harski
Member
Luckilly this sign thing is just in the UP but it could easily happen here too. I don't mind our 55mph at night rule but that could be another topic to debate.
Harski
Michigan removing turn ahead signs
- Thread starter mjkaliszak
- Start date
Luckilly this sign thing is just in the UP but it could easily happen here too. I don't mind our 55mph at night rule but that could be another topic to debate.
Harski
I have read this thread over a few times and would have to say I think this is one of the best threads to be discussed on this site in a long time..I held off responding to this thread at first because at first it sounded insane to me..and quite frankly I was a little angry at first so knew I shouldn’t post something “stupid” so hopefully I don’t come across as stupid but here goes..And after reading this at least 10 times I totally see both sides of the agreement but cannot help but put my two cents in so bear with me please..
First I do not agree with any comparison to roads at all…roads are a whole different ball game ..Roads are set up for safety…with enough room for two…three..or four vehicles to have the room to navigate safely around a corner…road have yellow and white lines…roads have structures and lots of time and money in construction into them to know a “safe” speed that they can be navigated…and more so roads don’t change from hour to hour as to how a vehicle responds to the terrain…I also would have to say I do not believe that I have ever been on a road ever that had been at speed (45…55…65…or even 70) that will come up to a 90 degree corner or “s” turns that did not give me some kind of warning with a sign…
I understand the thoughts behind this process and maybe removing signs will save a lot of money and am all for saving money…and it may make me ride a little slower…but the removing of signs is not going to make Ricky Rocket ride slower…just like having signs there will not make him ride slower…but with signs at least I know he is coming…because I always…and I mean always go into every corner, especially blind ones with the anticipation that Ricky Rocket is coming around towards me..
But maybe instead of removing signs, replace them….we already have orange signs marking the tail…maybe where turns or curves come up replace the small orange signs with a little bigger diamonds of a different color…maybe a blue triangle will tell me…”hey a curve is coming up”…and a yellow one will tell me…”hey a stop sign is coming up”…or something of that sort…
As far as the MSA in considered I totally appreciate all that you have done for me..I have been riding sleds since the 70’s and have followed and been a member of the MSA for a long time also but would have to say I am disappointed that they “dropped the ball” on asking for member input on this one..at least as far as I have seen I haven’t seen a question of that sort being asked…I do not appreciate not being asked for input on a topic that I feel (and can see from post that a lot of people feel the same) as important as this..Not only am I upset that MSA didn’t ask for my opinion on this but I am more so upset that they are not (or at least I am not seeing it) publishing it in big type in there publications to let us know this is what we as snowmobilers need to be aware of so that we can plan and adjust our riding style!!!! ..Right or wrong signage is a part of the trail system..and if it is going to be removed or at least a good majority of it they as much effort should be put forth to promote that as ZERO TOLERANCE in my opinion. And if it has been in publications that I have missed I am sorry for that but do not feel that I missed it..
I am the one who always leads the pack…I always have..don’t always like the “responsibility” it brings but do it cuz someone has got to do it..I appreciate signs..not for my riding style even though it is nice to know a corner is coming up..but more so it lets me know..be on guard Johnny Rocket is coming and the wife and kids are behind me..…but with that said have to totally agree with the simple statement made on here that the days of the 20 hp and 55 mph sleds that took a while to get there are long gone…as long as they make sleds that have as much hp as most bikes and some cars and can get to high speed much faster than any car out there the industry, and advertisements, and t.v. is not PROMOTEING a day of riding and looking at the sights…
Also with this said where a lot of riding is done up north is done on trails that have been the same for years…if not since day one…down on the south side of the state trails change from year to year…and in some cases midyear and signage lets it be known that the curve that has been here for 5 years now don’t go left…it goes right….
