It's February............time to speculate on 2014 sleds..........let the fun begin

[whitedust]

When OEM relationships breakdown there is a reason Suzuki probabaly did not care to provide whatever AC wanted did not see the ROI in further relationship. AC going it alone on 2s DI is a joke look at all the problems Poo had & still not there. Could be AC is convinced 4s is the future & who better than Yam for that & Yam does have 2s DI tech for AC. As far as lighter platform Yam has had new designs in process for years but earthquake set them back & low snow years here + yen vs dollar exchange made it tuff road to hoe for new release. A blue rebranded Cat with Yam engine would not have much market value not what yam owners want. Yam engines in AC platforms would appeal to cat riders but not sure it would be incremental sales for AC just make their base happy. All will be known at the end of Feb.

 

[fusion]

15 1/2 yr old son has a friend who's father owns a rather large Milw area rec products dealer that sells Doo, Poo and Cra..., I mean Cat.
Friend brings home 2007 F8 last nite, so son is tooling around the yard on trial run for an hr. or so.
Sends me two texts tellin me how F8 no match at all for Apex, but sled seems to handle relatively well.
Kid who is into speed of course, says F8 is quite the "pooch" considering size of motor. Not impressed at all.
I see nothing much changed with AC. Not exactly sure how that company stays in buz.
Figured for sure they'd be belly-up by now, like they were a couple decades ago.
Other than wishbone suspension which is now old tech, I'm not sure what innovation AC has had in recent memory, but then again, I just skip their write-ups in snomo mags.

 

[ezra]

15 1/2 yr old son has a friend who's father owns a rather large Milw area rec products dealer that sells Doo, Poo and Cra..., I mean Cat.
Friend brings home 2007 F8 last nite, so son is tooling around the yard on trial run for an hr. or so.
Sends me two texts telling me how F8 no match at all for Apex, but sled seems to handle relatively well.
Kid who is into speed of course, says F8 is quite the "pooch" considering size of motor. Not impressed at all.
I see nothing much changed with AC. Not exactly sure how that company stays in buz.
Figured for sure they'd be belly-up by now, like they were a couple decades ago.
Other than wishbone suspension which is now old tech, I'm not sure what innovation AC has had in recent memory, but then again, I just skip their write-ups in snomo mags.

well to say a first yr run 07 cat 800 is a pooch is on target but that is a 142hp 07.I might add dyno tech reported a diff oem 800 from this yr is is less than 5hp more than the 07/800. 2010 and up 800 dynotech has cat 800 at 162hp
what innovation well there sleds still have the highest HP of any oem
the turbo is pushing 180hp
why would cat build a huge plant to build power plants in
mn then say ahh no lets start a new relationship with a diff jap corp so we can deal with a whole diff bunch of BS.dont think so.
every one wants to assume AC has no clue on what is going on with DI.
think they have not been building and testing DI for about 4 yrs? let me try to remember who was the first OEM to perfect and use fuel injection by about 10 yrs.
why dump what works and works well until the gov regulations say u have to.
will I buy a first yr DI heck no!do I think AC has the engineering team to do it yeah.
the only sled yammi and cat will have the same or share parts is still the 120.
why do people think cat wants a heavy 3cyl or 4cly carb motor when there 2cyl turbo kills in every drag race class that there is?
if any collaboration is going to happen the way i see it yammi prob not all that excited about building sleds. prob the smallest least profitable arm of there corp. they would not mind just rebadging to keep the dealers happy for a few yrs till they finnely blow off sleds alltogether.

 

[kip]

mspease, that is a pretty broad statement to say Yamaha has it's engine's going for it and that's it. It's too bad you're so narrow minded to only look at your needs. Yes, it's true, Yamaha does need a better crossover sled/mtn. sled but they do offer a very good trail sled including the chassis in the Apex and Vector. When I sell these sleds I rarely see them back for anything but normal maintenance. For the guy or gal who wants to put on 200 to 300 miles a day it doesn't get much better and how bout the bang for the buck. You can buy a 4 stroke Yammi for a great price which costs a **** of alot more to build than a twin cylinder 2stroke sled. Furthermore, who else offers a warranty like Yamaha from bumper to bumper for 5 years? That's right, no one! We may not always make the latest and greatest but we take care of our customer's better than any other manufacturer and you can put a period behind that for sure mspease I believe people are getting smarter to the customer service and the company who stands behind their product the best. I just hope instead of being so conservative Yamaha finally lets it fly because we all know what they are capable of. Looks like another storm coming fellas so let it fly. Happy trails. Kip

 

[whitedust]

Yam wants out of sleds then fine do it but rebranded paint job would have little appeal to Yam faithful. If that happened I would have to look at doo 4s, poo not a 4s consideration & if I wanted an AC 4s could have 1 now just don't want recalls & bad fit & finish I'm way beyond that. Also AC dealerships have dropped off over the years in my area yamaha ok, poo a little lite, AC scarce, here, but not in a big way. To me makes good biz sense for AC to use 2s & 4s engine tech from Yam clean OEM agreement here is my engine do what you want. Yam using any AC tech would have to be AR&D tested in measure of years not "hey let's take this & that and patch it together & release it next month. No one would touch it with 39 & half foot pole.I know I would not!

