Smoking Ban?? Update??

thebluff

Member
not sure I want to get involved in this one...but oh well. what about the non-bar and food businsses in MI that are also in the ban...it extends way past what is discussed.

My store here in Mass was smoking before I bought it, we made it a no-smoking facility (even though the wife smoked) as we thought it best. I am sure some guys moved on as they couldnt sit and smoke any longer. I own a tanning salon-ATT store, smoking would be bad for business (my guess) however that is no longer my choice.

Almost every business I have seen is in violation of the law. Very few have the required signs posted at every (or any) entrance. Kudos to the VFW guys for towing the line on this one.

I often wonder how mankind survived for thousands of years without all these crazy laws to protect us????

My talks with the local establishments (bars) all say that business is down dramatically, more than the economy and the season were showing.
 

rmk4ever

New member
Well at least my helmet wont stink after lunch or dinner at any one of the fine establishments in the north woods. That stink is in there til you get back to the cabin & spray some foo-foo in there, then it's just some wild FUNK!
 
L

lenny

Guest
Lenny for president

like we didn't see this coming!!!!!

When I was a kid I remember restaurants designating areas of the place to non-smoking which was usually a joke, not always but often. Than we saw better ventilation which was a fair improvement and initiated by the owner to accommodate the masses, the minority was the smoker (20%.)
I tend to believe that % is indicative of smokers to non-smokers in bars and restaurants. Seeing that smoking is addicting, I tend to believe a smokers addiction robs them of some basic social behaviors. For example, I often see cigarette butts flying out the window, now compare that to other items flying out the window and you'll see smokers don't take responsibility for their own habit, they don't want their butts in their own car so they go out the window. It's clear smokers are the largest litterers on the road or in public. A fair majority of smokers throw the butts on the ground and out the window, it's easy. Just as they light up, directed by the addiction, they throw the butts out in the same way. Where they smoke is a similar concept. The addiction leads them to smoke when ever they crave a toke thus giving up the consideration to others around them, and remember, smokers make up 20% so the other 80% are making decisions to sniff or not to sniff. If the majority of smokers had been considerate of others than we would not be dealing with this ban. I understand not all smokers are the same and many are responsible for their habit. I know a few that do a good job being considerate and see others post on here that say the same but in general most are ruled by the addiction and smoke when and where they want with little or no thought to others. The majority of smokers brought this upon society as a result of their actions.

Here's my point, smokers could have avoided this imposing mandate if the addiction didn't rob them of a considerate notion to respect the person next to them. I disagree with much of big bro's involvement in our lives but I give them a big thumbs up for this one. I hear so much of we as citizens loosing our rights but that is backwards thinking, we give it away because we are lazy people and don't take responsibility for how we interact in society.

Same thing with pot, the revenue will take precedence over the result of the behavior. I was a pot head for 6 years, got high morning, noon and night. I know exactly what happens to a person who smokes dope and the last thing we need is a society of high people, loosing ambition, not relating to their own families who don't get high. People in different frames of mind don't associate well and families will suffers along with the individuals getting high, along with other residual affects. It's a bad idea driven by $ signs.

Should we have public drunkenness, public sexual conduct, public vulgarity, etc,,,,, NO. There are social behaviors that are imposed on society and when society fights back someone wins. You can see it for what it is or pass the buck and blame someone else, become paranoid and spread propaganda, fight against the majority of society and demand other to suffer due to lack of respect. Fitting in society means compromising to a degree just as a husband and wife do in a marriage.

Smokers brought this to the table and now it has been taken away. I have friends that are smokers and have no ill feelings towards them for smoking, they are good people just like most people. They are family, friends and neighbors, they simply have a habit that brought this consequence

I realize this thread is based on seeing the result of the ban. With that said, there are going to be some who hate the ban and will not go out. I see it somewhat comical how we speculate that this ban is responsible for the decline in business, especially in a depressed economy which throws a lot of elements of uncertainty into the mix. I personally asked 1 local bar here in Greenland and find the answer to be "not much had changed."


;) LENNY FOR PRESIDENT!!!!!!!!!!!!:)
 
L

lenny

Guest
not sure I want to get involved in this one...but oh well. what about the non-bar and food businsses in MI that are also in the ban...it extends way past what is discussed.

My store here in Mass was smoking before I bought it, we made it a no-smoking facility (even though the wife smoked) as we thought it best. I am sure some guys moved on as they couldnt sit and smoke any longer. I own a tanning salon-ATT store, smoking would be bad for business (my guess) however that is no longer my choice.

Almost every business I have seen is in violation of the law. Very few have the required signs posted at every (or any) entrance. Kudos to the VFW guys for towing the line on this one.

I often wonder how mankind survived for thousands of years without all these crazy laws to protect us????