The comparison of on and off trail riding I get also but do not feel that they are two of the same…the whole Idea of off trail is “independence” and get away from the crowd…”set my own trail”…I do not feel that riding off trail that during that day of riding that the thought of “who is coming around the corner” comes in to play as much as…how can I strike that line…if everyone who trail rides today is all of a sudden on the “boondocken” trail with you tomorrow your thought process about how I am going to proceed up this hill would change.. I think if your concern shifted from how am I gunna get around that tree to how many riders are on the other side of that tree that I can’t see….I understand where the comparison comes into play as to signage and lack of it in boondocken but at the same time 6 hours of trail riding/ 6 hours of boondocken…how many sleds you gunna pass???
Maybe we should save the money on grooming…that would surely slow traffic down way more than any sign would…I mean heck the suspension on these machines can really absorb those bumps pretty good now cant they???..It has been pointed out before and has some viability to it…but wait maybe if we stop grooming then less sleds will come…that would make it safer also wouldn’t it???
Again sorry for the long post but felt that I needed to say it..
Doug
First I do not agree with any comparison to roads at all…roads are a whole different ball game ..Roads are set up for safety…with enough room for two…three..or four vehicles to have the room to navigate safely around a corner…road have yellow and white lines…roads have structures and lots of time and money in construction into them to know a “safe” speed that they can be navigated…and more so roads don’t change from hour to hour as to how a vehicle responds to the terrain…I also would have to say I do not believe that I have ever been on a road ever that had been at speed (45…55…65…or even 70) that will come up to a 90 degree corner or “s” turns that did not give me some kind of warning with a sign…
I understand the thoughts behind this process and maybe removing signs will save a lot of money and am all for saving money…and it may make me ride a little slower…but the removing of signs is not going to make Ricky Rocket ride slower…just like having signs there will not make him ride slower…but with signs at least I know he is coming…because I always…and I mean always go into every corner, especially blind ones with the anticipation that Ricky Rocket is coming around towards me..
But maybe instead of removing signs, replace them….we already have orange signs marking the tail…maybe where turns or curves come up replace the small orange signs with a little bigger diamonds of a different color…maybe a blue triangle will tell me…”hey a curve is coming up”…and a yellow one will tell me…”hey a stop sign is coming up”…or something of that sort…
As far as the MSA in considered I totally appreciate all that you have done for me..I have been riding sleds since the 70’s and have followed and been a member of the MSA for a long time also but would have to say I am disappointed that they “dropped the ball” on asking for member input on this one..at least as far as I have seen I haven’t seen a question of that sort being asked…I do not appreciate not being asked for input on a topic that I feel (and can see from post that a lot of people feel the same) as important as this..Not only am I upset that MSA didn’t ask for my opinion on this but I am more so upset that they are not (or at least I am not seeing it) publishing it in big type in there publications to let us know this is what we as snowmobilers need to be aware of so that we can plan and adjust our riding style!!!! ..Right or wrong signage is a part of the trail system..and if it is going to be removed or at least a good majority of it they as much effort should be put forth to promote that as ZERO TOLERANCE in my opinion. And if it has been in publications that I have missed I am sorry for that but do not feel that I missed it..
I am the one who always leads the pack…I always have..don’t always like the “responsibility” it brings but do it cuz someone has got to do it..I appreciate signs..not for my riding style even though it is nice to know a corner is coming up..but more so it lets me know..be on guard Johnny Rocket is coming and the wife and kids are behind me..…but with that said have to totally agree with the simple statement made on here that the days of the 20 hp and 55 mph sleds that took a while to get there are long gone…as long as they make sleds that have as much hp as most bikes and some cars and can get to high speed much faster than any car out there the industry, and advertisements, and t.v. is not PROMOTEING a day of riding and looking at the sights…
Also with this said where a lot of riding is done up north is done on trails that have been the same for years…if not since day one…down on the south side of the state trails change from year to year…and in some cases midyear and signage lets it be known that the curve that has been here for 5 years now don’t go left…it goes right….
