How about 1992. You can't smoke if you're not 18. Those people shouldn't have started yet.
Smoking Ban?? Update??
- Thread starter bryan t
- Start date
How about 1992. You can't smoke if you're not 18. Those people shouldn't have started yet.
Try having a minor purchase cigarettes and tell me if they get arrested (or should) And I repeat, show me in the bill of rights where it is a right and not a privilege and I will retract what I said.
Problem is, for so long, smokers have been allowed to do what they want where they want, it practically became a right.
-John
Driving is legal, but regulated, and NOT a right. As far as I know, it has never been illegal either.
Boy, my libertarian side is very conflicted with my happy side I don't have to breathe that crap in the pub anymore.
L
lenny
Guest
People, lets remember what we are talking about here, a unhealthy behavior that effects the guy next to you. It's unfortunate smokers gave away a freedom but don't loose site of why it's bye bye and blame others for doing the job you yourselves neglected to do. Even of your a non smoker and oppose this regulation, blame the cause not the authority. Work to see this not happen again. if smokers want to cry and stay home, good for them, they'll cool down and miss their friends soon and they'll be with the others outside the door smoking.
there are always those who will have an extreme position on matters. This one seems to be driven by speculation, meaning, there is a conspiracy to strip people of their freedoms. You wanna smoke, knock yourself out just don't take me down with you. Keep you personal habits out of my lungs. Since you failed to be respectful and put your smoke out there for all to sniff and than said if you don't like it, GO AWAY, you got what you had coming. YEA, it's a crying shame the gov had to do it. I do not believe it was the best way but was there another way? Oh yea, you already said I could just go work in a different local or stop going to places I liked because of the smoke but do you see the huge sacrifice I would be making to accommodate the small disrespectful act of smoking next to someone.
I sometimes slip and spew vulgar words and if it's in front of my family I apologize. I avoid offending people out of respect. lets have some respect for others and not allow an addiction to rob us of freedoms
I still maintain that the decline of morality will be the downfall of the US. We were a country founded on christian principles and as we evolve into a Godless society, all kinds of good will appear bad and all kinds of bad will appear to be good. I am not one to speculate when the final day will be here but how much lower can we go. We have a divisive split gov, libs hate conser's, dem's hate rep's, whites hate blacks and now day the blacks hate whites publicly. Today we see the possibility of a $100,000,000 13 story mosque ot ground zero! Our own president says we are no longer a Christian nation. Is this based on the percentage of confessed Christians to non christian or the irrelevancy of Christian principles in our society today, I believe it's the later. Look out people, it's just starting, we have not seen nothing yet.
I often rant but understanding is bridged by communication.
there are always those who will have an extreme position on matters. This one seems to be driven by speculation, meaning, there is a conspiracy to strip people of their freedoms. You wanna smoke, knock yourself out just don't take me down with you. Keep you personal habits out of my lungs. Since you failed to be respectful and put your smoke out there for all to sniff and than said if you don't like it, GO AWAY, you got what you had coming. YEA, it's a crying shame the gov had to do it. I do not believe it was the best way but was there another way? Oh yea, you already said I could just go work in a different local or stop going to places I liked because of the smoke but do you see the huge sacrifice I would be making to accommodate the small disrespectful act of smoking next to someone.
I sometimes slip and spew vulgar words and if it's in front of my family I apologize. I avoid offending people out of respect. lets have some respect for others and not allow an addiction to rob us of freedoms
I still maintain that the decline of morality will be the downfall of the US. We were a country founded on christian principles and as we evolve into a Godless society, all kinds of good will appear bad and all kinds of bad will appear to be good. I am not one to speculate when the final day will be here but how much lower can we go. We have a divisive split gov, libs hate conser's, dem's hate rep's, whites hate blacks and now day the blacks hate whites publicly. Today we see the possibility of a $100,000,000 13 story mosque ot ground zero! Our own president says we are no longer a Christian nation. Is this based on the percentage of confessed Christians to non christian or the irrelevancy of Christian principles in our society today, I believe it's the later. Look out people, it's just starting, we have not seen nothing yet.
I often rant but understanding is bridged by communication.
