New Prague/LeSueur County Trails

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t660redrocket

New member
Duey660 said:
I Have been grooming the trails around New Prague since the snow drifters got there own groomer, i never got any complaints. It just so happens this year our club bought a new groomer and it was in the shop getting work done to it so we could groom the trails. With thats said redrocket- get a life and join a club!!! Your Pissed Off Groomer Operator
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If I had to give a grade for the New Prague Trails this year it would be a "D" or a "D+". Get out there and groom Duey! This is the best snow we've had in years and that really nice Tucker fricken sits! The club needs a few more guys that are WILLING to go out a couple times a week. Seems to me if Upper Michigan can groom 2 times a day, New Prague could groom 2 or 3 times a week! Many of the neighboring clubs do! This is exactly why I'm a club member in a different state!
 
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Duey660

New member
There is a monthly meeting tonite at union hill bar at 8:00 pm, see ya there. It seems like you think our club has an abundance of money to just throw away on grooming more than 2 times a week, and further more you seem to be the only on bitching about our trails,everyone else says our trail system is the best around.
 
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t660redrocket

New member
Duey660 said:
There is a monthly meeting tonite at union hill bar at 8:00 pm, see ya there. It seems like you think our club has an abundance of money to just throw away on grooming more than 2 times a week, and further more you seem to be the only on bitching about our trails,everyone else says our trail system is the best around.
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Tell me Duey, when is the last time the trails were groomed in New Prague? It hasn't been since before the melt down! We've had snow since and NOTHING!!! Groomer hasn't been out. Why does the Snowdrifters own such a nice groomer that they can't afford to run? Here's what I think from talking to folks......several people have offered to join the club, get trained to and drive the groomer as these people have plenty of spare time on their hands during the day or at night. These people get poo poo'd away because of some sort of pride issue that only a certain couple people can drive it. That sucks! Since grooming can't happen 2 or 3 times a weeks and there are so few miles of New Prague Snodrifter trails the club should sell that damn groomer and contract with a club that will groom! Scott county has been out, Le Sueur County has been out, Bridgewater, What gives? What sense does it make to own a groomer that you can't afford to run?????????????? Why I am buying trail stickers? Why do I go to your fundraiser breakfasts?
 
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ezra

Well-known member
t660redrocket said:
If I had to give a grade for the New Prague Trails this year it would be a "D" or a "D+". Get out there and groom Duey! This is the best snow we've had in years and that really nice Tucker fricken sits! The club needs a few more guys that are WILLING to go out a couple times a week. Seems to me if Upper Michigan can groom 2 times a day, New Prague could groom 2 or 3 times a week! Many of the neighboring clubs do! This is exactly why I'm a club member in a different state!
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dont know what kind of cash they get a yr but in the west metro they have got barely enough cash to groom 1 time a week and when fuel rises you have to pick and chose when you are going to groom.wanna groom they were looking for volunteers to groom next yr in the west metro you got to be Abel to commit 1 shift a week all winter.
 
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t660redrocket

New member
ezra said:
dont know what kind of cash they get a yr but in the west metro they have got barely enough cash to groom 1 time a week and when fuel rises you have to pick and chose when you are going to groom.wanna groom they were looking for volunteers to groom next yr in the west metro you got to be Abel to commit 1 shift a week all winter.
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Clubs should be able to to groom on $3.50 per mile. That should cover fuel, parts and maintenance. For the New Prague Trails there are 32 miles of trails 32 x $3.50 = $112.

$112 per groomed mile. That's not a lot of money. According to the MN Dnr they allocate $4.5 million to the 22,000 miles of trails. That's not even including cash raised by the individual clubs. Where's is the $$$ from the clubs going if they can't afford to operate? Somethings goofy. I suspect that much of the funding goes to operating the clubs themselves rather than getting the funding to the trails where it should belong.

Here's Michigan allocations..... http://www.msasnow.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=60&Itemid=63

Does Minnesota have a distribution tree like this? I've been unabale to find one.
 
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kamikaze_bros

Member
$4,500,000.00 divided by 22,000 miles = $204.54 for each mile of trail.

According to the figures t660redrocket provided the club should have received $6,545.28 in State Grant in Aid money. On a conservative estimate my guess is that it probably costs the club about another $10,000.00 to $12,000.00 above the Grant in Aid money just to break even on the operating, storage and maintenance costs.
 
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t660redrocket

New member
kamikaze_bros said:
$4,500,000.00 divided by 22,000 miles = $204.54 for each mile of trail.

According to the figures t660redrocket provided the club should have received $6,545.28 in State Grant in Aid money. On a conservative estimate my guess is that it probably costs the club about another $10,000.00 to $12,000.00 above the Grant in Aid money just to break even on the operating, storage and maintenance costs.
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Operations/fuel/maintenance should cost under $5000 for the 32 miles they groom IF IF IF IF IF IF IF IF IF IF IF Trails are groomed twice weekly. That's conservative.
 
oldguy

oldguy

Member
MN has a fund distribution chart and it is published the MN DNR web site. The New Prague area grant per mile this year is $282.00 per mile. The Arrowhead of MN is $657.00 per mile. If like you say New Prague has 32 miles of trails, their grant for this year is $9034.00. Insurance for the groomer runs about $1100.00. For 32 miles of trails, liability insurance will be around $950.00 per year.

