Michigan Fee increase next season???

[xsledder]

Don't get me wrong, I was not suggesting that anyone said they could not afford it.

The difference is $10. So right now, you are paying $35 if you want to ride in Michigan and you are ok with that, but $45 you are not?

You make $10 sound so trivial, but it’s not. I wasn’t comfortable at $35, but since I was already going to John’s event I sucked it up anyway.

The costs are more than $10. It is an extra four hours of driving time than where I normally snowmobile (St. Germain, WI.). It is an extra $65 for a tank of gas round trip to Hancock as oppose to St. Germain. It the extra wear and tear on my truck and trailer driving the additional 200 miles I really don’t need to drive to snowmobile. Since I have a company vehicle and the extra 200 miles is personal use which is a Fringe Benefit (in Illinois), it is the extra $33 in income tax I pay to the state government I really don’t need to pay.

Therefore, you look at it as another $10, I see it as saving ($45+$65+$33=) $143 by not going to the UP. And by not going to the UP, I get an extra two hours on the snowmobile trail Thursday night and get home two hours earlier on Sunday.

To answer your question, Yes. Why would I spend an extra $10 to go to the UP when I can save $143 by not going to the UP and get the same benefit? Therefore, for an extra $10, the UP has to offer much more then groomed trails to entice me to go up there after this year.

 

[famousguy]

You make $10 sound so trivial, but it’s not. I wasn’t comfortable at $35, but since I was already going to John’s event I sucked it up anyway.

The costs are more than $10. It is an extra four hours of driving time than where I normally snowmobile (St. Germain, WI.). It is an extra $65 for a tank of gas round trip to Hancock as oppose to St. Germain. It the extra wear and tear on my truck and trailer driving the additional 200 miles I really don’t need to drive to snowmobile. Since I have a company vehicle and the extra 200 miles is personal use which is a Fringe Benefit (in Illinois), it is the extra $33 in income tax I pay to the state government I really don’t need to pay.

Therefore, you look at it as another $10, I see it as saving ($45+$65+$33=) $143 by not going to the UP. And by not going to the UP, I get an extra two hours on the snowmobile trail Thursday night and get home two hours earlier on Sunday.

To answer your question, Yes. Why would I spend an extra $10 to go to the UP when I can save $143 by not going to the UP and get the same benefit? Therefore, for an extra $10, the UP has to offer much more then groomed trails to entice me to go up there after this year.

I was not trying to make the $10 sound trivial at all.

Now you are adding the cost of gas, wear and tear on your truck etc.... You had those costs this year and all years in the past. And somehow now because the permit goes up $10 Michigan gets blamed for those costs.

You paid all of those costs to ride in Michigan this year and paid $35 for a permit, but now next year at $45 for the permit, you are not willing to go to Michigan. So $10 made it not worth it to you.

This really is a funny thread. If Michigan permits stayed the same for next year, but all of the restaurants made slight increases so that your food costs went up $10 for eating in the UP for a whole season, nobody would even notice.

 

[xsledder]

I was not trying to make the $10 sound trivial at all.

Now you are adding the cost of gas, wear and tear on your truck etc.... You had those costs this year and all years in the past. And somehow now because the permit goes up $10 Michigan gets blamed for those costs.

You paid all of those costs to ride in Michigan this year and paid $35 for a permit, but now next year at $45 for the permit, you are not willing to go to Michigan. So $10 made it not worth it to you.

This really is a funny thread. If Michigan permits stayed the same for next year, but all of the restaurants made slight increases so that your food costs went up $10 for eating in the UP for a whole season, nobody would even notice.

Actually you missed the first part of my previous comment that I wasn't happy about the $35 fee this year but I sucked it up because I was already going to John's event. $25 is acceptable to me, $35 iffy, $45 (+ $20) beyond my benefit/cost ratio. (Do you understand a benefit/cost ratio and what it is? You also seem to miss all the intanglable cost I laid out that added to the fee that I dealt with until now. I'm glad you think it is funny.)