 

[Deleted member 10829]

I touched a nerve! I would never call you narrow minded though. When you are last in sales, you do what you can to sell more, such as 5 year warranties. How many 2013 Yamaha's have people seen on the trails this year? For me, it's hard to tell them apart from one year to the next. You made some of my points for me;

Yes, it's true, Yamaha does need a better crossover sled/mtn. sled
We may not always make the latest and greatest
I just hope instead of being so conservative Yamaha finally lets it fly

 

[kip]

No, you didn't touch a nerve and I even agree with you to some extent but to say the only thing we have going for us is our engines is narrow minded mspease. Yes, you are correct, we are last in sales. We however do not produce many sleds period thus it's pretty tough to grab market share. I can't speak for how many Yamaha's are on the trail but I can tell you that I see alot of them in the U.P. My points were not to be made for you they were to agree with you mspease. My only disagreement with you was to say we only have good engines going for us which is simply not true. Our 5 year warranties are not free mspease. We offer a 5 year warranty because we really don't need it like the other manufacturer's do and that is not said to be arrogant it's because we make the most reliable product on the market. You clearly have taken my words the wrong way. That's why I don't typically get involved in these controversial conversations. I'd rather say it to your face so you understand so stop in for some free coffee and a demo ride mspease and we can talk. I would expect more from a moderator my friend

 

[Deleted member 10829]

Expect more from a moderator? What does that mean? If I can't get involved in discussions because I'm a moderator, take the job away! I still haven't called anyone narrow minded.

Back to the topic. What do you see coming from Yamaha in 2014?

 

[kip]

mspease, sorry for calling you narrowminded but it was a narrowminded statement. Anyway, I don't know what's coming from Yamaha but I am led to believe that we will be coming together with Arctic Cat in some way, shape, or form. I just hope that if this is true we maintain some sort of brand difference to keep the competition part fun. I've been told that we will see a Yamaha engine in the Cat 4stroke sled. I've also heard rumors that Yamaha sleds will now be built in the U.S. in Thief River Fall, MN! Which would be great as it would product more jobs. Now this is all hear say so take it for what it's worth. I do know Yamaha has been building more and more product in the U.S. so this may help them from a logistics standpoint and it would make sense for them. I guess I won't know anymore until Feb. 20th.

 

[Ricardo]

Yamahas assembled in TRF could be very bad for their reputation for good fit and finish. That area sure does a poor job assembling Cats. Although that could be more of a design problem than assembly.

 

[fusion]

Makes financial sense for all involved to have AC and Yamaha merge - more so for AC since they don't have the capability to produce a 4S motor like Yam.
Could be wrong, but I would only see Yam giving AC a 4S motor to drop in a sled if Yam is exiting the snowmo mfg market entirely.
Otherwise why supply a quality component to a competitor and enhance their marketability?
If Yamaha merges with AC in any significant way and discontinues building sleds, I will be done with them, and likely heading to Doo 1200-4 or E-Tech.

And for those thinking Yam offers 5 yr warranties because their machines are prone to quality problems, it's actually the other way around as Kip says.
They can afford to offer an affordable bumper to bumper warranty, and even give them away on promotion because the sleds are quality products, and the cost is not prohibitive to them. Yam couldn't possibly do this if they were spending a ton in warranty cost.

 

[gogebic_sledder]

Doesn't make much sense for yamaha to help a competitor, seems like AC would be getting a better deal out of it. What does AC trade in return? Chassis ? If yamaha wanted to build a sled that was better than everyone else( mtn,ditchbanger,crossover) they would on their own. In think it would cheapen their brand to get into bed with AC or anybody else for that matter.

 

[ezra]

Arctic Cat Inc. (NASDAQ: ACAT) today announced that it has entered into an agreement to transition its snowmobile engine manufacturing from Suzuki Motor Corporation. Arctic Cat will begin manufacturing some of its own snowmobile engines in St. Cloud, Minn., after the 2014 model year. Currently, Suzuki supplies all engines for Arctic Cat’s snowmobiles. Suzuki will continue to supply the company with engine parts to service existing engines after the 2014 model year.

Commented Arctic Cat’s chairman and chief executive officer Christopher A. Twomey: “Suzuki has been an outstanding engine supply partner for more than 25 years and remains a significant shareholder in Arctic Cat. However, we are changing our engine strategy in order to gain more control over our products, and enhance our ability to meet regulatory and performance requirements. This also will enable us to better utilize our current engine manufacturing capacity, resulting in potentially better costs.”

Twomey added: “Our St. Cloud engine facility has been a great addition for the company since we began manufacturing our ATV engines there in 2007.”

The 56,000-square- foot plant is located on 15 acres and currently employs 41 people. At this time, the company plans to use existing plant capacity and personnel during the transition. Arctic Cat expects snowmobile engine production to begin in St. Cloud in fiscal 2015.

