Michigan removing turn ahead signs

[whitedust]

Hey Skip how you doing Bud??.... Long time since you posted on JD. Sorry but I don't agree with your statement.....
"We have a lot of snowmobilers that use all the signing to simply go faster than they should."

How did the comittee come to that conclusion? Did they ask riders that question that blew corners??? ......& they all said "Yep just wicked it up because I follow signs"! The sign made me do it"! "Lose the signs & I'll slow down & be a good boy or girl".

I ride UP trails all the time & I ride fast when I can or just want to. Do I look for curve signs? You bet I do as I do set up & slow down for turns. Do I want Ricky Racer to see that sign before he whacks me head on you bet. At least with the sign I have a chance he will hold his line thru the corner. No sign to slow him down at a curve & I have no chance at the apex that he holds his line. To me the curve sign is telling me to slow down not speed up! The logic of ok go faster because I see a curve sign just does not compute in my brain. Sorry I just don't agree with removing curve signs & riders will slow down. Take curve signs down & there will be blood. I don't & won't blame you for anything as I appreciate all you do for ATVs & Snowmobiles. What I will do is try & change your mind so you can feed back & say "hey I got some additional info to discuss on this matter that I didn't have before". Somtimes a 1 beer decision is better than a 6 beer decision & sounds to me like the whole case went down at this meeting.lol You know my email or PM me here, call me or we can continue the discussion on this thread so you can gather more opinions. To me there are a lot more riders that want curve signage for saftey reasons not to ride faster but safer. Again good to hear from you again on JD.

 

[john w]

Ok, your flying down a designated trail, you have no idea if it goes straight or turns. You have a little sign in front of you which means the trail is turning to the right and than left followed by another sign that says STOP. I have no idea why any fellow sledder would want to remove these signs. Just my 2 cents, although i have been wrong many times before !! Peace !!!!!

 

[booondocker]

I understand the logic of what the dnr is trying to accomplish here, but its ridicilious. does this mean we take away sharp curve signs on roads? not all people drive out of their abilities. its nice to have a sign to make you aware of a 90 degree turn coming up whether your dong 90 mph or 20. its safer! i always look at signs just to know what to expect, thats what we were taught in snowmobile safety school as teenagers.

as far as the boondocking comparisons they don't make sense, your not boondocking at 80 mph down a trail that could possibly turn left or right in a blink of an eye.
boondocking your normally doing 20-30-40 mph per hour in an open field or thru thick woods where you can't really even get you speed up to kill yourself.

it will be interesting to see how many riders kill themselves on unmarked corners if this law come to fruition, something tells me the numbers will be significantly higher.

I was about to add my two cents but this post pretty much sums it up.

Signs do far more than tell you what's going on. While I spend most of my time off trail, I often have to use the system to get to my areas off trail.

Who hasn't had someone scream by you after coming around another curve with their eyes so wide open that you can see the whites.....as in "gosh....there really is someone else on the trail..."

Signs let you be MORE defensive in your rides, because curve signs warns you to be looking OFF in one direction or another to see if anyone else is coming he!! bent for election in the opposite direction.

I agree that boondocking is not a fair comparison.

I would add that today's powerful sleds build speed in an amazingly short period of time and signs can give you the prep time to get slowed down....

While in theory, removing the signs would sound like it might be a good idea, in practice you can expect that the accidents will most definitely go up. This will then be attributed to speed and alcohol and the very next step will be speed limits which other states are already imposing.

In an ideal world, everyone would simply go to their abilities and stay there. But instead of removing aids to help everyone stay safe and be alert, we take a giant step backward and take them away.

If we used the same analogy as the DNR, we would use these same process on the highways and freeways, in principle to say, "well stupid, don't drive beyond your means...but fog, snow, rain, dark nights, stopped traffic, animals all make the unexpected event happen.

And frankly those guys that drink and ride who can use all the help they can get to get home, will surely screw the pooch on this process, because they will die in numbers...which I am not totally apposed to because well, Darwin said it best...survival of the fittest. Unfortunately the innocent will pay the price on this too because the fools will take someone doing everything right and snuff them out at the same time they are departing the trail.

