Michigan removing turn ahead signs

[wilson]

dealt with alot of engineers, and after awhile when they kept saying " i'm the engineer" i would ask them which railroad they worked for, and if they got to blow the horn. lol

 

[G]

Read my prior posts about expectations. And how are they one lane passageways? Most groomers are approximately 8' to 8'-6" wide while sleds can't be over 4' wide.

There is not an engineer in the world that would sign off liability on a two way snowmobile trail in say Wisconsin where there are no daytime speed limits no matter how much you researched it or signed it according to 'expectations'. Also your generalization about 8' to 8'6" groomers is not valid. There are no laws about how wide a groomer can or can't be. And finally there ARE sleds that are wider than 4' wide. In order to properly 'engineer' a snowmobile trail there are a lot of gray areas that would have to be cleaned up beforehand. No matter how or if this could be achieved there is still no replacement for common sense. Natural selection will kill off the idiots over time no matter how many well meaning engineers try to intervene. No slam to you or your profession but the dumb folks outnumber you 100 to 1. People have killed themselves with toothbrushes and garbage disposals. It gets even easier to kill yourself when you have 160 hp betwwen your legs. Just one last thought - Say that trails WERE 8' 6" wide and sleds WERE no greater than 4' wide what exactly is an engineer's margin for error when both are traveling at 100 mph directly at each other on a groomed trail??????? We are not talking about asphalt or concrete but a nice slippery snow/ice mix of a trail. Kinda tight even for Ricky.

 

[whitedust]

Snowmobile trails are not like highways or bike trails. Snowmobile trails are basically ONE lane passageways. So are most bike trails but bikes do not travel at 100 mph. How would you ever begin to 'engineer' signage for a lane where opposite travel at high rates of speed are commonplace? To me there would have to be 'Watch For Oncoming Traffic' signs every 1/4 mile to even begin to start addressing the whole signing thing if you were going to do it from an all bases covered engineering
standpoint. Again, you could put up a million signs and people with no workable common sense will still have trouble. If existing signs are in place leave them alone. The general public will 'sign' the really dirty corners on their own with homemade signage. Signs that are really needed will be there. All the other stupid and useless signs will be gone. That is how it used to be before groomed trails and DNR and clubs. With the DNR came groomed trails but also regulations and BS. Sometimes I wonder if it was worth it.

Yes Grub tree art is the answer. I'm new to this kind of art but very constructive stuff.IMO

 

[Skylar]

Tree art, is that the art that happens when a guy misses a corner on his sled and wraps it around a tree? Even though there WAS a curve ahead sign up, but he was right on the bumper of his buddy in front of him 'cause they were racing to the next bar and he didn't see the curve ahead sign?

 

[whitedust]

Art is Art some better some not so good if that is art to you then so be it is Art. I can think of better examples but may not be art to you.

 

[G]

Tree Art is when the trail turns onto a firelane or road for a certain distance before the trail resumes back into the woods. It is very common for riders to 'race' during this interval. Tree art can take many forms to draw the rider's attention back to the trail he is supposed to take. Here in MN it is common to see flourescent orange 'POLICE LINE DO NOT CROSS' tape in the trees right before you are supposed to turn back into the woods. This is because so many outdoors folks in MN not only snowmobile but are members of local fire or ambulance depts and have access to such message tape. Thank You DNR. But we will be fine without you.

 

[G]

If Polarisrider and Whitedust are missing corners because signs have been removed then this is a bad situation. Any transition one way or the other should be gradual.

 

[whitedust]

Yep Grub I always carry strips of plastic for markers but red reflective tape now in bag. If I end up in pickers due to no curve warning sign the tape is going up. This way other riders know to look out unmarked curve ahead. Got to take care of fellow riders no twisting in the wind when it comes to trail saftey.

 

[xsledder]

There is not an engineer in the world that would sign off liability on a two way snowmobile trail in say Wisconsin where there are no daytime speed limits no matter how much you researched it or signed it according to 'expectations'. Also your generalization about 8' to 8'6" groomers is not valid. There are no laws about how wide a groomer can or can't be. And finally there ARE sleds that are wider than 4' wide. In order to properly 'engineer' a snowmobile trail there are a lot of gray areas that would have to be cleaned up beforehand. No matter how or if this could be achieved there is still no replacement for common sense. Natural selection will kill off the idiots over time no matter how many well meaning engineers try to intervene. No slam to you or your profession but the dumb folks outnumber you 100 to 1. People have killed themselves with toothbrushes and garbage disposals. It gets even easier to kill yourself when you have 160 hp betwwen your legs. Just one last thought - Say that trails WERE 8' 6" wide and sleds WERE no greater than 4' wide what exactly is an engineer's margin for error when both are traveling at 100 mph directly at each other on a groomed trail??????? We are not talking about asphalt or concrete but a nice slippery snow/ice mix of a trail. Kinda tight even for Ricky.

