Ya know I apologise for what I am saying. Just pissy about my trail and what is happening with trails in general. Just wish people would have some respect and decency to understand what is at stake here and the battles clubs face all year. It would be nice if everyone with an opinion would help out!
Mercer Snow Goers ask for everybody off trails tonight
- Thread starter goingnorth
- Start date
For the record I'm a longtime club member in the area I ride and do whatever I can to support the businesses in our area that do the heavy lifting for our trails.
Omg...High flyer...how in the world is it the clubs fault when morons dont obey rules/signs?? Yes...the clubs take the heat for that stuff...and the clubs get the brunt of the anger from land owners...and the clubs always have to fix the situation. But if a trail is closed due to a land owner issue, and there is no re route solution..then that trail is closed. It would be so much easier if people just stayed on the trail, and got rid of loud pipes/cans...and yes one of the biggest issues up here is old yuppies/hippies buying up land to live in the woods..and they hate everything with a motor...snowmobiles, atvs, utvs and jet skis...they want fat tire bicycle trails, no wake lakes (so they can kayak)...they are snobs from the city..eating their cheese and granola, while sipping wine...and they have nothing better to do than bitch...and since they are retired, they have all the time in the world to go to every town board, and county board meeting and raise **** about the sports we love..just ask folks in vilas county ...its taken years to get atv access going..and they still have alot of resistance...trust me when I say they'd love to get rid of snowmobiles too....Eagle River...the snowmobiling capital of the world has had tons of problems getting atvs accepted, and there is a push to turn a portion of the eagle river chain into a slow no wake water....yep...the loons are up here, and they are taking over. This sport is dying...you are blind if you cant see it..there is very little new growth...its too expensive for young families...I believe the average sledder age is 48..our sport isn't getting younger...its getting older, and there are very few young folks willing and ready to step up, and take over for us old club guys..been doing this for 30 plus years...but I'm burned out with the bs...might just have to hang it up sooner rather than later, and there are many of us old dogs (who do most of the work) who feel the same.
It's sad how after all these years, some folks still dont understand how a club operates and how much work is involved.
It's sad how after all these years, some folks still dont understand how a club operates and how much work is involved.
The work of the snowmobile clubs is so much harder today then it was 10-20 years ago. I get it, trust me. But its not the grooming, brushing or signing trails that is the hard part. ****, that's probably much easier today given the incredibly nice equipment the clubs have these days. You asked why the clubs bear some responsibility.....the answer is in your own post. Given all the changes going on with new landowners the clubs need to work harder then ever on the relationships with landowners that do allow access or to add new trails. That access cannot be taken for granite. I've seen it first hand in my area. Its all about relationships, ask any account manager or relationship manager is the professional ranks. The old landowner appreciation dinner likely doesn't cut it anymore.
Back to the original post that brought on my response, DAMAGE stated it was to no fault of the clubs about all of the lost trails in Bessemer. I disagree with that. I'm sure a few people did ride off trail which pissed off the landowner but that can be overcome. Its not like Bessemer is known for the off trail like areas further North.
I'm not bashing clubs. They are essential and I realize all areas are at jeopardy of losing trails. I'm just saying clubs can't have the attitude that DAMAGE had of "its not are fault" or "nothing we can do about it" in order for the sport to survive.
For the record I'm a club member, trail rider and I never touch the exhaust on my snowmobile.
Disagree completely.
For every "old dog" tired of doing all the work, there's a younger/newer club member complaining the old dogs won't let them do anything. I've seen it first hand in our own club. They are a great group of guys, but I think you have to have 200 years of club membership experience to drive the groomer. lol. Fine with me though, the last place I'd ever want to be when trails are open is in the groomer.
The sport is far from dying. The lines at the gas station, or crowds at any eating/drinking establishment tell a different story. It may not be as affordable as it once was, but what is?