 

[kip]

Yamaha will never exit the sled market. Too much pride and honor for the Japanese. I know that has been rumored before but it will not happen. So that leaves us with the Yamaha/AC thing again. I believe Yamaha will offer one 4 stroke engine to Arctic Cat. I also believe Cat will offer their light weight chassis to Yamaha for a ditchbanger/Mtn. sled. I think think this would be a good move for both of them. I know die hard Yamaha customers will be a bit worried if this holds true but please keep in mind Yamaha has already been testing Cat's chassis for 2 plus years and that means they have already completed their own R&D if they decided to use the Cat chassis. If this comes true I'll almost guarantee that it will be a temporary relationship to make sure Cat will produce the product quality that Yamaha desires. Yamaha may sacrifice the weight game but they will not sacrifice quality short term or long term. If it happens I hope it's a great move for both of them and I hope it works out. I also believe this move would be an addition to Yamaha's already current line up, meaning the Vector, Nytro, Venture's, Phazer, and Apex will all remain. This is my opinion and it's purely my speculations. I do not know any of this to be true guys. We'll see! Kip

 

[whitedust]

Makes financial sense for all involved to have AC and Yamaha merge - more so for AC since they don't have the capability to produce a 4S motor like Yam.
Could be wrong, but I would only see Yam giving AC a 4S motor to drop in a sled if Yam is exiting the snowmo mfg market entirely.
Otherwise why supply a quality component to a competitor and enhance their marketability?
If Yamaha merges with AC in any significant way and discontinues building sleds, I will be done with them, and likely heading to Doo 1200-4 or E-Tech.

And for those thinking Yam offers 5 yr warranties because their machines are prone to quality problems, it's actually the other way around as Kip says.
They can afford to offer an affordable bumper to bumper warranty, and even give them away on promotion because the sleds are quality products, and the cost is not prohibitive to them. Yam couldn't possibly do this if they were spending a ton in warranty cost.

Companies can't merge & become 1 unless Yam buys AC & no evidence of that & would be considered insider trading at this point unless you are a gambling man. Very logical that AC would use Yam 4s engines in their sleds via a simple OEM agreement good for them. But I'm also NOT interested in in TRF assembled Yamaha. AC worst fit & finish in the biz not acceptable to Yam faithful. Does AC use Yam drive train too then all the better? If not clutch & chain cases could be blowing until AC learns more about Yam power plants. To me it is more logical for Yam to buy AC & Cat brand goes away & will be run by Jap. engineering & mfg. If we are down to 3 OEMS without Yam or AC sleds so be it & I too will be looking at Doo 4s best sled & dealer network left in my area.

 

[kip]

Pete, come on. This is all hear say. You are judging before anything even happens. Anyone deserves a chance before you cut the chord on them. All manufacturer's have good things to offer so don't be knocking them before the product is even revealed, it's simply not fair. Also Pete, Yamaha or Arctic Cat are going nowhere so you can quit bringing that up. Furthermore, you talk like it's no big deal if one manufacturer leaves the sport. Are you serious? That would be devastating for the sport as a whole!! We need all the support we can get from all manufacturer's to keep our great sport alive and healthy, there is already enough opposition. Pete, stop by and have a coffee, you need to be saved today buddy I obviously am loyal to Yamaha as I'm a dealer but well need all four manufacturer's!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[MR.HAPPY]

I've gota believe if Yamaha is doing things with AC they are in control of the production quality, fit & finish all the way or they wouldn't even think about it!!! Like Kip said, we have to wait & see, but it all could end up being very interesting! Yamaha quality will never waiver...... they have way too much pride & money if they want to tap into it!

Where is the new Crew Cab SxS 4X4???

 

[kip]

I'm waiting impatiently coldone! Suppose to be this year!

 

[whitedust]

Kip if Yam or anyone leaves the market so be it so totally out of my control & understand only profitable lines stay in the market & that is determined from inside the OEM. When terms like merger are used it is plain wrong unless someone buys someone else that is how a Merger works. Terms like OEM Agreement or Reverse OEM Agreement seem much more in line with reality than Merger. If Yam engines are used in AC sleds all well & good great for AC but does not give me what I want dealerwise or sledwise you know that I'm a loyal guy when it comes to dealers. Now if Yam buys a chassis tech from AC as you suggested & shakes it out to typical Yam quality specs I'm all for that too. EPS is a good thing but EXUP seems overly complex & forced premium gas use in Apex at 162ish HP to me was unnecessary 150 HP plenty already. I agree current Yam sled line up pretty darn good but mountain hardcore crossover is lacking but I'm not in that market & never will be but understand the need. I agree we need to see what comes Feb 20 very close now but Fusion & I both had very bad experiences with AC in the past mine was a nightmare so not willing to to open that can of worms again so the concern by both of us.

 

[kip]

Pete,

You're correct, if it happens it will not be a merger, it will be a gentleman's agreement. We both know the product is as good as the dealer that sells it so that being said most products are good if the dealer takes good care of the clientel no matter what they are riding. I understand you want what you want and I respect that Pete. We will see what happens. Take care.