Off trail riding on the local news

[Tim in Indiana]

Well stated. I do have a question, out of the younger generation riding, example the 20somethings how many have taken a snowmobile safety class. And not sure once you can drive car do you need snowmobile safety class. Maybe it should be mandatory to take and don’t let the register a sled without having class. That would at least make people listen to the rules?

In wisconsin anyone born after January 1st, 1985 has to take the snowmobile safety course to legally operate.

 

[Tim in Indiana]

Not an insurance guy, so can’t answer that. That would be a question for your insurance person which I’m sure would want to sell you some, maybe a better question call the state where the land is and ask them if are you liable for trespassers on vacant land. It may be able to tie to your homeowners policy?

In my case if the land has no improvements the liability falls under my umbrella policy. There is no way I would not have insurance. Even if the state laws supposedly protect the land owner you still have to defend against lawsuits and lawyers don't work cheap. Your liability policy pays for this defense.

 

[Tim in Indiana]

I have waterfront property insured to max. Never know when some moron will trespass on shoreline. Hasn’t been a problem here very steep shoreline but up north campers from the federal camp grounds made to my house a couple of times wanted a ride back to camp grounds. Lol

Very smart. I have every parcel or place I own in either a trust or LLC, depending on it's purpose. That plus a liability umbrella hopefully will protect me.

 

[whitedust]

In wisconsin anyone born after January 1st, 1985 has to take the snowmobile safety course to legally operate.

How does WI enforcement that? Do dealerships check out on snowmobile sales , rentals, registrations or trail permits??? I’m thinking they don’t I can’t remember anyone asking for DNR certificate number for any of those things.

 

[Tim in Indiana]

Is it really that bad up there? I feel that groups get along pretty dang well here in MN. Never heard anyone say we are shutting this down for sleds but lets open it for skis, etc. Maybe its because there is way more public land here?

It is in the PI, MW, BJ areas. There are way more of the environmentalists owning or living here than sled owners. And they are WAY more organized. Also better funded. Some of the groups are affiliated with much larger, national organizations. They get guidance, legal help and funding at times.

 

[Tim in Indiana]

How does WI enforcement that? Do dealerships check out on snowmobile sales , rentals, registrations or trail permits??? I’m thinking they don’t I can’t remember anyone asking for DNR certificate number for any of those things.

No enforcement by the dealers that I'm aware of. I would think rentals would check if the person renting is under 37. Not sure about trail passes.

The way I see it enforced is the same way they enforce the trail pass or drinking. They set up trail blocks and stop everyone. They look for stickers and stand very close to you asking questions to smell you breath. If you look young enough they ask to see your safety course certificate. I see trail blocks in PI 2-4 times a year. Same in other areas up here.

So it is not likely you'll get pinched but if you do they will impound the sled and fine you.

 

[whitedust]

No enforcement by the dealers that I'm aware of. I would think rentals would check if the person renting is under 37. Not sure about trail passes.

The way I see it enforced is the same way they enforce the trail pass or drinking. They set up trail blocks and stop everyone. They look for stickers and stand very close to you asking questions to smell you breath. If you look young enough they ask to see your safety course certificate. I see trail blocks in PI 2-4 times a year. Same in other areas up here.

So it is not likely you'll get pinched but if you do they will impound the sled and fine you.

Yeah I could see a check on a young person but middle aged Idk?? Who carries a DNR certificate at that age?? Anyone here?

 

[wisco-mb]

Correct. Only time you need to show it is if you're stopped for whatever reason. When I was pulled over for rolling a stop sign 15 years ago, DNR asked for it. I told him I was not certified and was not aware of the law! I was born in July of 1985, and just missed the grandfathered law.
He told me I could not ride any more that day. We towed the sled a couple miles down, and I hopped back on my sled and got out of there. This was in Adams county by the airport.
The DNR can look up your name in the database. No need to carry it. It does make it easier though. I have a photo I saved so I do not carry it.

 

[Tim in Indiana]

Yeah I could see a check on a young person but middle aged Idk?? Who carries a DNR certificate at that age?? Anyone here?

My sons (37 & 34) have their's in their phone. The DNR will email you a copy if you contact them. You can take the course online, I think it costs around $35.

 

[dfattack]

Yeah I could see a check on a young person but middle aged Idk?? Who carries a DNR certificate at that age?? Anyone here?

My son does in his sled. He just asked me last week if he needed to keep it and I told him to put it back in his sled just in case.

 

[ddhanna]

I fully understand Abe's comments. I had the exact thing happen to me. I had a guy trespassing on my land fall 21 feet when the straps on one of his stands broke. He really messed himself up, broken collarbone, femur, some broken ribs and a punctured lung. Nearly died.

We figure he was unconscious at least two hours and when he woke he was able to call a friend. He must of passed out again because he didn't tell his friend where he was. The friend come down my drive and stopped at my house asking if I knew the guy, which I didn't. We hopped in the UTV and went back into the far 40 and I found him about 30 feet off the trail and nearly a mile off the road.

The EMT's used our UTV to haul him out and they airlifted him to a big hospital. I immediately contacted my insurance company informing them that he did not have permission and was trespassing. They still paid him the medical limits on my policy. It was either $25k or $50k which was a drop in the bucket of his total. He could have sued for the balance but didn't. He actually came around a year or so later and thanked me for finding him.

You are responsible for anyone who comes on your property, period.

And in my experience the snowmobile trail lease agreement indemnifies the land hold for a defined trail, not the whole property

Sorry Tim but you are mistaken. Assuming it is Wisconsin, you are generally not responsible if that person is recreating on your property, trail or no trail and trespassing or not trespassing. See my post #134 and Google "WI Berry Picking Law" for details. BTW, there is no lease agreement. It is a land use agreement and does not provide for any indemnification.