WorkHardPlayHrd
Active member
So let me get this straight. The club not only needs to make contact, groom, brush, raise money, and have open dialogue with landowners. They need to have everybody in the club out at all times patrolling because someone can't stay on the trail. What are they going to do? Give out tickets? Maybe they should just chase everybody down vigilanty style and have guns mounted to the handlebars to shoot them down! The club is not responsible for people who have no decency for how their actions affect others. Btw if you think leaving the trail can't piss off a landowner enough to say no more trail can I come drive anywhere on your property I want. This sport is a privilege not a right, but maybe my thoughts are because of how my father felt about other's rights. Do unto others as you would want done to yourself! So here is a simple question, how are the actions of others the fault of the trail club???
We have more than just Harley...the Paper Mill, Louisiana Pacific, and Northland Stainless...decent jobs for our area, plus...keep in mind...not everybody who works at harley is from Tomahawk
You guys who disagree that the sport is dying, need to simply look at registration numbers over the last 25 years, and like I said the average age of a snowmobiler (as reported in a recent snowmobiling magazine) is around 48 years old...It's an expensive sport for young families to get into. It's far easier for a family of 4 to buy a UTV, and if you look UTV/ATV registration has tripled over the last 20 years....while sled registrations have declined (in Wisconsin, Minnesota, and Michigan)
I love that it's been busy up here...it's great....but honestly if we have snow it's always busy here between xmas and new years.
I love that it's been busy up here...it's great....but honestly if we have snow it's always busy here between xmas and new years.
I agree with "its an expensive sport for young families" especially if you have not been exposed to the sport in the past, hard to swallow the investment. And as far as UTV...unless you live in the far north or have the means or finances to travel the season is much longer for UTV making that investment far more justifiable.
D
Deleted member 10829
Guest
I'd like to hear his answer to that question as well. To say you are part of the problem is just crazy!
Agree with all that Attack! And I don't intend to start any kind of pissing match here, but the fact remains some portions of Wis, Minn, and Lower Mich, just don't receive the snowfall they used to get. Thus more user friendly $$ spent on ATV/UTV. The power sports dealers, who have been around for many years, will be the first to tell you this. We used to make many trips to these areas every year, but are unable to now days, as we did back then.
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sweeperguy
Active member
Longer season, and with up to seating for 6. May only need 1 recreational vehicle. As VS several snowmobiles.
Read the rest of my posts and you will see the answer. If you have read all my posts then it clearly is over your head.
I agree that the UTV scene is taking over. Not only is it hurting snowmobile sales but also ATV sales. We hit up an ATV ride every year in the Fall. Its almost 80% UTV's.
This is all happening with limit trails at the moment. Just wait until more areas open up the roads, fire roads and additional trails. I know many areas are opposed to it but its coming like it or not. It will continue to be a huge boost to those local economies up North during the summer and Fall months.
snobuilder
Well-known member
If you write too many words at a time, the folks who read it just to disagree with you will skim out the hot buttons for themselves....lol... I understand your points but whenever you come even close to putting "the clubs" in a paragraph as part of the problem, that is all that some will need to fuel their rage over a million different issues they have.
Highflyer
I get what your are saying and in certain cases this would have an element of truth to it. What I think most are saying is that the clubs work incredibly hard (all by volunteer efforts, mind you) to keep the trails system they have going. If those that use the trails used them as they are suppose to and do not break the rules/laws, then there would be no issues. The thinking is the problem is created by those that break the rules/laws.
Having back up plans is always a good idea. We have at least one re-route, sometimes many, every season here in the Keweenaw. Some are small and easy to do. Others are more complicated. Most of our re-routes are caused by winter logging operations, not reckless driving, although we have that too. Sometimes we cannot find a feasible re-route, so the trail is closed for the season or until the logging is done.
Each re-route encompasses many different factors. Some of them are hugely expensive. For us to put a new bridge in that will support the weight of a groomer and drag, it starts with engineered plans that run 10-12K. Then the permits and other legal related matters. Now we are ready to build. So the next step is to remove the old bridge and cordon off the trail to keep things safe. Materials for the approaches then can be brought in, clean fill to use in the approaches as well as along the waterway. New culverts are pretty much required by the state in these cases. Bridge support material, which is now mostly steel so that it lasts and then the decking and rails. All told, it can run over 50K to put a new bridge in. We had one that was over 100K. These are not things we can "plan ahead for" either. The reason is...each crossing is different and requires a different plan and set of materials.