The comparison of on and off trail riding I get also but do not feel that they are two of the same…the whole Idea of off trail is “independence” and get away from the crowd…”set my own trail”…I do not feel that riding off trail that during that day of riding that the thought of “who is coming around the corner” comes in to play as much as…how can I strike that line…if everyone who trail rides today is all of a sudden on the “boondocken” trail with you tomorrow your thought process about how I am going to proceed up this hill would change.. I think if your concern shifted from how am I gunna get around that tree to how many riders are on the other side of that tree that I can’t see….I understand where the comparison comes into play as to signage and lack of it in boondocken but at the same time 6 hours of trail riding/ 6 hours of boondocken…how many sleds you gunna pass???
Maybe we should save the money on grooming…that would surely slow traffic down way more than any sign would…I mean heck the suspension on these machines can really absorb those bumps pretty good now cant they???..It has been pointed out before and has some viability to it…but wait maybe if we stop grooming then less sleds will come…that would make it safer also wouldn’t it???
Again sorry for the long post but felt that I needed to say it..
Doug
polarisrider1
New member
I am glad to see another long time MSA member with the same view as mine. Well said Doug.
booondocker
New member
Imagine a snow squall that hits as you are making your way home. Would a sign on that familiar curve be of help or would no sign be more useful?
Imagine a night ride with a steep hill with curve at the top where your headlights don't hit until your sled angle drops down enough to prevent the shadows from consuming it?
Imagine your 19 year old daughter gets lost and is making her way back on a trail she isn't all that familiar with or it has been a year since the last family trip?
There are a hundred more scenario's like these above.
Would any of these situations make you want signs or do you really think taking the signs off would be beneficial?
Remember there are lots of sledders in the mid west, but there are tens of thousands who do NOT sled at all, and they will be judging...as they always do, based upon the numbers of deaths and injuries that might occur IF this idea of removing signs happens and they jump up.
How many more deaths will occur? Will these none sledders lay the blame squarely at the sign removal, or speed and carelessness? What would be the consequences of a sudden surge in deaths and injuries?
I know the answer to these rhetorical questions...providing food for thought may bring about some other thought provocation.
I know when I am driving roads in a familiar place, I don't need signage much...because I know the terrain and where I am at...unless it is foggy, rainy, snowy or other crazy condition. Does it stop me from venturing out? Maybe so. Likely I have to go out anyway and at those times those signs give me reassurances and what I need to do at what time.
If I am traveling along in a completely unfamiliar place....I always am thankful for my GPS which has enhanced my signage ten fold. In other words, I appreciate signs because it helps me get from place to place without event. I like non-events....it is way cheaper than trips “with” events. How about you?
Imagine a night ride with a steep hill with curve at the top where your headlights don't hit until your sled angle drops down enough to prevent the shadows from consuming it?
Imagine your 19 year old daughter gets lost and is making her way back on a trail she isn't all that familiar with or it has been a year since the last family trip?
There are a hundred more scenario's like these above.
Would any of these situations make you want signs or do you really think taking the signs off would be beneficial?
Remember there are lots of sledders in the mid west, but there are tens of thousands who do NOT sled at all, and they will be judging...as they always do, based upon the numbers of deaths and injuries that might occur IF this idea of removing signs happens and they jump up.
How many more deaths will occur? Will these none sledders lay the blame squarely at the sign removal, or speed and carelessness? What would be the consequences of a sudden surge in deaths and injuries?
I know the answer to these rhetorical questions...providing food for thought may bring about some other thought provocation.
I know when I am driving roads in a familiar place, I don't need signage much...because I know the terrain and where I am at...unless it is foggy, rainy, snowy or other crazy condition. Does it stop me from venturing out? Maybe so. Likely I have to go out anyway and at those times those signs give me reassurances and what I need to do at what time.
If I am traveling along in a completely unfamiliar place....I always am thankful for my GPS which has enhanced my signage ten fold. In other words, I appreciate signs because it helps me get from place to place without event. I like non-events....it is way cheaper than trips “with” events. How about you?
