Off trail riding on the local news

[old abe]

I get all that guys, I really do, I’m just simply saying, because we leave (harmless) tracks in snow, everybody wants to hang our heads, and I just can’t fathom how we as society got to this point…

I get the handshake agreement, agreed upon the trail ONLY, but common sense tells me, If tens of thousands of snowmobilers ride across a power line trail in one of the most highly populated snowmobiling areas in the state, there’s going to be a handful with googly eyes that lay a few tracks in the power line. If the landowner did not see that potentially happening, he must’ve been born yesterday…

If my neighbor walks around outside 100 times, and 1 time he walked onto my property without causing harm, am I going to throw a fit and call the cops? No. If my neighbor used my driveway to turn around, am I going to put fences up and a gate at the end of my driveway? Again, he’s not causing me any harm so no. The amount of snowmobilers that illegally go where they shouldn’t, is probably less than 1%, but because we are so divisive as a society nowadays, everyone wants to hang them all by their heads…

Okay, if someone goes off trail, onto the Power Line, or any kind of ROW, or just personal property, who ever they are, and gets hurt badly, who's insurance covers the either him, or her? Seems to me the landowner is responsible? I have 3 right-of-ways on my properties, on 2 different farms. My insurance would be liable for any kind of accident, or injury, on those 3 ROW's as it's still my property. So as I have a meeting set up for later today with my insurance agent, and I will check all this out. Insurance is not cheap, but it's a must have, or perhaps loose all.

 

[indy_500]

Okay, if someone goes off trail, onto the Power Line, or any kind of ROW, or just personal property, who ever they gets hurt badly, who's insurance covers the either him, or her? Seems to me the landowner is responsible? I have 3 right-of-ways on my properties, on 2 different farms. My insurance would be liable for any kind of accident, or injury, on those 3 ROW's as it's still my property. So as I have a meeting set up for later today with my insurance agent, and will check it out. Insurance is not cheap, but it's a must have, or perhaps loose all.

TOTALLY understand, but if a bicyclist cut across your property every day to save time on his daily bike ride, you would never know, until 1 day bam he hits a tree and breaks his arm and sues you. Does everyone jump on the ban all bicyclists bandwagon? No.

I’m not trying show any disrespect here, I just think the thought of us snowmobilers getting such a black eye because we leave behind a track in the snow, is so crazy. Unfortunately it’s something we as snowmobilers have to deal with.

 

[katden4]

I agree, and that’s why is so important to stay on the marked trail. With social media so strong, it makes it so easy for people to complain, weather it’s legit or not. I started riding off trail 20 years or go or more. When we first started even then I was so worried about staying off private land we always used a guide. Now, I am sure many reading this are laughing, but we didn’t have all the apps of todays technology, and I wasn’t going to risk being the guy that pissed off a landowner.

 

[pclark]

Not directly addressed to Indy but just to address the comment which I know is shared by others.

One of the reasons is because there is a large and very organized movement of non-motorized or silent sports people in the area. Many, if not most of these folks would love to eliminate all motorized sports and will take advantage of any bad behavior by us.

It isn't obvious if your only exposure to the area is while visiting to ride sleds, ATV's or to wake board. You generally will not run into many of these people in the bars or out on the sled trails. While there is some overlap, mostly it's simply a different crowd than us.

But you will run into them if you belong to one of the cross country ski, or snowshoeing, or kayaking, or bicycling groups in the area. Or if you live in the area and are involved in the local community affairs.

An example is Winman trails in Winchester. They have over 1300 acres (and growing) dedicated to silent sports and it is heavily utilized. In 2021 they had over 47,000 individual visitors, nearly 1,000 a week.

And the main sled trail between Presque Isle and Mannitowish Waters passes right through this property and crosses several of their trails. The users of their property have to watch and yield to us as we rip by. At this point I think we're lucky this very busy sled trail is still allowed to pass through their ground.

There are at least two organized movements in the Presque Isle area that I know of working to promote silent sports. These folks don't want us or ATV's operating in the area. The only thing protecting us is the clubs and the local businesses that profit from us.

And this is just in the Presque Isle and Winchester area. I'm sure it is similar in Mannitowish Waters and other areas.