There are also areas that are just off limits to snowmobiles. This will make re-routes a no-go.
So correct me if I am wrong, but all you are trying to say is that clubs need to be more prepared for possible re-routes?
If so, I believe most clubs up here are already planning ahead and not just reacting. Soon though, you run out of options and a post like this appears to try and stem the problem causing it.
-John
I get what your are saying and in certain cases this would have an element of truth to it. What I think most are saying is that the clubs work incredibly hard (all by volunteer efforts, mind you) to keep the trails system they have going. If those that use the trails used them as they are suppose to and do not break the rules/laws, then there would be no issues. The thinking is the problem is created by those that break the rules/laws.
Having back up plans is always a good idea. We have at least one re-route, sometimes many, every season here in the Keweenaw. Some are small and easy to do. Others are more complicated. Most of our re-routes are caused by winter logging operations, not reckless driving, although we have that too. Sometimes we cannot find a feasible re-route, so the trail is closed for the season or until the logging is done.
Each re-route encompasses many different factors. Some of them are hugely expensive. For us to put a new bridge in that will support the weight of a groomer and drag, it starts with engineered plans that run 10-12K. Then the permits and other legal related matters. Now we are ready to build. So the next step is to remove the old bridge and cordon off the trail to keep things safe. Materials for the approaches then can be brought in, clean fill to use in the approaches as well as along the waterway. New culverts are pretty much required by the state in these cases. Bridge support material, which is now mostly steel so that it lasts and then the decking and rails. All told, it can run over 50K to put a new bridge in. We had one that was over 100K. These are not things we can "plan ahead for" either. The reason is...each crossing is different and requires a different plan and set of materials.
There are also areas that are just off limits to snowmobiles. This will make re-routes a no-go.
So correct me if I am wrong, but all you are trying to say is that clubs need to be more prepared for possible re-routes?
If so, I believe most clubs up here are already planning ahead and not just reacting. Soon though, you run out of options and a post like this appears to try and stem the problem causing it.
-John
SledTL
Active member
How to tell there is no snow south of MPLS to Wausau, a JD novel.
This is my second year as an "active" club member, and at 24 years young I can tell you there is significantly more work to trails then I ever thought before. We have been working on a re-route since spring time and it still won't be completed 100% this year due to a number of various factors. Yes its one thing to go help pick up sticks one weekend a year, but really get involved and you'll see what people are referring to here.
This is my second year as an "active" club member, and at 24 years young I can tell you there is significantly more work to trails then I ever thought before. We have been working on a re-route since spring time and it still won't be completed 100% this year due to a number of various factors. Yes its one thing to go help pick up sticks one weekend a year, but really get involved and you'll see what people are referring to here.
John,
I agree the problem is created by those breaking the law (riding private land off of the trail) but I do feel some clubs could do a better job managing this before the trail is lost for good. My original question (post #54) was specifically directed at DAMAGE's (post #50): Is Bessemer, Mi club working on re-route's? In his post (50) he listed 3 trails they lost and the possibility of more. I thought my question was very reasonable yet I'm not sure it was answered.
I know the most important member of my club doesn't groom a single mile, brush any trails or pound any stakes. His main focus is working with the county, townships and landowners for continue access (sled's/ATV) and new opportunities. Maybe all clubs have a guy like this.....but that is why I asked if the group in Bessemer is working on new trails (post #54). I do ride that area about once a year when Northern Wisconsin doesn't have snow so I'm going to follow the situation as its discussed.
I also realize reroutes do not happen over night and can cost a lot of money. In Wisconsin the State will help out in some cases as my club is working on that now. It might take 2-3 years and special founding.
Kinda boring though; dust, mud 50% of the snowmobile trails are closed to ATV/UTV in the summer and then cleaning the machine when you get home..forget about it for me.
Plus, no adrenaline rush going 55 MPH.
My Ranger went on the trail for 100 miles when I first bought it last summer, I detailed it up, the plow went on and sits in the garage until it snows.
Bear