Michigan removing turn ahead signs

[xsledder]

For starts I am not an engineer and have no idea what enurmous liabiltiy is. Is this some Austin Powers joke? Whatever, I am sure a second year law student could still get your house if need be. Secondly Semis typically travel on roads and not snowmobile trails. Roads have shoulders and get to be about 25 feet wide. Except in Bangladesh, maybe. In the US a blind woman with a stick could easily pilot a semi down any typical interstate. There are no similarities to snowmobiles here at all. Unless she is also texting.

One thing I learned in my 20+ year career in engineering is when to stop arguing with someone when they are splitting hairs. The second thing that always makes me chuckle is when someone states their not an engineer but tells me how a road is designed. I'm always reminded of the television commercial where the actors says "I'm not a doctor but I play one on TV," which I know their making fun of actor endorsements. So, since I really don't have anything more constructive to add to this thread, without first reading the letter, report, or whatever it is someone was going to post, I will check in once in a while otherwise I'll let the thread take its natural course into discussion forum obscurity.

 

[mride460]

I saw this pretty cool looking ice covered rock outcropping while actually out riding today. I didn't see a sign anywhere around it!! ;-)

 

[LEWISTON]

I would guess there may be a small spike in accidents over the first year or two but those numbers will most likely fall back to the current average that has been seen over the past few years...

Really? It is like saying, "I guess a few extra folks may die the first couple years but then it will get back to normal death rates"

I am most certain the reduction in sign costs will trickle down to a decrease in trail permit costs.

 

[mride460]

Really? It is like saying, "I guess a few extra folks may die the first couple years but then it will get back to normal death rates"

I am most certain the reduction in sign costs will trickle down to a decrease in trail permit costs.

Thats exactly what I was saying!!
People that relied on the signs to go faster than they should will be more prone to crashing until they get used to there being no signs, at which point their chance of crashing will go back to prior levels.. Its really a pretty simple concept.

 

[whitedust]

Thats exactly what I was saying!!
People that relied on the signs to go faster than they should will be more prone to crashing until they get used to there being no signs, at which point their chance of crashing will go back to prior levels.. Its really a pretty simple concept.

Sorry that makes no sense. Too many variables to list to even start that discussion too far apart to begin.

 

[mride460]

Sorry that makes no sense. Too many variables to list to even start that discussion too far apart to begin.

Maybe we can get some more engineers or statisticians to chime in and have it make sense.
There will be a spike (large or small time will tell) in accidents once the signs come down. Once folks become accustomed to there being no signs and start riding within their abilities the number of accidents should decrease.. IMO

Whitedust, did you log any fun miles today?

 

[whitedust]

Maybe we can get some more engineers or statisticians to chime in and have it make sense.
There will be a spike (large or small time will tell) in accidents once the signs come down. Once folks become accustomed to there being no signs and start riding within their abilities the number of accidents should decrease.. IMO



Whitedust, did you log any fun miles today?

Not going there on your prior statement but anywho no riding today waiting for warm up to pass & not going to be kind to Phelps trails. Just have to wait till Monday see what traffic & warm temps did to them. Might go out Sat & screw around in FR maze but no big trail miles planned until Monday soonest.

 

[mride460]

Not going there on your prior statement but anywho no riding today waiting for warm up to pass & not going to be kind to Phelps trails. Just have to wait till Monday see what traffic & warm temps did to them. Might go out Sat & screw around in FR maze but no big trail miles planned until Monday soonest.

I hear ya on the warm up!! I went out today, got in about 160 miles. Conditions were actually pretty good. Rode in a snow-cross shell and a t-shirt, way to warm out.
Hopefully it wont get to bad before it cools back down..

 

[Marty]

Originally Posted by LEWISTON
Really? It is like saying, "I guess a few extra folks may die the first couple years but then it will get back to normal death rates"

I am most certain the reduction in sign costs will trickle down to a decrease in trail permit costs.

Thats exactly what I was saying!!
People that relied on the signs to go faster than they should will be more prone to crashing until they get used to there being no signs, at which point their chance of crashing will go back to prior levels.. Its really a pretty simple concept.

The problem is the "people", Ricky Racer, Joe Rocket or just a plain old maniac are not going to just kill themselves...if they lose it in a left turn they are out in the bush, lose it in a right turn, head on with me, you, my family, your kids, pretty non selective. What to do, stay home till we get back to acceptable death rates?

 

[mride460]

Originally Posted by LEWISTON
Really? It is like saying, "I guess a few extra folks may die the first couple years but then it will get back to normal death rates"

I am most certain the reduction in sign costs will trickle down to a decrease in trail permit costs.




The problem is the "people", Ricky Racer, Joe Rocket or just a plain old maniac are not going to just kill themselves...if they lose it in a left turn they are out in the bush, lose it in a right turn, head on with me, you, my family, your kids, pretty non selective. What to do, stay home till we get back to acceptable death rates?