Ya no turn signs right... bad idea. read crash/death #12
MI accidents in 2010-11 http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dn...1_343301_7.pdf
MI accidents in 2010-11 http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dn...1_343301_7.pdf
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great point on the grooming doug. lets eliminate all grooming and let trails create 10 foot moguls and then we can take all the signs down cuz no one will be able to get above 10 mph. i think the overall feeling from the posts ive read is that this is just a insane idea.
Ok how about Joe Rocket or Jet A$$?
Mride460... Ricky racer or johnny rockets are refered to on here cuz they take the corners to fast and blow the corner and end up on my side of the trail...or worse yet on top of my sled...so just cus u can handle the corners at high rate of speed i am not nor is anyone else on here refering to you...so sorry u r offened by that statment...unless u r ricky rocket that ends up on my sled then i think i can speek for most on this site and say please stay home so u dont kill me, my wife, or god forbid my kids...
skipschulz
New member
Wow, I haven't been on JD for months, now I'm on it for the second night in a row.
From the first meeting the Signing Committee had to the last one, and then to the Conference Call after all the meetings, I stressed that we need Curve Signs for 90 Degree Turns. As hard as this may be to believe, I had a battle with a lot of people on this, but in the end, the Committee agreed that on a 90 Degree Turn, we would keep the "Sharp Curve" Sign.
I do not want anyone to blame the MSA Reps that were on this committee. They were also volunteers, and the reason's they supported taking down a lot of the signs have already been discussed. Like I said in my first post on this thread, the DNR DID ASK those on the committee to get the feelings and opinions from Snowmobile Clubs in the area they represent. I represented the Western UP, and TRIED to get the Clubs to tell me how they felt. I cannot speak for the other Representatives. What I want to stress again, is that this WAS NOT A DNR decision WITHOUT PUBLIC INPUT. The few clubs that attended the meeting that I called agreed that the 90 Degree Turn Sign has to remain erected...and this is what I pushed for. Those clubs stated that we don't need all the Chevrons, 'curvey trail,' 'hill.
You know what was the most talked about sign at the meetings I held...and the committee in the end really didn't know what to do with it...was the Yield Signs at Driveways. Some clubs wanted them, some did not...it turned out where this would be a Club Decision.
I want to thank those that had mature responses, even if we disagree.
Take care everyone, drive safely, enjoy our sport, and have a SAFE 2012.
Skip
From the first meeting the Signing Committee had to the last one, and then to the Conference Call after all the meetings, I stressed that we need Curve Signs for 90 Degree Turns. As hard as this may be to believe, I had a battle with a lot of people on this, but in the end, the Committee agreed that on a 90 Degree Turn, we would keep the "Sharp Curve" Sign.
I do not want anyone to blame the MSA Reps that were on this committee. They were also volunteers, and the reason's they supported taking down a lot of the signs have already been discussed. Like I said in my first post on this thread, the DNR DID ASK those on the committee to get the feelings and opinions from Snowmobile Clubs in the area they represent. I represented the Western UP, and TRIED to get the Clubs to tell me how they felt. I cannot speak for the other Representatives. What I want to stress again, is that this WAS NOT A DNR decision WITHOUT PUBLIC INPUT. The few clubs that attended the meeting that I called agreed that the 90 Degree Turn Sign has to remain erected...and this is what I pushed for. Those clubs stated that we don't need all the Chevrons, 'curvey trail,' 'hill.
You know what was the most talked about sign at the meetings I held...and the committee in the end really didn't know what to do with it...was the Yield Signs at Driveways. Some clubs wanted them, some did not...it turned out where this would be a Club Decision.
I want to thank those that had mature responses, even if we disagree.
Take care everyone, drive safely, enjoy our sport, and have a SAFE 2012.