F
fusion
Guest
Yes of course it is regulated and children under 18 cannot smoke. I thought that was understood, and therefore not iterated. My apologies for not dumbing down the diatribe to the level of the readers. But lets not kid ourselves - when I was 14, 15, 16, I still got my hands on cigarettes and I smoked and guess what - never arrested and thrown in jail. But that aside, ONCE OVER 18 it is legal and therefore not a priviledge - you have a legal right to do it, of course at your own risk. I personally am smart enought to know, (quit 1978) smoking is terribly bad for you. But the guy next store that eats fried chicken 3 nights a week and bacon everyday for breakfast, he's at risk of an early heart attack, so I guess we should make eating anything but vegetables and fruits illegal too? This is such a ridiculous argument to be had in the land of the free, I struggle even typing a response. Government will NEVER illegalize tobacco and you all know why - they make way, way too much money on the tax revenue stream. Government on crack with taxation. They could never let that go. Same for liquor and beer. People drive everyday or screw themselves up drinking to excess, but the government will never do anything about that either - they need the tax revenue. Socialistic society's are doomed to failure. Big topic for a snowmobile website.
fusion-
I think the confusion (pardon the pun) is that I use the term "right" literally and not figuratively. Meaning it only applies to true rights, things that are guaranteed in the Bill of Rights. They can ONLY be changed with a constitutional amendment. All else is a privilege and can be taken away by simple changes to the law in your town, county, state or at the national level.
Like I said, smoking has been so unregulated for so long, it gained the perception that it was a right, but is by definition a privilege.
The simple fact that these laws have been enacted at the local or state level proves that smoking is not protected by the Bill of Rights.
As for the analogy about your neighbor. The HUGE difference is that they are only harming themselves with their actions. Not others. Smoking harms all -including those that do not smoke.
I get a strong feeling that your argument is way more than just laws enacted to stop smoking in places like restaurants and bars, it is about any government involvement. That is a totally different argument than what I thought was going on here and not one that I care to get involved with because: 1) It is political and not allowed on the board and 2) It is a matter of opinion and no one has the 100% right answer all the time when it comes to opinions.
-John
I think the confusion (pardon the pun) is that I use the term "right" literally and not figuratively. Meaning it only applies to true rights, things that are guaranteed in the Bill of Rights. They can ONLY be changed with a constitutional amendment. All else is a privilege and can be taken away by simple changes to the law in your town, county, state or at the national level.
Like I said, smoking has been so unregulated for so long, it gained the perception that it was a right, but is by definition a privilege.
The simple fact that these laws have been enacted at the local or state level proves that smoking is not protected by the Bill of Rights.
As for the analogy about your neighbor. The HUGE difference is that they are only harming themselves with their actions. Not others. Smoking harms all -including those that do not smoke.
I get a strong feeling that your argument is way more than just laws enacted to stop smoking in places like restaurants and bars, it is about any government involvement. That is a totally different argument than what I thought was going on here and not one that I care to get involved with because: 1) It is political and not allowed on the board and 2) It is a matter of opinion and no one has the 100% right answer all the time when it comes to opinions.
-John
Firecatguy
New member
so why is it a "right" for smoke shops to have smoking rooms but Bars can not???also if casinos are given the "right" to let people smoke does that not take away from the argument of people heath concern???
why not an equal playing field???I quit many years back but also belive if a guy wants a smoking bar OR a smoke FREE bar thats his "right" as the owner of the place......
I just make it a pvt club!!!
I just feel you have a "right" to choose were you spend your money!!!
why not an equal playing field???I quit many years back but also belive if a guy wants a smoking bar OR a smoke FREE bar thats his "right" as the owner of the place......
I just make it a pvt club!!!
I just feel you have a "right" to choose were you spend your money!!!
Because it is a PRIVILEGE and not a RIGHT!
That is my whole argument. People use the term "right" as if it applies to lots of activities we have (smoking, driving, drinking). Not true and causes lots of confusion and false reasons for argument.
-John
Firecatguy
New member
no argument here........I am one for freedoms and for one group to say "you need to do this cuz I don't like it" gets my undies in a bunch!!!!
and with that said.....very thin line the whole "right" "privilege" thing.....
the greenies don't think sledding is a right either...so we loose more freedoms cuz the LEFT don't think its a "right"........
I come from a family of Bar owners!!!who spent there money to open a Bar...Thier money not yours not the Govt but their money........
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Uh, isn't that the way this country runs for the most part, majority rules. The bigger group of voters gets to tell the rest how it goes, until opinions differ and things are changed?