 

[russholio]

And, so we don't forget, this is NOT a state-instituted increase. Trail permit money is money paid by snowmobilers for snowmobilers. It is constitutionally protected from being raided by the state government (Two-penny Jenny tried a couple years ago; hence the constitutional amendment).

Personally, I have no problem with the increase because I've seen the improvements in trails over the years. I guess if lived in Wisonsin, Minnesota, Illinois, or anywhere else where I had multiple riding options, I might feel differently. But when you live where I do, (SE Michigan), Michigan is the only real riding option. Yeah, technically Canada is an option but with the price of permits there it's not an option I'm going to take very often.

 

[xsledder]

And, so we don't forget, this is NOT a state-instituted increase. Trail permit money is money paid by snowmobilers for snowmobilers. It is constitutionally protected from being raided by the state government (Two-penny Jenny tried a couple years ago; hence the constitutional amendment).

Personally, I have no problem with the increase because I've seen the improvements in trails over the years. I guess if lived in Wisonsin, Minnesota, Illinois, or anywhere else where I had multiple riding options, I might feel differently. But when you live where I do, (SE Michigan), Michigan is the only real riding option. Yeah, technically Canada is an option but with the price of permits there it's not an option I'm going to take very often.

And I agree with your statement considering you live in Michigan; why would you go elsewhere? And you feel the same way about Canada as I do about the UP.

 

[oldguy]

Higher trail permit costs will result in three different things from the outstate UP snowmobiler. First Sklar is right, no snow elsewhere, the UP will continue to get slammed with sledders. The UP will be more slammed when the trail permits are higher because everyone will make multiple trips getting the most value from the permit cost.

Second like others mentioned, when there is good riding elsewhere, traffic will be down substantially because why spend the extra bucks when you can ride cheaper perhaps closer trails. This also will keep the "let's go for just a couple of days in the UP" riders away.

Third, I think you will start to see a little bit of an underground economy with windshield swaps that have permits on them and creative ways to avoid paying the fees and still look legal.

 

[famousguy]

Actually you missed the first part of my previous comment that I wasn't happy about the $35 fee this year but I sucked it up because I was already going to John's event. $25 is acceptable to me, $35 iffy, $45 (+ $20) beyond my benefit/cost ratio. (Do you understand a benefit/cost ratio and what it is? You also seem to miss all the intanglable cost I laid out that added to the fee that I dealt with until now. I'm glad you think it is funny.)

Yes, I understand what it is. It is clear that $10 ($20 as you put it because you are counting 2 years) has put you over the edge.

 

[harvest1121]

I do not like it they are pricing themselves out of the market but will pay it. All I can say is if you do not like it Pray Wisconsin gets snow and lots of it.

 

[G]

Many valid points being made. We have trailered out from Mn to Wisc and Mich for well over 20 years. Pretty much the same 8 -10 guys every year. Though there are some of us that can absorb an extra $20 here and maybe an extra $50 there are some that have reached the breaking point. It comes down to keeping the group together. We have a really good bunch and have many sledding stories over the years. It is NOT just the cost of permits. Fuel, lodging - everything has gone up. We had another good ride this year but we did not reserve rooms for next year. If there is snow there are many places to go here in MN. We won't have two days lost - one day out and one day back. We won't have the gas expense of trailering. And we won't need any more permits than we already have. Best of all we can keep the group together. Yes, I know snowmobiling is an expensive sport. But there are some corners a person can cut. As far as destinations MN is not the same as Mich or Wisc. I will respectfully disagree with Skylar when he makes the point that if Mich is the only place with snow it doesn't matter if the permit is $50 - everyone will come. I have been to Mich twice when there was no snow anywhere else. Never again. The traffic is insane and there is no way the groomers can keep up. And that was during the week. For those of us that do just one big trip a year a daily or weekly rate might make a difference. Next year we are going to try to ride out our back doors to some place in MN we haven't been before.