Removing speed limit signs...okay, but curve signs and crossings is just insane and totally flawed thinking.

 

[skipschulz]

Pete, good to hear from you. Sorry I haven't been on JD for a long time, as I've been working on a lot of Mi-TRALE and Snowmobile Issues. Plus, sorry to say, but I only go to the computer to do work, and seldom go on any websites. I had a good friend that called me today to tell me about this thread, as she knew I was appointed to this Special DNR Committee a couple years ago.
I don't know of anybody else that was on that committee that is on this website, as right now I sure wish another committee member would step in.
The signing issue was debated in length, but what was so surprising to me was that it was pushed by those specifically representing Snowmobiling. I was appointed more as an ORV Rep, however I stated at all the meetings that while I feel our State has to have a bigger focus on ORV's, I snowmobile more then I ride my ORV. I only ride my ORV to work on trails.
However the Snowmobile Reps made a lot of good points.
1) How many signs do we need on the trail? Do we put up a sign for every corner, every hill? Realistically this is impossible. So what happens if we don't have a sign on one curve that maybe should have one, and have a sign on another where it is obvious that it is a curve.
2) If signs is the determining factor on safety, then tell me why we have so many fatalities on our highways...even with Seat Belt Laws.
3) Is it not safe to always wear a helmet when driving your Motorcycle? Then why does Wisconsin not require Helmets?
4) Why doesn't Wyoming, Montana, and Idaho, use all the signing that Michigan has, especially when the terrain that the trails in those states have a lot more curves, hills, etc?
5) If signing is the determining factor on a snowmobile trail, then why is that the Snowmobile Trail Signs in Wisconsin are so much smaller then those in Michigan. Would it not be easier to see an 18" sign, then a 8" sign?

When it comes right down to it, signs don't prevent accidents, SAFE Drivers prevent accidents.
If Safety is the reason for having signs for every corner, every hill, etc, would a Speed Limit not also make the trails safer? I don't feel we need a Speed Limit, I simply feel we need to promote the scenery, the places, the people you ride with, as the reason's to ride. Not how fast you can go from Point A to Point B.
Sorry Pete to disagree with you, however I want to thank you for being such a good friend and a POSITIVE influence on our sport.

 

[fatdaddy]

WOW, in a time when nobody has any money we still manage to find funds to take down signs, with the intent to save lives and control people. What about all the snowmobile hand outs that show the signs, will our instructors have to say " in this state we only use these 3, and if you cross the river you will have to understand these 6" and out west they really don't use them. While watching boarder wars tonight they said the US has been fighting to keep control of pot for 70 years with no success. Duh, don't you think after all this time you think you can control what people are going to do, quite wasting money just because someone thinks they have figured out how to slow down a few people. A few people will drink and drive, they will cross thin ice, they will go on private property, they will put loud pipes and what ever else we snowmobilers do. Spend the money on the majority and not the minority, dumb asses will always be in every facet of our lives, quit trying to save them.

 

[mjkaliszak]

That rumor is about as intelligent as saying we will narrow the trails and make more blind corners to slow you down.

It was meant to bring about a positive discussion ! And it was news to me, that's why I opened another thread up.
Happy & Safe New Years to everyone.... regardless of their position or beliefs.
I still think that with every factor considered... signs especially at the sharp turns or changed trail direction areas are worth having.

Think Snow .... Be safe, ride for life.

 

[Marty]

Its funny how we can disagree on something we love so much. Me, I don't want to see signage go away, would it make the trails safer, maybe, after enough people got hurt, or worse, everyone would be afraid to go fast. I will give it up if I have to ride behind a bunch of overcareful riders worried about when the next corner or blind drop off comes up. Kinda like the drive into work every morning. Yes the curvy trail signs when you are unzipping your coat are not needed but those 90 degree turn signs in the middle of a road that goes to the horizon are pretty handy. We have road signs for a reason, some of the motorist's need them.