Unfortunately, sledding is not a right, it is a privilege (you can't ride your sled anywhere you want any time you want). That is why we sledders need to do what Lenny has said and act responsibly, or we may not like the results in the future.
-John
Firecatguy
New member
I believe the more a majority tries to tell a group how to live the more WE need to act...even if you don't agree with their views......
is this not what the NAACP is for!!
LESS GOVERMENT!!!MORE EDUCATION
is this not what the NAACP is for!!
LESS GOVERMENT!!!MORE EDUCATION
Looking at the legality of beer/alcohol is very similar.
You can legally drink, but you cannot legally drink and DRIVE. That is the part that they gov is "protecting" the people who choose not to drink. Just like they have taken it upon themselves to "protect" those who choose not to smoke, but want to go out and socialize in a public environment. Once you are in that public environment, your actions that can affect others are "regulated".
Therefore, it is a PRIVILEGE and not a RIGHT to smoke, drink, or what ever it is you like to do that can affect others.
And to tie it with snowmobiling, it is a PRIVILEGE to ride a snowmobile, not a RIGHT.
You can legally drink, but you cannot legally drink and DRIVE. That is the part that they gov is "protecting" the people who choose not to drink. Just like they have taken it upon themselves to "protect" those who choose not to smoke, but want to go out and socialize in a public environment. Once you are in that public environment, your actions that can affect others are "regulated".
Therefore, it is a PRIVILEGE and not a RIGHT to smoke, drink, or what ever it is you like to do that can affect others.
And to tie it with snowmobiling, it is a PRIVILEGE to ride a snowmobile, not a RIGHT.
Firecatguy
New member
I agree very much with the responsible thing....if smokers acted responsible we would not be going down this road.....same with sledders but I think we can agree that their will always be the one who does not care...
F
fusion
Guest
The only disagreement I would have with your last response is the statement, "smoking harms all - including those that don't smoke". Well guess what, there are situations where an individual can smoke and have zero impact on other people. Out in the woods, in his yard, in his OWN house - any non-confined space. The person has every right to do whats legal as long as they do not effect others. The problem is, I detect a slippery slope here and liberal incrementalism at work. First take away the right to smoke anywhere in public, no matter how confined the space is, then next, take away the right altogether. Again, we quibble about the definition of "rights". If it isn't illegal, IMO it becomes a right. The bill of rights/constituion could never have been so detailed as to specifically define each individual human right. This would never have been practical. And just because it isn't specifically defined or described in the constitution doesn't mean it couldn't be a right.
There are many sides to this story and many points to be debated.
There are many sides to this story and many points to be debated.
Now smoking is a HUMAN right? I'm with you about liberal incrementalism, but come on.
snow_monkey
New member
The local bars in my area have been hit hard by the no smoking ban and business is way down.
thunderstruck88
New member
it is also a privilage to drive as you all have to get a permit to do that it is not a right at all go look at the BILL OF RIGHTS in the Constitution and READ IT ALL OF IT nothing ther about smoking or drinking or driving at all John thank you again for your comments and they make sense to me 
F
fusion
Guest
If it isn't a right, what is it then?
It isn't illegal to smoke, therefore it becomes my right to do it.
To me, a privilege is something that can be taken away at any time for any reason.
But after reading the following, I can see where either could apply.
Dictionary:
Privilege:
1.) Restricted RIGHT or benefit
2.) Special honor
3.) Rights and advantages enjoyed by the elite
Right:
1.) Entitlement or freedom - a justified claim or entitlement or freedom to do something
2.) Morally appropriate thing to do
Nobody told Philip Morris they had " the privilege" to grow, and manufacture cigarettes.
Since the product isn't illegal they have the right, to the extent they are capable of assuming the risk associated with production, to make the product and sell it to the public to make a profit. AND - the government taxes them, AND smokers copiously for their right to do it.
I'm sorry, but I don't get all the semantics about rights vs. privilege. What does it matter?
Until they make it illegal, people will do it. But then, why not repeal prohibition too - and go back to the 1920's.
It's like you've all been reading too many press accounts of Clintons testimony about the meaning of the word "IS". Fine, if it makes you feel better - call it a privilege and I'll call it a right, because either way if I want to fire up a cigar and smoke it, nobody is going to arrest me when I'm out on the boat fishing, drawing on a Muriel.
It isn't illegal to smoke, therefore it becomes my right to do it.