First, you wouldn't believe the stuff I signed with enormous liability.

Second, I never said there was a law about groomer widths. I stated how wide they typically are.

Third, Wisconsin State Law
Chapter 350
350.09 Headlamps, tail lamps, and brakes, etc.
(8m) No person may operate, offer for sale, or sell a snowmobile that is manufactured after May 7, 1994, if the width of the snowmobile exceeds 48 inches.

I'm not talking about engineering the trail. I'm taking about signing a trail.
The margin of error is probably a little less then two semis passing each other at 110 mph.

 

[polarisrider1]

If Polarisrider and Whitedust are missing corners because signs have been removed then this is a bad situation. Any transition one way or the other should be gradual.

I did not miss a corner. I seen two spots were others did. I never thought the stop ahead signs would be gone too. The missing stop ahead signs are on the trail that runs from Jackies Place to K&K corners. Also in the area of Club 37. The curve arrow before the arrow leading off Astor Rd. By the Peacock cemmetary towards Club 37 is a 90 degree turn with tight trees, comming the other way from Club37 the stop ahead sign is gone. This is a very straight narrow trail that ends into a "T" which is a car traveled road also. Not good.

 

[whitedust]

I did not miss a corner. I seen two spots were others did. I never thought the stop ahead signs would be gone too. The missing stop ahead signs are on the trail that runs from Jackies Place to K&K corners. Also in the area of Club 37. The curve arrow before the arrow leading off Astor Rd. By the Peacock cemmetary towards Club 37 is a 90 degree turn with tight trees, comming the other way from Club37 the stop ahead sign is gone. This is a very straight narrow trail that ends into a "T" which is a car traveled road also. Not good.

Sounds lke an outstanding area for Tree Art.

 

[mride460]

Yes I have !!!

Its not always on a marked trail, and after reading Polarisrider1's post about riding Monday. He noticed less signs from last year and more missed corners. Heck he almost missed a stop sign himself .
All my point was, is if the signs are coming down we need to get the word out.
So what MATTERS is they were there last year and now there not. That could mean more injuries !

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for getting the word out.
Will it change anything? Time will tell..
I would guess there may be a small spike in accidents over the first year or two but those numbers will most likely fall back to the current average that has been seen over the past few years...

 

[Marty]

Will spray paint work when its really cold out? I think it does. Construction orange Tree Art, sounds good, maybe keep somebody from balling one up.

 

[doospunk]

Sounds lke an outstanding area for Tree Art.

Or to break out the Stihl, and drop a few art trees across the trail for speed bumps!

 

[G]

First, you wouldn't believe the stuff I signed with enurmous liability.

Second, I never said there was a law about groomer widths. I stated how wide they typically are.

Third, Wisconsin State Law
Chapter 350
350.09 Headlamps, tail lamps, and brakes, etc.
(8m) No person may operate, offer for sale, or sell a snowmobile that is manufactured after May 7, 1994, if the width of the snowmobile exceeds 48 inches.

I'm not talking about engineering the trail. I'm taking about signing a trail.
The margin of error is probably a little less then two semis passing each other at 110 mph.

For starts I am not an engineer and have no idea what enurmous liabiltiy is. Is this some Austin Powers joke? Whatever, I am sure a second year law student could still get your house if need be. Secondly Semis typically travel on roads and not snowmobile trails. Roads have shoulders and get to be about 25 feet wide. Except in Bangladesh, maybe. In the US a blind woman with a stick could easily pilot a semi down any typical interstate. There are no similarities to snowmobiles here at all. Unless she is also texting.

 

[whitedust]

Will spray paint work when its really cold out? I think it does. Construction orange Tree Art, sounds good, maybe keep somebody from balling one up.

Saw bunch of trees spray painted with blue stripes along 107 today thought might mean cut me to loggers but not sure?

 

[united]

No Stop Ahead signs now? That does not seem to make any sense. Why even have Stop signs? Dave B, we really need to see that letter.

 

[whitedust]

No Stop Ahead signs now? That does not seem to make any sense. Why even have Stop signs? Dave B, we really need to see that letter.

Yep that is scary on Trail 2 east out of Watersmeet going to Iron River always looking for stop ahead signs on that freeway thru the pines. Stop ahead signs still there today & would never ever remove those that would be deadly.

 

[LoveMyDobe]

Yep a lot more curve signs in WI but trails are mostly twistys.

Yep times 2

 

[Lorali779]

as long as manufacturers keep making faster sleds & bars keep serving ~do we really expect thunderheads to slow down?