My talks with the local establishments (bars) all say that business is down dramatically, more than the economy and the season were showing.

Matt, when you open up a store to the public you are under many regulations set forth by the local and federal gov. How is it you see this unfit but would support a food inspection if a roach crawled on you cookie at the bakery or would want a public structure to be safe for your family. Fact is, smoking is harmful to the human body and a public business needs to be considerate of all the public. It's reasonable to have a law protecting people from other people, especially in public. I can see how you don't like being told what to do, nor would I probably but when the public is involved you do what's best for the majority and sending the minority outside to harm only themselves seems more reasonable than to ask force the majority out the door. I commend you for taking a stand when you bought the store and making it a NO smoking place but fact is most store owners would not do that and so we are where we are, at the same place in a different way. We know the smoker ain't gonna do the right thing and be considerate.

I speak in general terms here people, don't hate me just because I'm right. I could have said beautiful but Madonna said that, right?
 

russholio

Well-known member
Matt, when you open up a store to the public you are under many regulations set forth by the local and federal gov. How is it you see this unfit but would support a food inspection if a roach crawled on you cookie at the bakery or would want a public structure to be safe for your family. Fact is, smoking is harmful to the human body and a public business needs to be considerate of all the public. It's reasonable to have a law protecting people from other people, especially in public. I can see how you don't like being told what to do, nor would I probably but when the public is involved you do what's best for the majority and sending the minority outside to harm only themselves seems more reasonable than to ask force the majority out the door. I commend you for taking a stand when you bought the store and making it a NO smoking place but fact is most store owners would not do that and so we are where we are, at the same place in a different way. We know the smoker ain't gonna do the right thing and be considerate.

I speak in general terms here people, don't hate me just because I'm right. I could have said beautiful but Madonna said that, right?

Difference is, the clientele usually doesn't see what goes on in the kitchen, their housekeeping habits, sanitary condition, etc. The owner and/or management wouldn't dream of letting the general public into the kitchen. That's why we have inspectors do it for us. When you walk into an establishment you know right away (especially if they were to post signs) whether it's smoking or non-smoking, and you can make your decision to patronize it based on that.
 

toolmaker

New member
Thumbs up Lenny!
I don't agree with most things the government does, but this was the right thing to do. With the ban state wide the playing field is even for all businesses. Not just select cities.
If a smoker is boycotting their favorite bars and resturants, then maybe they weren't such great customers in the first place. I never let smokers stop me from going into a place, but I sure didn't stick around long if was bad inside.

PS: Have you ever looked at the ground around stop signs and lights. They seem to be official ash tray dumping grounds.
 

frnash

Active member
The owner and/or management wouldn't dream of letting the general public into the kitchen. That's why we have inspectors do it for us.
Funny thing, we have had a number of restaurants in Phoenix whose primary entrance to the dining room is/was through the kitchen!

Durant's for one; they must be doing something right, they've been here for 50+ years and are still going strong!

A 'nuther memorable one (circa the 1970s) was the Arizona Ambassador, nominally a ranch style hotel, 'twas located at 335 W. Maryland Avenue (see postcard image here), and the entrance to the dining room was just off the parking lot, through the immaculate, spotless kitchen.

The restaurant walls were covered with framed caricature drawings of assorted famous folks, presumably customers.

Omigosh the steaks! Like a 3" thick dinner-plate sized porterhouse(!), for what, $12-$14 at the time? No, really! Awsome!

The Ambassador was rumored to have been owned by the Mafia. I wouldn't be surprised, who else could afford to sell such steaks for that price? (A money laundering operation? Who knows.) The property was converted into a bunch o' condos quite a while ago, but what memories!

Lots o' politicians and assorted other power brokers used to hang out in both places (still so for Durant's), thus the immaculate kitchens, county health inspectors or no.
 
Last edited:

cat_man_mike

New member
I wonder if any of you "patriots" who think "big brother is taking away all of our rights" know anyone who worked in a smoking establishment that developed lung cancer after a life of never smoking? Probably not, otherwise I imagine your oppinion on the matter may be a little different. You may say "nobody forced them to work there." But if that is this person's occupation, what choice do they have? Ask to work in the "non smoking" area that is right next to the smoking section in a resturaunt of 20 tables? This law is all about endangering others. Nobody says you have to stop smoking, they are saying that you can't infect the family of 4 sitting next to you trying to have a nice night out.
 
L

lenny

Guest
Difference is, the clientele usually doesn't see what goes on in the kitchen, their housekeeping habits, sanitary condition, etc. The owner and/or management wouldn't dream of letting the general public into the kitchen. That's why we have inspectors do it for us. When you walk into an establishment you know right away (especially if they were to post signs) whether it's smoking or non-smoking, and you can make your decision to patronize it based on that.