Not sure how much that Tucker is, but a brand new one around $165.000.00. I do not know what their groomer payment is and how much they paid, but let’s say they only have a $500.00 per month payment, that would be $6000.00 per year. I am not sure what they paid for the drag, new ones cost between $11,000.00 to $15,000.00. Let’s say the drag payment is $100.00 per month or $1200.00 per year

Now we find someone that only charges $100.00 per month to store it. This would be $1200.00 per year. Let’s buy some posts to put our signs on, and other supplies, that would be around $1000.00 per year. I think we need to buy some diesel. The Tucker goes thru 4 to 5 gallons per hour. We’ll groom at 5 miles per. The MN DNR says we have to groom up and back to get our grant money. Now our 32 miles of trail is 64 miles of trail. Please refer to that picture posted before with that nice double ribbon. This would be around 13 hours to get the job done or 52 gallons of fuel @ 3.50 per gallon.;

It’s too late for me to add all of this up, but I think this is a losing battle. I have been the trail coordinator for our club in the north central part of MN for the last 10 years. The numbers I have thrown out there is from our clubs past experience.
 
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kamikaze_bros

Member
t660redrocket said:
Operations/fuel/maintenance should cost under $5000 for the 32 miles they groom IF IF IF IF IF IF IF IF IF IF IF Trails are groomed twice weekly. That's conservative.
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What are you basing your opinion on? First hand experience? It sounds to me like you believe the only cost involved with grooming is related to the fuel. Fuel alone won't get it done. You also need a tractor (Cost? Your guess is as good as mine) a drag, storage, maintenance and service, insurance and operators. I'm just guessing but I'd say they could groom about 4 mile per hour and one entire side of their trail system could be groomed in an 8 hour shift. Now they have to groom the other side which will take another 8 hours. My question to you is, what could you possibly put together that would be able to groom 32 miles of trail that would cost $4,999.99 or less? I ask this because I'm sure I'm not the only person that would be interested to learn your secret.
 
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kamikaze_bros

Member
oldguy said:
MN has a fund distribution chart and it is published the MN DNR web site. The New Prague area grant per mile this year is $282.00 per mile. The Arrowhead of MN is $657.00 per mile. If like you say New Prague has 32 miles of trails, their grant for this year is $9034.00. Insurance for the groomer runs about $1100.00. For 32 miles of trails, liability insurance will be around $950.00 per year.

Not sure how much that Tucker is, but a brand new one around $165.000.00. I do not know what their groomer payment is and how much they paid, but let’s say they only have a $500.00 per month payment, that would be $6000.00 per year. I am not sure what they paid for the drag, new ones cost between $11,000.00 to $15,000.00. Let’s say the drag payment is $100.00 per month or $1200.00 per year

Now we find someone that only charges $100.00 per month to store it. This would be $1200.00 per year. Let’s buy some posts to put our signs on, and other supplies, that would be around $1000.00 per year. I think we need to buy some diesel. The Tucker goes thru 4 to 5 gallons per hour. We’ll groom at 5 miles per. The MN DNR says we have to groom up and back to get our grant money. Now our 32 miles of trail is 64 miles of trail. Please refer to that picture posted before with that nice double ribbon. This would be around 13 hours to get the job done or 52 gallons of fuel @ 3.50 per gallon.;

It’s too late for me to add all of this up, but I think this is a losing battle. I have been the trail coordinator our club in the north central part of MN for the last 10 years. These numbers I have thrown out there is from our clubs past experience.
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Oldguy,

You beat me to it. By the way, based upon your figures which do not include any wages the New Prague club would have $13,450.00 in costs if they groomed the system 10 times. The $13,450.00 figure has $2,000.00 worth of fuel included. I figured they were spending $200.00 on fuel every time they went out.
 
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t660redrocket

New member
I'm getting my expenses based on this http://www.msasnow.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=60&Itemid=63 looking at the groomer cost analysis Which includes fuel, parts, and Maintenence. I used the most expense year that MI had on record for the example.

Look, I'm asking questions and looking for answers. I've been getting some answers from you all which are very helpful. Maybe for the kind of money all the clubs are paying for their groomers and how little many of them are used........................

I don't know what the answer is! A groomer is meant to groom. Not sit. I'd just like to see the trails as nice as they can be. I'm sure the club is doing what they think is best. There's no doubt there's much effort going into it all. I don't know. I just don't know I guess. Does anyone understand where I'm coming from?
 