Tim, I live in Manitowish Waters and you have described the situation pretty well. Winman is 6 miles from us and very popular, even I did not realize that the snowmobile trail to PI runs through their property so I learned something today. And yes, the 5 towns of MW, PI, BJ, Winchester, and Plum Lake are becoming anti-SXS/ATV and more silent sport. I think people best take notice of this and keep their sleds on the marked trail, thats what private landowners want, Come on folks, the marked trails are wider and wider now, can't we just behave ourselves and keep within the stakes? Is it that hard?

 

[goofy600]

Indy, I truly get your point and most landowners are pretty tolerant and know there are only a few bad apples. But years of small amounts of bad apples adds up and eventually they have enough. Homeless person walks your sidewalk every day no big deal, now they decide to come in your backyard and sleep what do you do? Same point just a different situation.

 

[dfattack]

I’m not getting Abe’s example of someone who trespasses will need to be covered on the landowners insurance?? So are we supposed to put up “enter at your own risk” signs right next to “no trespassing” signs, which would certainly be a mixed message. I have 90 acres up north and I don’t have any insurance on that property. If someone trespasses WITHOUT permission I can’t see how I’m liable for him running into a tree on his ATV. Something isn’t right.

 

[goofy600]

DF I would agree. I know when I had more land that I did post the no trespassing signs, but with lawyers and society today anything can happen. Most home owners insurance does have built in coverage for situations like that.

 

[SledTL]

Tim, I live in Manitowish Waters and you have described the situation pretty well. Winman is 6 miles from us and very popular, even I did not realize that the snowmobile trail to PI runs through their property so I learned something today. And yes, the 5 towns of MW, PI, BJ, Winchester, and Plum Lake are becoming anti-SXS/ATV and more silent sport. I think people best take notice of this and keep their sleds on the marked trail, thats what private landowners want, Come on folks, the marked trails are wider and wider now, can't we just behave ourselves and keep within the stakes? Is it that hard?

Is it really that bad up there? I feel that groups get along pretty dang well here in MN. Never heard anyone say we are shutting this down for sleds but lets open it for skis, etc. Maybe its because there is way more public land here?

 

[dfattack]

DF I would agree. I know when I had more land that I did post the no trespassing signs, but with lawyers and society today anything can happen. Most home owners insurance does have built in coverage for situations like that.

What if there isn’t a home on the land? No need for insurance…

 

[goofy600]

What if there isn’t a home on the land? No need for insurance…

Not an insurance guy, so can’t answer that. That would be a question for your insurance person which I’m sure would want to sell you some, maybe a better question call the state where the land is and ask them if are you liable for trespassers on vacant land. It may be able to tie to your homeowners policy?

 

[whitedust]

What if there isn’t a home on the land? No need for insurance…

I have waterfront property insured to max. Never know when some moron will trespass on shoreline. Hasn’t been a problem here very steep shoreline but up north campers from the federal camp grounds made to my house a couple of times wanted a ride back to camp grounds. Lol

 

[dfattack]

I spoke with my insurance agent about coverage on vacant land not adjacent to land with a residence. At least with State Farm if you have homeowners coverage there is an extension that covers land you own even if its out of state. Agent indicated that there has been cases where if the land owner was negligent in some way there has been payouts. However, as everyone knows anyone can sue anyone for anything. That doesn't mean they would prevail and at least with my insurance company they would represent me if needed. Kinda sucks thinking that someone tresspassing on my land with an ATV could hit and tree and sue me. That is nuts.

 

[wiscrev]

I spoke with my insurance agent about coverage on vacant land not adjacent to land with a residence. At least with State Farm if you have homeowners coverage there is an extension that covers land you own even if its out of state. Agent indicated that there has been cases where if the land owner was negligent in some way there has been payouts. However, as everyone knows anyone can sue anyone for anything. That doesn't mean they would prevail and at least with my insurance company they would represent me if needed. Kinda sucks thinking that someone tresspassing on my land with an ATV could hit and tree and sue me. That is nuts.

Only winners are the Lawyers! And a very good friend of mine is a lawyer.

 

[ddhanna]

Wisconsin has a statute commonly referred to as the "berry picking law". A landownwer cannot be held liable for injury when someone is recreating on their land. They can be sued but it will not win. The insurance that clubs carry is cheap because insurance companies realize there not much at stake, other than representation.