Let me try to clarify what I've been trying to say... I THINK there will be a negative outcome to sign removal before we see anything positive come of it, like safer trails.. Time will tell.. I'm done with this horse!!

Did I show you the powerline I rode today?

 

[G]

It really needs to snow. 49 degrees here today. This is starting to suck. Would love to ride out and have a chat with xsledder in a nice cozy bar but I can't even get out of my yard. Very abnormal conditions for Jan 5. Perhaps we will have winter in April. That would be kind of neat. No groomers, no enforcement - surfing water when you need to - kind of back to the good old days. What would appropriate signage say for open water ahead? Rookies go home?

 

[mride460]

It really needs to snow. 49 degrees here today. This is starting to suck. Would love to ride out and have a chat with xsledder in a nice cozy bar but I can't even get out of my yard. Very abnormal conditions for Jan 5. Perhaps we will have winter in April. That would be kind of neat. No groomers, no enforcement - surfing water when you need to - kind of back to the good old days. What would appropriate signage say for open water ahead? Rookies go home?

The signage would have to go through the DNR engineering department,be submitted to a committee who will have a meeting about setting a date to have a public comment session where no one will show up so the new signs will get put up on the trail without public knowledge causing an outcry from all the trail riders who will start a thread on a forum where it will be debated for weeks and weeks without having the slightest bit of influence on what the DNR, state or the MSA will do about it!! ;-o

 

[upsledder]

Curves can be trouble but nothing sneaks up on you like a narrow bridge with two foot moguls while cruising a grade at night. I hope they leave the "Bridge Ahead" signs alone.

 

[coldbear]

If one person dies from sign removal.....will all this be worth it? Honestly John, can you say that if Nora blew a curve do to whiteout conditions and was killed the lack of signage was appropriate? No way. I'll do my own thinking about situational awareness. If the signs are there...leave em' alone. And to the Mich. DNR ? Please find something to do that's senseable.

 

[elm103]

Off trail vs Trail

Do you realize how many sled were here this weekend? How many problems? Leave those signs right where they are.They cause far less problems than without them. I always love it when the off trail people know all there is about on trail. Take for example the use of hand signs.I thank every one who uses them. Just my two cents.

 

[coldbear]

X2 Elm103. hand signals saved my bacon many times while boogying down the trail. They are simple and effective. But times are changing...and they[hand signals] just ain't cool anymore.?

 

[Polarice]

I just got a response from the email that I sent the DNR regarding this issue. It is copied and pasted below:

Dear Mr. Moore,



Thank you for your email of December 29, 2011, to Director Rodney A. Stokes, Department of Natural Resources (DNR) regarding snowmobile trail signs. Director Stokes has referred your inquirey to DNR’s Parks and Recreation Division for response.



We queried our field staff involved in the field operations of the snowmobile trails program. The DNR has not requested any of the snowmobile clubs to remove all of the curve signs from trail signs.



If you have any further questions regarding this matter, please feel free to call me at the number below.



Best regards,



Steve Kubisiak

Recreation and Trails Program Coordinator

Forest Management Division

Department of Natural Resources

Phone (517) 373-1665

Fax (517) 373-2443

kubisiaks@michigan.gov

www.michigan.gov

Check Yes for the outdoors! Learn more about the Recreation Passport at www.michigan.gov/recreationpassport


So there you go. Right from the horses mouth.

 

[polarisrider1]

I just got a response from the email that I sent the DNR regarding this issue. It is copied and pasted below:

Dear Mr. Moore,



Thank you for your email of December 29, 2011, to Director Rodney A. Stokes, Department of Natural Resources (DNR) regarding snowmobile trail signs. Director Stokes has referred your inquirey to DNR’s Parks and Recreation Division for response.



We queried our field staff involved in the field operations of the snowmobile trails program. The DNR has not requested any of the snowmobile clubs to remove all of the curve signs from trail signs.



If you have any further questions regarding this matter, please feel free to call me at the number below.



Best regards,



Steve Kubisiak

Recreation and Trails Program Coordinator

Forest Management Division

Department of Natural Resources

Phone (517) 373-1665

Fax (517) 373-2443

kubisiaks@michigan.gov

www.michigan.gov

Check Yes for the outdoors! Learn more about the Recreation Passport at www.michigan.gov/recreationpassport


So there you go. Right from the horses mouth.

Read the wording closely, not all the signs, he did not mention some of the signs. The curve ahaed signs are down in Irons. we have the arrow right in the center of the curves.

 

[united]

I guess call him back and ask if they asked the clubs to remove ANY signs at all. If they did, what exact signs and what was the criteria.

 

[Polarice]

I caught the wording. I think I'll give him a call next week.