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bigkevs

Member
kamikaze_bros said:
Oldguy,

You beat me to it. By the way, based upon your figures which do not include any wages the New Prague club would have $13,450.00 in costs if they groomed the system 10 times. The $13,450.00 figure has $2,000.00 worth of fuel included. I figured they were spending $200.00 on fuel every time they went out.
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RED ROCKET-
Just to be clear, There are NO WAGES paid. This is done by volunteers,unlike what peoples opinions are.
Face it,the base is gone.It is March.
Get out and help.
Get off the computer and do your part.
 
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favoritos

favoritos

Well-known member
We rode 600 miles of MN trails last week. Some were groomed and some were not. The one thing that was consistant, there were sleds riding on the groomed trails. There were no sleds riding where they had not groomed. I would think that buisinesses would like the trails groomed. The signage was pretty good in the MN trail system for the trail hazards. I would give a thumbs up just for the amount of work done on the signs.

It has been a long time since we have rode the MN system. We noticed a few things different. We rarely saw a distance indicated when a sign directed toward the next town. It was also very difficult to find a place to eat or sleep without digging out the GPS. The trails go around towns and it is tough to ride streets looking for a place to stay.

The trails by Slayton are impressive. Nice work by that gang. The Stearns County trails were pretty fun to ride with all the variety. The Glacial trail was a bit of a pain to get around though. We had studs and could not ride much of the grade.

It is interesting to ride the two way groomed trails. There are often two trails instead of just one in many areas.

We had been staying away from riding MN for quite a few years. I can honestly say that we will ride more in MN now. There is a lot to see and explore. The worst trail conditions were still better than a busy day up north where the traffic really wreaks havoc.
 
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kamikaze_bros

Member
t660redrocket said:
I'm getting my expenses based on this http://www.msasnow.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=60&Itemid=63 looking at the groomer cost analysis Which includes fuel, parts, and Maintenence. I used the most expense year that MI had on record for the example.
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Well t660redrocket,

I'd recommend that you "actually" read and study the information you reference when forming your opinions in the future and I'd highly recommend that you refrain from expressing you opinion until you really have a clear understanding.

I looked at the source of information you claim to be using to form your opinion. Here are a couple examples I found. The first club The Sno Flyer's of Escanaba are responsible for 17.25 miles of trail and they received $16,250.00 of State Aided Funds. Kinkross Chapter of Kincheloe is responsible for grooming 38 mile, they receive $27,226.80 to groom their system. Doesn't appear to me either one of these club's is surviving on 5K.

I'm sure you're fully aware of all the productive things you have to offer towards improving the issues you're having with this particular trail system. Step up to the plate and start swinging, nobody's going to stop you. Show us what you got.
 
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bigkevs

Member
kamikaze_bros said:
That is true for the vast majority of the club supported grooming however our club has been issuing W2's on our labor (including wages for operating) for as long as I've been a member (mid 80's).[/QUOTE

The Club where I am at is All Volunteer. Nobody gets paid for anything.Matter of fact most of us donate countless hours of time along with use of our personal chainsaws,atv's,trucks,trailers,fuel,etc. I find it a sad thing that those who bad-mouth Clubs for either not grooming when they think the trails should be groomed for them or that they think the Clubs just pocket the GIA money and sit back!!..If they only knew how much work and real money goes into each mile of trail in this state.From the grant money you have the fuel,groomer payments,groomer maintenance,Landowner insurance,sign posts,small equipment maintenance,any building costs(insurance,heat,electricity,taxes,any building ugrades) plus still any Public Relations(Snowmobile Safety Training,membership drives,parades,booths at events)the list goes on.

But to drive by and see the Groomer parked and complain???,,,,So, if I see a County Plow parked I should call the Commissioner and complain? Geez, they must have a road to plow or salt or something?? I pay taxes!!!

My hats off to All that provide snowmobilers a place to ride.Without it we might need to take up a different hobby.
Thank You!
BIG KEV S
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todddnewprague

New member
Went riding last Friday, Feb. 25

Hey, I went riding Friday, late afternoon, into the evening. Met up with some guys in PL. Headed south to the Big Steer, Millersberg, Shieldsville, Kilkenny, Le Center, Heidelberg and back to New Prague. The trails up by Prior Lake showed the most wear and tear. Very nice, though. As we traveled south away from Millersberg, the trails just kept getting better! THEN, when we got to where the New Prague Snowdrifter's start grooming, what did we find? FRESHLY groomed trails! The only feshly groomed trails we rode on that evening. We were the first to ride on the smooth, highway like, trails! This was a Friday evening ride. Did I mention that? You know, if you ride Sunday afternoon, the trails tend to be a little beat up.... Still very rideable but, show signs of heavy use. NP Snowdrifter's don't groom on weekends. I don't know many groomers that do... The trails in our area have been phenomenal all season! I've brought people into the area to ride and they have said the same! T660, you should get involved or maybe just stay off the trails around here..... You are the only one in the entire area complaining about the trail conditions in our area. Have you noticed that?
 
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