 

[goofy600]

I spoke with my insurance agent about coverage on vacant land not adjacent to land with a residence. At least with State Farm if you have homeowners coverage there is an extension that covers land you own even if its out of state. Agent indicated that there has been cases where if the land owner was negligent in some way there has been payouts. However, as everyone knows anyone can sue anyone for anything. That doesn't mean they would prevail and at least with my insurance company they would represent me if needed. Kinda sucks thinking that someone tresspassing on my land with an ATV could hit and tree and sue me. That is nuts.

Pretty much what I figured, but doesn’t hurt to check. And again it all about how bad someone wants to prove something in a lawsuit. Neighbor is going through something similar over a lake easement the guy isn’t going to win but keeps throwing bad money at it and my neighbor has to do the same so he will be counter suing for his money back when done. That is just how stupid and or rich some people are.

 

[rp7x]

my 2 kids shoot so much on my land we will never see a tresspaser, never any walking

 

[dfattack]

my 2 kids shoot so much on my land we will never see a tresspaser, never any walking

I do the same but for some reason the deer don't get scared away!

 

[wisco-mb]

Lot of good points brought up here. Unfortunately it's up to us as sledders to figure this out. I feel the youth are not educated enough.
I feel younger riders have no idea how trails are started and maintained. And you cannot leave the marked trail otherwise it's trespassing. They just see fresh snow and want to take it. I was guilty of this when I was late teens. I didn't realize the issues it caused. Comes down to educating. I know trespassing is covered in the safety manual, but should be stressed even more. Who is responsible for educating? Should come down to the parents, any other riders. You cannot give the clubs another task list. Their list is long enough already. They already have to deal with landowner issues.
One issue we run into down in SC WI, is new landowners. We have had great relationships with the older farming generations. Usually no big deal if some corners are cut, and if they get out of the blazes a little bit(just no crop damage). Pretty easy going folks. Now, we are seeing them pass. Usually two scenarios, the kids get the land to keep(usually hunting purpose only, and rent fields to neighbor for tilling), or they sell it. The new owner usually always buys it for hunting purposes only. They see snowmobiling as a threat to their precious deer. Most we can talk them into keeping, or trying it on a yearly basis. Some do give a hard no right away. The biggest thing with new, younger owners is that they like to flex. It's their land, and you better know it! They have literally asked us to move a trail 25-50' for some odd reasons. We see this a lot. They just want to give direction, and flex to make certain we know it's their property. Just very weird. And a lot of times, it's spoiled kids/grandkids who just happen to get an inheritance. Nothing earned or bought. You combine that with seeing some tracks out the blazes, and they get very irritated. We have to respect that since it's there land. Like Indy said, with snow they see every track. Probably not causing any issue, but it is their land and need to respect it.

FYI - For anyone that uses Polaris Ride command, you can now turn on Land Owner info. You can see the land parcel and owner info. No plat book needed any more.

 

[goofy600]

Well stated. I do have a question, out of the younger generation riding, example the 20somethings how many have taken a snowmobile safety class. And not sure once you can drive car do you need snowmobile safety class. Maybe it should be mandatory to take and don’t let the register a sled without having class. That would at least make people listen to the rules?

 

[Tim in Indiana]

I’m not getting Abe’s example of someone who trespasses will need to be covered on the landowners insurance?? So are we supposed to put up “enter at your own risk” signs right next to “no trespassing” signs, which would certainly be a mixed message. I have 90 acres up north and I don’t have any insurance on that property. If someone trespasses WITHOUT permission I can’t see how I’m liable for him running into a tree on his ATV. Something isn’t right.

I fully understand Abe's comments. I had the exact thing happen to me. I had a guy trespassing on my land fall 21 feet when the straps on one of his stands broke. He really messed himself up, broken collarbone, femur, some broken ribs and a punctured lung. Nearly died.

We figure he was unconscious at least two hours and when he woke he was able to call a friend. He must of passed out again because he didn't tell his friend where he was. The friend come down my drive and stopped at my house asking if I knew the guy, which I didn't. We hopped in the UTV and went back into the far 40 and I found him about 30 feet off the trail and nearly a mile off the road.

The EMT's used our UTV to haul him out and they airlifted him to a big hospital. I immediately contacted my insurance company informing them that he did not have permission and was trespassing. They still paid him the medical limits on my policy. It was either $25k or $50k which was a drop in the bucket of his total. He could have sued for the balance but didn't. He actually came around a year or so later and thanked me for finding him.

You are responsible for anyone who comes on your property, period.

And in my experience the snowmobile trail lease agreement indemnifies the land hold for a defined trail, not the whole property.