Skip
FIVE MAN ELECTRICAL BAND
"Signs"
And the sign said "Long-haired freaky people need not apply"
So I tucked my hair up under my hat and I went in to ask him why
He said "You look like a fine upstanding young man, I think you'll do"
So I took off my hat, I said "Imagine that. Huh! Me workin' for you!"
Whoa-oh-oh
Sign, sign, everywhere a sign
Blockin' out the scenery, breakin' my mind
Do this, don't do that, can't you read the sign?
And the sign said anybody caught trespassin' would be shot on sight
So I jumped on the fence and-a yelled at the house, "Hey! What gives you
the
right?"
"To put up a fence to keep me out or to keep mother nature in"
"If God was here he'd tell you to your face, Man, you're some kinda sinner"
Sign, sign, everywhere a sign
Blockin' out the scenery, breakin' my mind
Do this, don't do that, can't you read the sign?
Now, hey you, mister, can't you read?
You've got to have a shirt and tie to get a seat
You can't even watch, no you can't eat
You ain't supposed to be here
The sign said you got to have a membership card to get inside
Ugh!
And the sign said, "Everybody welcome. Come in, kneel down and pray"
But when they passed around the plate at the end of it all, I didn't have a
penny to pay
So I got me a pen and a paper and I made up my own little sign
I said, "Thank you, Lord, for thinkin' 'bout me. I'm alive and doin' fine."
Wooo!
Sign, sign, everywhere a sign
Blockin' out the scenery, breakin' my mind
Do this, don't do that, can't you read the sign?
Sign, sign, everywhere a sign
Sign
Sign, sign
"Signs"
And the sign said "Long-haired freaky people need not apply"
So I tucked my hair up under my hat and I went in to ask him why
He said "You look like a fine upstanding young man, I think you'll do"
So I took off my hat, I said "Imagine that. Huh! Me workin' for you!"
Whoa-oh-oh
Sign, sign, everywhere a sign
Blockin' out the scenery, breakin' my mind
Do this, don't do that, can't you read the sign?
And the sign said anybody caught trespassin' would be shot on sight
So I jumped on the fence and-a yelled at the house, "Hey! What gives you
the
right?"
"To put up a fence to keep me out or to keep mother nature in"
"If God was here he'd tell you to your face, Man, you're some kinda sinner"
Sign, sign, everywhere a sign
Blockin' out the scenery, breakin' my mind
Do this, don't do that, can't you read the sign?
Now, hey you, mister, can't you read?
You've got to have a shirt and tie to get a seat
You can't even watch, no you can't eat
You ain't supposed to be here
The sign said you got to have a membership card to get inside
Ugh!
And the sign said, "Everybody welcome. Come in, kneel down and pray"
But when they passed around the plate at the end of it all, I didn't have a
penny to pay
So I got me a pen and a paper and I made up my own little sign
I said, "Thank you, Lord, for thinkin' 'bout me. I'm alive and doin' fine."
Wooo!
Sign, sign, everywhere a sign
Blockin' out the scenery, breakin' my mind
Do this, don't do that, can't you read the sign?
Sign, sign, everywhere a sign
Sign
Sign, sign
Skip: Those 90s when you see a straight run out or opening in the woods straight ahead are the most dangerous!!!! "Oh $hitt moments for me". You think the trail appears to go straight then whoops hard left or right then either off the apex line or up the berm & in the pickers not good. I must say studs saved me many times to get the traction to stop but hate when that happens. Anywho whatever we have to adjust & my trail imprint is pretty good so hope for the best. Thanks for all you do Skip. See you soon on the trail & Happy New Year.