 

[whitedust]

Today lots of sled traffic Phelps/Lando/ Conover WI. Light sled traffic Watersmeet,BC,Kenton UPMI & spread out over many miles. Trail conditions Very Good Watersmeet,BC,Kenton UPMI. Trail conditions Good, Fair & Poor Phelps/Conover/Lando WI. Trackside rental fleet out in big numbers for a Thursday as well. Really no comparison UPMI had sooooooo much more snow & trail conditions were soooooooo much better than WI trails yet the traffic was in all WI not UPMI. I wonder why could it be the cost of a MI trail permit???

 

[pfd_crew]

seriously, everyone is going to whine about a 50 dollar permit that gets them four months of enjoyment. put that into comparison to other forms of entertainment/enjoyment you pay for.

 

[xsledder]

seriously, everyone is going to whine about a 50 dollar permit that gets them four months of enjoyment. put that into comparison to other forms of entertainment/enjoyment you pay for.

Here's the whine/complain comment again. Really? Did you read the thread from the beginning? Saying your not going to ride somewhere because of price constitutes whining?

For a state that is in second place for financial troubles, I would think you would give the trail permits away to entice people to visit your state and spend money in it.

 

[russholio]

For a state that is in second place for financial troubles, I would think you would give the trail permits away to entice people to visit your state and spend money in it.

Good idea in theory, but then how would the trails get groomed? Remember, the state doesn't pay for any of it. Trail permit money is what helps pay for grooming/maintenance costs. MSA sets the price of the permits; the DNR administers the fund.

 

[whitedust]

Looks like way too many hands in the pie. MI should look at streamlining administration costs pass the cost savings to permit purchasers. I dislike big gov a huge wate of money.

 

[xsledder]

I'm confused. DNR gets $6.33/yr from the registration. Then they get $0.50 from the permit. Then you pay $2.67/yr for trail easement acct from the registration plus $33.50/yr from the permit for planning, construction, maintaining & acquiring trails. (Isn't trail easement acct and acquiring trails double dipping?) What does the Secretary of State do for you for $1/yr?

And then it says the $33.50 goes to snowmobile clubs "& County Parks". It sounds like this is a big slush fund for the DNR. Do they breakdown how much goes to the clubs and parks?

The snowmobile trails are groomed, but how many new snowmobile trails have been added to the trail system the past 5-10 yrs? I haven't seen any added to the snowmobile trail system in that time period.

 

[russholio]

There have been at least a couple of trails added. I can't give a definite number, but the rail grade between Indian River and Cheboygan is one example, and I believe the connector between Mancelona and the Blue Bear trail is a fairly recent addition.

Sorry, I can't explain the how's and why's of the distribution of funds. I just posted that so everybody could see the breakdown.

 

[whitedust]

If WUPMI added new trails to system well worth the increase for repeat visitors & newbies. Not much of the WUPMI that the high mile power crusier has not seen many times. New trails would stimulate WUPMI winter economy & well worth the higher trail permit investment.

 

[upsledder]

Just think how much it would have cost to construct the trails instead of being blessed with the abandoned railroad grades. As far as new trails, I don't think they want that. The way it is now, it only takes a few wardens to watch the activity of many sledders. Yet another reason to stay in WI, lots of secondary trails.

 

[famousguy]

Just think how much it would have cost to construct the trails instead of being blessed with the abandoned railroad grades. As far as new trails, I don't think they want that. The way it is now, it only takes a few wardens to watch the activity of many sledders. Yet another reason to stay in WI, lots of secondary trails.

Well. wisledder, I guess since you hate Michigan's trail permit prices, DNR officers, railroad grade trails, and freshly groomed trails, maybe it would be best for you to stay in WI.

 

[600hoic]

Well. wisledder, I guess since you hate Michigan's trail permit prices, DNR officers, railroad grade trails, and freshly groomed trails, maybe it would be best for you to stay in WI.

Wow, you know how to make someone feel welcome. Better be careful, snowmobiling is about all Michigan has left! Even their football programs have left the state!


Go B U C K E Y E S!!!!!!!!