Any kind of warning is better than nothing, there are so many distractions, just the scenery, riding through a snow covered forest, maybe us expert riders don't need no stinkin signs, but I for sure want trail signs for my family and friends.

 

[russholio]

Mrs. Russholio here: I may be crazy... or just not paying enough attention- but I don't recall ever seeing anything written in the MSA magazine or a letter mailed out asking for the input of its members in regards to this issue. As a member of MSA, I would hope that they would value our input enough to at least ask what we thought since they do represent us. MSA asked the members input regarding increases in trail permits as well as the Huron Manistee National Forest issue so why not ask for our input about this??

I can not wrap my mind around the concept that removing signage will actually make it safer for all riders. I am a cautious rider and while I don't totally rely on the signs that are on the trail, I do like having the 90* turns identified ahead of time so I am aware of them. I agree with Marty - some riders don't need the signage... but there are those who appreciate having some.

Skip- I totally understand your frustration that many clubs neglected to respond to your calls and communication with them in regards to this issue. I coordinate people for a large event held in the Metro Detroit area over Memorial Day weekend. The event people hold a meeting in the spring to make all clubs involved aware of any and all changes to the event and specifically ask the club contact person to take the information back to the members of their club... and yet when it comes to the actual event over Memorial Day, I am left to field questions and handle issues which should have already been covered before they arrive at the event. Many either don't pass the information on or if they do, the club members don't read it.

I value my life and don't want it snuffed out by some idiot who figures that no signage means a free for all.

:-( Lorna

 

[whitedust]

Skip Hopefully you can call Committee members & have them read in & join in the JD discussion.
1) Skip...How many signs do we need on the trail? Do we put up a sign for every corner, every hill? Realistically this is impossible. So what happens if we don't have a sign on one curve that maybe should have one, and have a sign on another where it is obvious that it is a curve.
1) Pete...No one saying we want signs at every curve or hill but if it appears dangerous "Yes" by all means have a sign in both directions to warn the rider of the hazard so speed & trail line position adjustments can be made on the fly.

2) Skip...If signs is the determining factor on safety, then tell me why we have so many fatalities on our highways...even with Seat Belt Laws.
2) Pete... More drivers, more cars on roads & too many people on cell phones that don't see any signs. Also an aging USA population losing abilities to react. The Boomers are getting over the hill & I'm 1 know this 1st hand. I pay more attention to signs now that I'm older & need all the help I can get.

3)Skip ... Is it not safe to always wear a helmet when driving your Motorcycle? Then why does Wisconsin not require Helmets?
3) Pete...I like wind in my hair ...bugs on my teeth not so much.. lol ...but yes helmet on motorcycles much safer than no helmet.

4) Skip... Why doesn't Wyoming, Montana, and Idaho, use all the signing that Michigan has, especially when the terrain that the trails in those states have a lot more curves, hills, etc?
4) Pete... I don't ride out west but I'll take a shot at #4. UPMI draws from entire midwest so more traffic on trails that need signage to ride in a safe fashion to direct & manage traffic flow. Could be Wyoming, Montana, and Idaho don't have budgets or resources to sign trails. Really should ask riders in those states for their opinion as I'm somewhat of fish out of water in those states. But I do know they call it the wild west for a reason & are independent minded people....don't want anybody telling them what to do or not do.

5)Skip... If signing is the determining factor on a snowmobile trail, then why is that the Snowmobile Trail Signs in Wisconsin are so much smaller then those in Michigan. Would it not be easier to see an 18" sign, then a 8" sign?
5)Pete ... Actually I think northern WI Vilas & Forest do an outstanding job of signage even better than UPMI. WI full of Twistys thus more curve signs. Smaller yes but by far more numerous & accurate than UPMI.

I'm not sure what Motorcycle helmet laws & auto fatalities have to do with the thoughts of the committee regarding MI snowmobile curve signage but thanks for sharing their discussion. I don't want to be disrespectful but sounds like some of the committee members need to get on the seat of their snowmobiles more often & log some miles on a weekend & see what the real world is like not base decisions on stats. from other states that have no bearing on the trail behavior in MI. I know meeting topics can wander & lack focus & main reasons I dislike meetings too much off topic crap fogs the main issue & some people just talk to hear themselves talk.