 

[Tim in Indiana]

Sorry Tim but you are mistaken. Assuming it is Wisconsin, you are generally not responsible if that person is recreating on your property, trail or no trail and trespassing or not trespassing. See my post #134 and Google "WI Berry Picking Law" for details. BTW, there is no lease agreement. It is a land use agreement and does not provide for any indemnification.

Regarding the private land owners and trails easements you are correct in it not being a lease, it is legally called a
“Recreational agreement"

In my situation (described above) where someone was injured while trespassing I was referring to something that happened in Indiana, not Wisconsin.

I also own land in Wisconsin and that, like all property owned, is covered under my liability umbrella. While I may have the protections offered by Wisconsin it will require lawyers and their costs to work through the system. Liability insurance covers these expenses.

I did Google the "WI Berry Picking Law" and the second result was a law firm advertising the ways and their ability to circumvent the law and get the client compensation.

 

[J.Glenn]

Well stated. I do have a question, out of the younger generation riding, example the 20somethings how many have taken a snowmobile safety class. And not sure once you can drive car do you need snowmobile safety class. Maybe it should be mandatory to take and don’t let the register a sled without having class. That would at least make people listen to the rules?

Does anyone know about the bolded part of Goofy's reply. This is something I've always wondered about. Do you need the safety course once you're 16 and have a valid drivers license?

 

[goofy600]

Does anyone know about the bolded part of Goofy's reply. This is something I've always wondered about. Do you need the safety course once you're 16 and have a valid drivers license?

It was answered in post 141 if you are born after January 1, 1985 you need a safety certificate. I believe for sure a Wisconsin rule would assume similar for Michigan.

 

[bearrassler]

It was answered in post 141 if you are born after January 1, 1985 you need a safety certificate. I believe for sure a Wisconsin rule would assume similar for Michigan.

In Minnesota you need a permit if born after 12-31-1976

 

[old abe]

I’m not getting Abe’s example of someone who trespasses will need to be covered on the landowners insurance?? So are we supposed to put up “enter at your own risk” signs right next to “no trespassing” signs, which would certainly be a mixed message. I have 90 acres up north and I don’t have any insurance on that property. If someone trespasses WITHOUT permission I can’t see how I’m liable for him running into a tree on his ATV. Something isn’t right.

Okay dfattack, this is what my insurance agent exspressed to me yesterday, as I myself wanted to be sure of this for myself. Depending on the state insurance regulations, and law, most homeowners policies will cover your property LISTED on your policy. And even if this property is not your residence, and located elsewhere. However, it will fall under the 'limited liability" clause, with lower limits, and not full liability coverage, as issued to the property requested for full liability insurance on your policy. Again, the property must be at least LISTED on your policy, and its real estate location, for the limited liability to be covered. It can't be held naked, must be listed, even though you are not requesting full liability coverage on the property. Any dwellings, structures, abandoned wells, and such on the property create more risks. Check with your agent to be sure. Liability coverage is not that expensive. Tim has it covered very good, and he's correct on the "Berry picking law", being full of loop holes. IMO depending on the Berry picking law to protect you from being held liable, is pretty much wishful thinking, and would surley cost you much more than having insurance. And no, I don't sell Insurance! Good luck, and protect what's YOURS!

 

[J.Glenn]

It was answered in post 141 if you are born after January 1, 1985 you need a safety certificate. I believe for sure a Wisconsin rule would assume similar for Michigan.

Thanks Goofy (and bear for the MN reference). I just wasn't sure if having a drivers license would supersede needing the safety certificate. I get they are apples to oranges, meaning they are independent of each other, but was just curious that's all. I'm not in this camp either way (born in 1983) and I completed a safety course as well when I was younger.

 

[dfattack]

Okay dfattack, this is what my insurance agent exspressed to me yesterday, as I myself wanted to be sure of this for myself. Depending on the state insurance regulations, and law, most homeowners policies will cover your property LISTED on your policy. And even if this property is not your residence, and located elsewhere. However, it will fall under the 'limited liability" clause, with lower limits, and not full liability coverage, as issued to the property requested for full liability insurance on your policy. Again, the property must be at least LISTED on your policy, and its real estate location, for the limited liability to be covered. It can't be held naked, must be listed, even though you are not requesting full liability coverage on the property. Any dwellings, structures, abandoned wells, and such on the property create more risks. Check with your agent to be sure. Liability coverage is not that expensive. Tim has it covered very good, and he's correct on the "Berry picking law", being full of loop holes. IMO depending on the Berry picking law to protect you from being held liable, is pretty much wishful thinking, and would surley cost you much more than having insurance. And no, I don't sell Insurance! Good luck, and protect what's YOURS!

Ok Abe. I called my agent and she said State Farm does not require additional properties be listed as long as there aren't any structures on them. Maybe some companies require it and maybe some not. Who knows. Interesting topic to say the least.

 

[Rupp Collector]

In Michigan, if the land is truly vacant it's an automatic coverage from your homeowners policy. I have customers that own waterfront property with a dock, no longer vacant and we list it for a nominal charge.

 

[Tim in Indiana]

So after seeing the Minnesota requirements posted above I started wondering what it is in Michigan. Here's the only thing I could find and it came from the Michigan DNR site,

"In Michigan, all snowmobile operators who are 12 to 16 years of age are required to take a Michigan-approved snowmobile safety course and obtain a snowmobile safety certificate."

I read this as if you can avoid being stopped by LE during the 12-16 age you are good to go at 17 and up???

This is very different than WI and MN and does not result in eventually everyone riding having taken the safety course.