Not exactly, when I was in high school, I walked by a bakery daily. One morning I ordered a glazed jelly filled "Bismark" (my favorite.) When the lady asked what I wanted I pointed to my favorite and as soon as she reached for it a roach crawled off the backside and on to her thumb. She didn't see it or feel it and like a moron I didn't say anything until I got outside and grew a nad or two. I went back in and the roach was till in da bag. I pointed it out and she gave me another one (like it was any better). My point is weather you see it or not makes no matter. Regulations are set in place for a purpose, not for us to see but to be effective. You don't see the quality of workmanship in the walls with plumbing and electric but you want assurance a light fan is not going to fall off the ceiling because no bracing was used on the box.

maybe I don't understand you point?
 

booondocker

New member
The smoking ban was put in place to protect the workers from smoke. It was state wide so that the few who did put a ban in effect would not unload his customers to a guy down the block who didn't put a ban into effect. Since eating establishments could never get together as a town, city or village and say...no smoking...it was done state wide to protect the workers and everyone else who didn't smoke, but might just as well have smoked after going into a place that allowed it.

A couple months ago, my nephew had his son's first birthday party at a shooting club. He had reserved the place on a sunday afternoon, but someone messed up, and the last day of a shooting tournament took place in the other half of the hall. After the shoot many came in and proceeded to smoke the place up, which the other half was having a 50 person party for the kid.

There was nothing that could be done, but those who smoked didn't care that the place was reserved for the party, and even though they were not rowdy, they sat and smoked the whole place up.

I left with a headach, of course, but even more importantly there were a dozen kids there running around and inhaling second hand smoke.

I agree that it seems that most smokers don't seem to give a hoot about the effects and knowledge regarding second hand smoke. But they could have smoked one butt, and then quit but most just smoked away. It was very rude behavior.

It is this insenativity that Lenny talks about that got the smoking ban put in place.

I can't imagine how anyone can lay the smoking ban to blame for the "lower numbers" in a bar...as the economy will influence that number dramatically.

It is something that some really gripe about, but for the most part, I am glad it happened, wished cops would write tickets for the butt out the window routine, and they should mandate that all tobacco related taxes go to promoting non-smoking and give those who want to quit free meds and devices so that they can get unhooked too. It is the right thing to do.

So if you smoke, I hope the next time you are about to light up, you take a good hard look around yourself and see if there are any other people NOT smoking and make the unselfish choice to NOT smoke. If you do that, then you become a winner twice.
 

ubee

New member
kind of funny going thru town at midnight and seeing people outside the bars lighting up there indian killers ! I wonder how its going to be once the snow flies! food sure tastes better in the pubs nowadays! now we need to get the 2 smokes off the trails !!! lmao!!
 

ditchcrusher

New member
I think the ban in Iowa has been in place for two years now. I would bet there hasn't been one business that has closed because of the ban. Everyone will get over it. In a year you will wonder why they didn't do it sooner. I do have to laugh my arse off as I am supposed to have a "no smoking" sign in my pizza delivery truck. I own it and am the only one that drives it.

DC
 

russholio

Well-known member
Not exactly, when I was in high school, I walked by a bakery daily. One morning I ordered a glazed jelly filled "Bismark" (my favorite.) When the lady asked what I wanted I pointed to my favorite and as soon as she reached for it a roach crawled off the backside and on to her thumb. She didn't see it or feel it and like a moron I didn't say anything until I got outside and grew a nad or two. I went back in and the roach was till in da bag. I pointed it out and she gave me another one (like it was any better). My point is weather you see it or not makes no matter. Regulations are set in place for a purpose, not for us to see but to be effective. You don't see the quality of workmanship in the walls with plumbing and electric but you want assurance a light fan is not going to fall off the ceiling because no bracing was used on the box.

maybe I don't understand you point?

Okay, so maybe there are exceptions....but I dare say they're not the norm. My point is: MOST of the time, the clientele is not welcome to inspect an establishment's kitchen to see if they meet their expectations for cleanliness and sanitary practices. Or to see if they're up to snuff with their fire protection systems, if you want to carry it a bit further. It just isn't practical to let the general public do that, so there are inspectors (usually government employees, be it state, county, or local) who do it for us and give us their stamp of approval that they believe it's safe to dine there.

On the other hand....I'm quite capable of figuring out for myself whether an establishment is smoking (in the not-so-old days) or non-smoking. My eyes and nose tell me this. I'm also quite capable of deciding for myself whether I want to patronize it or not; I don't need a government that can't even take care of itself make that decision for me. If I don't like Italian food, I don't go to an Italian restaurant. If I don't like the way the food tastes at a restaurant, I don't go. If I don't like what goes on in a nudie bar, I don't go to it. It's really pretty simple.