Again thanks for all that you do & representing us to the best of your abilities. Call me to help in cases like this as I would be happy to help you. I'll even tuck my pony tail in my shirt collar, slick my hair back & wear my best jeans & a matching denim shirt so I can be the best dressed idiot in the room.lol

 

[polarisrider1]

I truely hope this was not an MSA decision. I never heard more than a sarcastic remark of doing this, that is how it came about as a rumor to me. Trying to use mind games to slow the Ricky racer down will not work, this ida if true will kill more than it saves. I will be the first to say, I told you so. We plan to put 98%a at risk to make a point to the 2%????? Yes Ricky and clan do use the signs to set up the next turn (I did back in the day) and guess what I and my Ricky racer buds are all beyond that and still alive and our kids still have fathers. I do not believe that what I did was right but the signs kept me and oncoming traffic alive. Off trail riding is not even comparable to trail riding. I do miss the high speed trail riding, but living isn't bad either. I just hope MSA doesn't think that mind games will slow down the hardcores, it won't.

 

[whitedust]

I truely hope this was not an MSA decision. I never heard more than a sarcastic remark of doing this, that is how it came about as a rumor to me. Trying to use mind games to slow the Ricky racer down will not work, this ida if true will kill more than it saves. I will be the first to say, I told you so. We plan to put 98%a at risk to make a point to the 2%????? Yes Ricky and clan do use the signs to set up the next turn (I did back in the day) and guess what I and my Ricky racer buds are all beyond that and still alive and our kids still have fathers. I do not believe that what I did was right but the signs kept me and oncoming traffic alive. Off trail riding is not even comparable to trail riding. I do miss the high speed trail riding, but living isn't bad either. I just hope MSA doesn't think that mind games will slow down the hardcores, it won't.

And AMEM to that X2222222222222!!!!!!!!!!!!
whitedust

 

[harski]

I'm not a joe rocket rider but I do ride at a steady pace. I can just vision going to deep into a curve cuz of no signage and while at the same time "ricky rocket", or an inexperienced rider for that matter, coming the other way has to do the same. I don't think the outcome would be good for either of us. I know it's being said to slow down and ride within your ability but, then you have to ask the question why do we need the high performance technology that the sled manufacturers are putting out? Are the trails not the place for it? IF not then where? Sounds to me other restrictions will come down the pipeline shortly after such as speed limit day/night. Trail riding will not be the same

Harski

 

[lesledhead]

Viewpoint A (with sign):

"It's a clear day with good visibility on this section of trail, so I'm gonna go 80mph on this stretch, because I know from riding snowmobile trails that there'll be a sign telling me to slow down if there's a curve. Then, when I do see a "curve ahead" sign I'll grab the brake for just a twitch to see how much of a curve it is and make a last second decision from there: Do I slow down more or rip through the corner at speed? I hope there's no ice or the corners not already blown out. How sharp of a curve is it? I know the sign won't tell me this, but it did tell me to slow down. After the corner, I grab the throttle and again get up to speed, maybe 70, maybe 80, maybe more, maybe less. I can do it because just like always, there will be a sign telling me when there's a curve ahead. Keep that speed up. Up until the last possible moment, then I grab the brake for just a twitch to see how much of a curve it is and make a last second decision from there..."

Viewpoint B(without sign):

"It's a clear day with good visibility on this section of trail, so I'm gonna go 80mph on this stretch, which I do until I can't really read the trail ahead, so I back off the throttle to about 60, then 40, then read the trail and grab the brake when I see the arrow at the corner, pulling through the corner at about 40. Then coming out of the corner I grab the throttle to get up to speed again. Maybe 70mph, maybe 80, maybe more, maybe less. I'm watching the terrain to understand what's ahead. After a bit I can't see far enough ahead to understand trail, so I back off the throttle again, but even more this time, I don't know what's coming. Whoa, another corner, left this time. Grab the brake and pull through corner..."