Pete
Anywho whatever we have to adjust & my trail imprint is pretty good so hope for the best. Thanks for all you do Skip. See you soon on the trail & Happy New Year.Pete
Skip,
I think a thank you has only been said on here once for what you have done..I would also like to say thank you. I belong and hold an office in a local Antique Tractor club in my area and know what you mean about volunteers. Both how hard it is to get them to do things, and how few there are to choose from. And I know you don’t want blame put on the MSA or the volunteers that were there. But I can’t help but think that somewhere something got missed on this one. As a volunteer it is their responsibility to go back to their “superiors” and report what was going on and discussed. Now I don’t know the whole process that has happened at those meetings or after so I am not presuming to know something I don’t. But I do feel and issue like this should have got published in a mag. Now I haven’t had direct phone contact with my local club but plan on calling both of them at the first of the week just to see if they were contacted and asked for input on this…and if they were I am going to ask them how come this contact was not passed onto the members to discuss. I am not at all trying to blow this out of proportion at all. And as I said before I get both sides of this subject. And again I thank you totally for all that you have done.
But I would have to say that if this is the way this sport is going then it needs to get pushed hard and fast that signs are not going to be as plentiful as before……just like they pushed another great idea called ZERO TOLERANCE….
<o> </o>
Thanks again and I think I am done now.
Doug
I think a thank you has only been said on here once for what you have done..I would also like to say thank you. I belong and hold an office in a local Antique Tractor club in my area and know what you mean about volunteers. Both how hard it is to get them to do things, and how few there are to choose from. And I know you don’t want blame put on the MSA or the volunteers that were there. But I can’t help but think that somewhere something got missed on this one. As a volunteer it is their responsibility to go back to their “superiors” and report what was going on and discussed. Now I don’t know the whole process that has happened at those meetings or after so I am not presuming to know something I don’t. But I do feel and issue like this should have got published in a mag. Now I haven’t had direct phone contact with my local club but plan on calling both of them at the first of the week just to see if they were contacted and asked for input on this…and if they were I am going to ask them how come this contact was not passed onto the members to discuss. I am not at all trying to blow this out of proportion at all. And as I said before I get both sides of this subject. And again I thank you totally for all that you have done.
But I would have to say that if this is the way this sport is going then it needs to get pushed hard and fast that signs are not going to be as plentiful as before……just like they pushed another great idea called ZERO TOLERANCE….
<o
> </o>Thanks again and I think I am done now.
Doug
Yes, I know what and why the terms used on this site are used.. Like I said before, I ride my ride on my side of the trail and the signs are a non issue for me. I trust only me and my ability to get me home safe.
More should do the same... IMO
PS-I was just trying to lighten the mood.. the bloviating gets to me after a while..
Ok how about Joe Rocket or Jet A$$?
Don't know about Joe Rocket, but I've got a red rocket!!
mjkaliszak
New member
Don't know about Joe Rocket, but I've got a red rocket!!
Looks Cool !
HardwaterHoosier
Member
Maybe someone with some history could answer this, Why were the signs added to the trails to begin with?
I'm not going to agree or disagree with either side. These are supposed to be trails, at least thats what everyone calls them. But sometimes they look more like roads.
I'm not going to agree or disagree with either side. These are supposed to be trails, at least thats what everyone calls them. But sometimes they look more like roads.
Everyone wants that paved highway for their sled these days. Why? More speed. What do signs allow you to do? Navigate through the woods at a higher pace.
Holy cow taking down signs to slow people down sounds like a dumb politicans idea to me. Should they do the same on roads with a high percentage of speeders then? There would be all kinds of wrecks.But on trails this would be good. I can't count how many times I have gone into a curve and met a sled coming at me on my side. Do they think this would help this problem I'm sure not probably just make these encounters more frequent. Seems to me one of the biggest problems is new people to our sport who have no saftey instructions at all little lone a few lessons on trai etiquette. Last year in Hancock i watched as a guy on a new Skidoo was looking for his gas fill are you kidding me. Finally I went over and showed him oil fill as well. this I see as a huge problem I could go out today and buy one of cats new 1100 turbo's and off I go with the fastest sled made and maybe I've never even seen a sled before. I think all new sled owners should have to have at least some instructions on how to safely operate a sled before they recieve their registration. Just saying only seems to make sense.