To me, a privilege is something that can be taken away at any time for any reason.
But after reading the following, I can see where either could apply.
Dictionary:
Privilege:
1.) Restricted RIGHT or benefit
2.) Special honor
3.) Rights and advantages enjoyed by the elite
Right:
1.) Entitlement or freedom - a justified claim or entitlement or freedom to do something
2.) Morally appropriate thing to do
Nobody told Philip Morris they had " the privilege" to grow, and manufacture cigarettes.
Since the product isn't illegal they have the right, to the extent they are capable of assuming the risk associated with production, to make the product and sell it to the public to make a profit. AND - the government taxes them, AND smokers copiously for their right to do it.
I'm sorry, but I don't get all the semantics about rights vs. privilege. What does it matter?
Until they make it illegal, people will do it. But then, why not repeal prohibition too - and go back to the 1920's.
It's like you've all been reading too many press accounts of Clintons testimony about the meaning of the word "IS". Fine, if it makes you feel better - call it a privilege and I'll call it a right, because either way if I want to fire up a cigar and smoke it, nobody is going to arrest me when I'm out on the boat fishing, drawing on a Muriel.
A "right" has a legal definition. It is those things that are in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights that the government CANNOT infringe upon. They are limited, but specific...The right to bear arms, free speech and assembly, religion, due process, equal protection, etc. YOU DO NOT HAVE A RIGHT TO SMOKE, OR DRIVE, OR FISH, OR HUNT, OR DRIVE SNOWMOBILES.
Legality of a product has absolutely nothing to do with your rights.
You are confusing use of a product vs. where you are using it. The privilege is not THAT you can use a product, it is WHERE you can use a product. You can drive your car drunk at 100mph on your own land, but driving on a public road is a privilege granted by the state, and you must follow the rules or be punished.
Because society has felt the need to protect itself against unsafe conditions, society has asked its government to regulate the sale of alcohol, food, motel rooms, and to regulate saftey in the workplace. To do this, the government requires business licensing. As a business owner I have no RIGHT to this license, operating a business is a PRIVILEGE that has been granted to me by the state. To maintain that license I must follow a variety of rules or the privilege of being in business will be taken away from me. Since July 5th I can no longer allow smoking. Therefore, when you are using my business I must enforce the rules that allow me to keep my license. The government is not telling you THAT you can't smoke, they are telling you WHERE you can't smoke. And where you can't smoke is in interior spaces of licensed businesses where other people are subjected to this vial habit.
Yes, it is a legal product. No, you can't use it everywhere.
Legality of a product has absolutely nothing to do with your rights.
You are confusing use of a product vs. where you are using it. The privilege is not THAT you can use a product, it is WHERE you can use a product. You can drive your car drunk at 100mph on your own land, but driving on a public road is a privilege granted by the state, and you must follow the rules or be punished.
Because society has felt the need to protect itself against unsafe conditions, society has asked its government to regulate the sale of alcohol, food, motel rooms, and to regulate saftey in the workplace. To do this, the government requires business licensing. As a business owner I have no RIGHT to this license, operating a business is a PRIVILEGE that has been granted to me by the state. To maintain that license I must follow a variety of rules or the privilege of being in business will be taken away from me. Since July 5th I can no longer allow smoking. Therefore, when you are using my business I must enforce the rules that allow me to keep my license. The government is not telling you THAT you can't smoke, they are telling you WHERE you can't smoke. And where you can't smoke is in interior spaces of licensed businesses where other people are subjected to this vial habit.
Yes, it is a legal product. No, you can't use it everywhere.
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F
fusion
Guest
it is also a privilage to drive as you all have to get a permit to do that it is not a right at all go look at the BILL OF RIGHTS in the Constitution and READ IT ALL OF IT nothing ther about smoking or drinking or driving at all John thank you again for your comments and they make sense to me
You won't find anything in the bill of rights about pornography either, yet Playboy has been around forever making a product because they have a right to assume the risk of business to manufacture. If people don't buy the product - they go out of business. Nobody will revoke their privilege to make the product. This isn't trail access we are talking about.
So Playboy has been granted the special honor (privilege) to produce pornography? Or does Playboy have the freedom and entitlement (right) to be in business to produce a product to profit from its sale?
The founding fathers produced the Constitution some 300 years ago. There is no possible way they could have forseen the evolution of the country and free markets to create a document to properly govern or describe every event.