to simply throw money at any poor performance problem and expect improvement but in this case maybe that’s the correct action as long as it gets to the groomers and they spend that money on grooming.

I hesitated to discus adding tax because at some point it will get diluted into other projects and lessen the effect.
I'm stumped too.

Bear
 

MZEMS2

New member
We don't groom around here unless there is a huge storm that requires us to clean up road crossings and huge drifts. IT's pointless to day groom in our area because of the lunatics and disrespect when there is so little snow. When snow finally falls, people ride/drive like there is no tomorrow. The trails get so pounded and ripped up and washed out that night grooming is our only affective option to maintaining anything decent. I prefer to groom at night anyway. It's peaceful and I don't have to worry about some asshat coming around a corner on my side of the trail. We got a teaser here this wknd, and another teaser coming this week. Together, we MIGHT get enough to open the trails..for what I anticipate a few days at most. I anticipate grooming Thur night for the first time this season, and unless we don't get more snow...the trails will likely be junk by Sunday evening...time will tell. The snow processes better when it's cold, there's less traffic at night, and the smooth trail needs time to set up......
 
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