While I agree with your previous post about the littering problem, I'm pretty sure that littering wasn't the government's concern when it decided to enact this ban. I think it had more to do with the health and safety of non-smokers.

I think most reasonable people would agree that smoking is bad for you, and that second-hand smoke is bad for you, and I would be the first to concur with that. Am I going to be disappointed because I can now go to the bar and come home without my clothes reeking? Not in the least. But I AM disappointed that the government feels the need to ban a legal activity (filthy as it may be) instead of letting the individual business owner decide whether he/she wants to allow it, and employees/patrons whether they care to expose themselves to it.

Sorry for the long rant and for getting off the original intent of the thread...I'm off the floor.
 

coldbear

New member
Here in SW Ohio our local Moose had over 10,000 members before our smokers ban. Today there is 6700 members strong. We still have a smoking garden outside, but several members simply opt to stop and pick up a case of suds and drink at home. First they stop the smoking ,tell you what to eat,tell you what time to mow your grass,etc.etc.etc. It get's old quick! Didn't our ancestors leave Europe to get away from this crap?
 

Admin

Administrator
Staff member
My apologies to those that will be offended by the following.

Smoking is a vial, disgusting and toxic habit that not only impacts the health of smokers, but those around the smokers. I hate to break it to you, but smoking is not a right. It is a PRIVILEGE. Much like driving a car. I am not a constitutional legal expert, but someone point out to me in the Bill of Rights or Constitution where is says you have the RIGHT to smoke. There have been laws in place designating who can smoke and where smoking can be done for many many years and this latest law is an attempt to further provide for a clean living environment for the population of our state and country.

For those that scream that it is an infringement of their personal right or the right of the business owner to allow smoking to go on where they please, why are you not screaming about the government not allowing the dumping of toxins into our air, rivers, lakes and land? I mean smoking is dumping toxins into the air too?

Some argue that non smokers have the right to choose not to go to an establishment that allows smoking. What about the right of non smokers to breathe air that is not contaminated. What if I wanted to open up a chemical plant that spewed the same toxins smoking spews out across the street from where you live? I don't think all of you anti-government, patriotic militia men would go for that and would more than likely USE the government and it's resources to stop it from happening.

The bottom line is it is ridiculous that smoking is even allowed in this day and age. I understand the addictive properties of smoking and I am not proposing a ban on all smoking. For about 10 years, I have had an idea that we should make it illegal for anyone to start smoking. How could that be done? Well, you just enact a law that says something like: Anyone born after December 31st of 2010 can not smoke. That way you are not forcing those that do smoke to quit and go through the torture of quitting. Yet you are stopping future generations from smoking. Someone born after that date would be really stupid to start smoking because then they would have someone purchase for them (like liquor now) for the rest of their lives! It would also allow farmers, cigarette makers and anyone else making a living off the activity to have 65-70 years to diversify and find a new way of making a living before their industry went away.

I do have sympathy for smokers. I have yet to find a smoker that is happy they smoke. Some are indifferent and many have tried and would do just about anything to quit. But the bottom line is folks. It's a privilege and not a right and not that I am for lots of new laws, but one that can save lives and improve the quality of living for all of us is fine by me.

-John
 

Admin

Administrator
Staff member
With all my ranting, I forgot to give my input on things up here in the bars. From what I have seen and talked to business owners, there has not been much of a negative impact. I would suspect that some of the "dive" bars- the ones who's clientèle were comprised of mainly hard core smokers and drinkers, might be seeing a down trend in business, but most of the bars up here (even the "dives") seem to be status quo. Many have patrons that just step outside for a smoke and then go in and drink.

-John
 
F

fusion

Guest
Incredible I could disagree to such a degree. Smoking is not a right, it is a priviledge? Huh? They made smoking legal hundreds of years ago, and they also made it legal for companies to grow and process tobacco, and make cigarettes. Smoking, unlike drinking, has never been illegal as far as I know. So how can you possibly say something that is legal to do is a priviledge and not a right? I've never seen anyone written a ticket an prosecuted in a court of law for smoking in their home, yard, ballgame or bar. This may change in the future IF and WHEN they make smoking illegal and all the tobacco companies in the US go out of business or move their operations overseas just like oil and gas exploration and refinery. I swear to God, ever since this idiot got elected and has proceeded to attempt to socialize the country into a European nation, people have been doing nothing but going OFF the deep end. Do I have a problem with taking smoking out of bars and restaurants? Not at all. But that doesn't mean the next step is to make it entirely illegal.

Yes, soft drinks make you fat from too much sugar, and so does excessively eating chocolate and fried chicken and the list goes on an on. So do we ban all products and foods that have the slightest chance of harming ONE individual? This is about personal choice as Americans - the great principles this country was founded on. Government is not the solution to all our problems - government IS the problem. End rant.
 
Top