Viewpoint C (WITH sign):

"It's a clear day with good visibility on this section of trail, so I'm gonna go 80mph on this stretch, because I know from riding snowmobile trails that there'll be a sign telling me to slow down if there's a curve. Then, when I do see a "curve ahead" sign I'll grab the brake for just a twitch to see how much of a curve it is and make a last second decision from there: OH $H!T!! SHARP CURVE! Goodbye corner, hello tree."


Respectfully, do not compare road or highway signage to trail signage. There is no comparison. Roads have speed limits, trails don't. Roads have thousands of cars per hour. Trails don't. Roads are subject to the National Highway Transportation Safety Administration or local Department of Transportation guidelines. Trail aren't.

As I mentioned before, the ONLY thing that needs attention is a campaign to warn people about this change.

 

[polarisrider1]

I had the most fun as a young adult on a 440 Scorpion with barely groomed trails and used skids for bridges. Then the whole program became commercialized. Sleds got bigger, badder and trails became flat fast race tracks to the weekend warriors, deaths went up, the snowmobile Gods decided they went to far. Now they want to back things up a bit. Guess what my sled now has 150hp not the 18-40hp when the trail evolution began. DO you really think we will slow down?????? NOT. This whole idea is like this droid phone, it trys to fill in the blanks for me with what it thinks is the best word to use. Mind games, period.

 

[polarisrider1]

And AMEM to that X2222222222222!!!!!!!!!!!!
whitedust

I am really starting to like you!

 

[whitedust]

I am really starting to like you!

Me too takes time I guess.

 

[polarisrider1]

Me too takes time I guess.

Stranger thing have happened on JDee. lol

 

[windingtrailgal]

Well, I'm glad this thread got started here instead of in response to the question about what happened to the rider on trail 3.

Why is it always assumed that snowmobilers are idiots? I use the curve signs along with all the other knowledge I have. Because it's what I'm more familiar with - There are some trails in the Northwoods of WI that I've ridden enough to know what's coming up. There are many other trails in the Northwoods I can't say that about and I utilize the signs for my own safety. I'm not some ricky racer but I like to know what's coming up so I can keep a steady pace.

The UP doesn't have nearly the signage that the Northwoods of WI trails do. I've never complained about this just something that I've noted. There have been signs showing a curve when there's actually a 90 - that always makes for a good time. Again, not complaining...it's just the signs help me made a better informed decision about how I'm gonna ride the trail.

There is nothing logical to indicate that removing the signs will slow riders down. It's a safety issue plain and simple. Although I know there are going to be idiots on the trail - just like everywhere else in life - signs or no signs aren't going to change them. What the signs DO do is help responsible riders make good decisions. I think MOST of the riders out there are responsible. Am I gonna BLAME someone if there's not proper signage and I hit a tree? NO. Are there others out there that might? Sure. How can that argument be made and come to a logical conclusion?

Thanks, Skip, for weighing in. I know how much hard work you do for the Mi trale system - for ATV's and snowmobiles. I appreciate the info you put forth. I also appreciate Whitedust going point by counter point.

I sure didn't think that there could be any argument made AGAINST signs...

 

[gogebictodd]

Removing turn signs is crazy. They have saved me from going into the woods more than ounce. I was not at all speeding either. Many times being partially snowblided by the sun puts your focus straightforward &then seeing the curve sign is a potential. Accident. Preventer ← T

 

[mvedepo]

I'm not a joe rocket rider but I do ride at a steady pace. I can just vision going to deep into a curve cuz of no signage and while at the same time "ricky rocket", or an inexperienced rider for that matter, coming the other way has to do the same. I don't think the outcome would be good for either of us. I know it's being said to slow down and ride within your ability but, then you have to ask the question why do we need the high performance technology that the sled manufacturers are putting out? Are the trails not the place for it? IF not then where? Sounds to me other restrictions will come down the pipeline shortly after such as speed limit day/night. Trail riding will not be the same

Harski

I agree. Speed limits will KILL riding. I avoid Marquette county here in WI because they have 24hr 55 mph open field/35 mph woods speed limit. Going through there is BRUTAL.